:00:06. > :00:08.time for HARDtalk. The Gaddafi era is over. After four decades of
:00:08. > :00:13.dictatorship Libyans have an opportunity to dismantle his
:00:13. > :00:16.republic of fear and build something better. But will they? My
:00:16. > :00:26.guest today is Hisham Matar, a Libyan novelist, whose own father
:00:26. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :00:58.remains one of the disappeared of the Gaddafi regime. How quickly can
:00:58. > :01:03.Libyans heal their wounds? Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:03. > :01:06.You wrote this just the other day, "We got rid of Gaddafi and I never
:01:06. > :01:12.thought I could write those words." Describe your feelings when you saw
:01:12. > :01:20.the crowds going into Tripoli and then the compound? I felt very
:01:20. > :01:27.moved and fortunate. Fortunate that I was alive to see it. I am young
:01:27. > :01:37.enough to assume that I would see Libya without Gadaffi's rule. But I
:01:37. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:49.doubted how his regime would end. The end that I feared would be the
:01:49. > :01:51.end with him passing away and giving power to one of his children.
:01:51. > :01:56.That would have been terrible for Libya.
:01:56. > :02:00.Was your father in your mind as you watched? Your father had been an
:02:00. > :02:06.activist trying to change Libya for so long. Was he in your mind when
:02:06. > :02:14.this finally happened? My father is so much part of my being. He is
:02:14. > :02:24.never out of my mind. But so many men and women have sacrificed their
:02:24. > :02:30.
:02:30. > :02:34.liberty and their lives for this day. I also think of all the other
:02:34. > :02:37.people that have made this possible. There was a time when after my
:02:37. > :02:41.father's disappearance when he was abducted from his home in Cairo by
:02:41. > :02:44.Egyptian secret services, in 1990, and then handed over to the Libyans,
:02:44. > :02:46.he was taken to Tripoli and tortured and imprisoned without
:02:46. > :02:49.trial and then he eventually disappeared in the prison system.
:02:49. > :02:59.There were dark moments when I wondered about the appropriateness
:02:59. > :03:16.
:03:16. > :03:20.of his sacrifice. Was the historical moment
:03:21. > :03:30.appropriate? Had he been misguided? There were moments when it is a
:03:31. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:41.good idea to sacrifice. There are other moments when there are not
:03:41. > :03:42.
:03:42. > :03:52.enough people around willing to do the same thing. Sacrifice may be
:03:52. > :03:54.
:03:54. > :03:57.wasted. The cause might be right but the moment might be wrong.
:03:57. > :04:00.was a jealous, mournful son thinking this. But the moment that
:04:00. > :04:09.Benghazi was taken and you could see those young people opposite the
:04:09. > :04:13.courthouse chanting, almost all of them were born after Gaddafi. Some
:04:13. > :04:23.of them were born after my father was made to disappear. They were
:04:23. > :04:26.recalling men like my father. They held pictures of men like my father.
:04:26. > :04:31.Suddenly the link was made that these people did not waste their
:04:31. > :04:40.time. They were making the early steps towards this revolution.
:04:40. > :04:50.We both have referred to him as one of the disappeared. This is not a
:04:50. > :04:53.
:04:53. > :04:57.singular story. There are thousands of Libyans who disappeared over the
:04:57. > :05:07.40 years of dictatorship. But the fact is now that there is a real
:05:07. > :05:13.
:05:13. > :05:17.likelihood that they can be some sort of accounting. Dictatorships
:05:17. > :05:27.always leave a trail. There is always some way of finding
:05:27. > :05:40.
:05:40. > :05:47.individuals who know what happened to people.
:05:47. > :05:54.Is that what you want to do now, find out? Yes. It touches on a
:05:54. > :05:57.bigger point about what a revolution needs. It is not just
:05:57. > :06:07.about removing a dictatorship. A revolution is when all things are
:06:07. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:32.taken into account. Both possibilities exist continuously.
:06:32. > :06:34.That is part of the tormenting nature of his appearance. The
:06:34. > :06:37.quality of grief and longing, the disappearance affects people left
:06:37. > :06:41.behind. The inconclusiveness of it. And the self-a rejuvenation of that
:06:41. > :06:45.feeling he already has there. It is always being brought up. Regardless
:06:45. > :06:51.of religious views there is a sense of finality, they do not exist in
:06:51. > :06:56.the world we know. But when somebody disappears the possibility
:06:56. > :07:04.is always there. You are asking yourself questions like, why have I
:07:04. > :07:14.not dreamt of him recently? Or when you do have a dream, what is that
:07:14. > :07:20.dream? You burden all these things with such significance.
:07:20. > :07:25.Over the years you did occasionally see contact from him. A smuggled
:07:25. > :07:31.letter. Once there was a smuggled audio cassette in which your father
:07:31. > :07:37.spoke about his experiences in the 1990s. He spoke about torture in
:07:37. > :07:47.prison. But you have always found it hard to listen to that. I have
:07:47. > :07:53.
:07:53. > :07:56.listened to that tape but it is hard, it is obvious.
:07:56. > :08:06.But the closeness of your relationship, hearing his voice did
:08:06. > :08:08.
:08:08. > :08:18.not hel? I have heard the tape five times over this period. I heard it
:08:18. > :08:23.
:08:23. > :08:26.when it first arrived. I heard it a couple of years later and so on.
:08:26. > :08:30.The difficulty with the tape is that you really get a sense of
:08:30. > :08:34.where he is. You can hear the echo of his voice against the concrete
:08:34. > :08:41.walls. You can hear the emptiness. You can hear the loneliness. He is
:08:41. > :08:48.incredibly alive in the tape. He is completely there. His humour, his
:08:48. > :08:51.anecdotes, his poetry. All of that is there. On some level it is a
:08:51. > :09:01.wonderful human document that shows you how resilient human spirit can
:09:01. > :09:07.
:09:07. > :09:13.be. But I was not able to see all that in the early hearings of the
:09:13. > :09:23.tape. Recently I listened to the tape, one year ago, and I found a
:09:23. > :09:25.
:09:25. > :09:29.very different tape. I was able to not concentrate on how hurt I was
:09:29. > :09:32.an angry I was. I could really listen to my father. I was grateful
:09:32. > :09:40.for that because I heard a very different tape. I heard a hopeful
:09:40. > :09:44.tape. Bizarrely, because what he was really saying is that what he
:09:44. > :09:47.did and what happened to him should not be seen as a tragedy because it
:09:47. > :09:57.was something to celebrate, because he had the will and ability to
:09:57. > :10:02.
:10:02. > :10:07.speak his mind and to face up to a regime that is ruthless. Many
:10:07. > :10:17.people could not do that. I knew what he meant. You see a lot of
:10:17. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:24.broken people in Libya. The regime has managed to humiliate and co-opt
:10:24. > :10:28.so many otherwise good people. I want to talk about the broken
:10:28. > :10:31.people and how they can be mended. But before we get there, just to
:10:31. > :10:36.finish up on your father's story and your search for a conclusion,
:10:36. > :10:46.we sit here in a London TV studio. Will you go to Libya to try to find
:10:46. > :10:46.
:10:46. > :10:53.out the truth? Yes, as a family we have been searching for my father.
:10:53. > :11:03.Obviously now the rebels have reached Tripoli. The prisons are
:11:03. > :11:05.
:11:05. > :11:09.near there. -- reached. So, yes. Here is a difficult question. If by
:11:09. > :11:19.some miracle your father is alive, and do you think it would be easy
:11:19. > :11:24.
:11:24. > :11:28.to re-establish the relationship with him? You will be different and
:11:28. > :11:31.he will be very different. That is another sort of effect of
:11:31. > :11:41.disappearance. That is why it is so strange. Exactly what you mentioned,
:11:41. > :11:55.
:11:55. > :11:59.you change and they changed. Part of it will be effortless. I know
:11:59. > :12:01.that the moment I see my father's face all sorts of emotional and
:12:01. > :12:05.psychological possibilities will open up that are not available to
:12:05. > :12:08.me now. But at the same time that fear of meeting somebody who has
:12:08. > :12:18.been changed so deeply by an incredibly difficult experience is
:12:18. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:24.present. Once I had a dream where I found my father sitting. I woke up
:12:24. > :12:28.in the dream, left the bedroom, went to the living room and found
:12:28. > :12:32.my father sitting there on his own. As I sat next to him he felt
:12:32. > :12:36.slightly nervous and uneasy. As if he sat next to someone he did not
:12:36. > :12:44.know. Then I placed my hand on his shoulder and he stood up and walked
:12:44. > :12:47.away. The dream was about anxiety, about whether he would know me or
:12:47. > :12:50.not. But one encouraging thing recently is that my father's
:12:50. > :13:00.brother who was arrested the same week my father was abducted and put
:13:00. > :13:05.
:13:05. > :13:07.in prison, and he came out with another uncle and two cousins. And
:13:07. > :13:10.a fortnight before the favourite uprising they were released with
:13:10. > :13:17.other prisoners when the Gaddafi dictation were sensing something
:13:17. > :13:27.might happen. So my uncle came out and I have been speaking on the
:13:27. > :13:27.
:13:27. > :13:31.phone to him. It is amazing to see there is only so much you can do to
:13:32. > :13:41.a man. There is only so much you can take away. Everything I
:13:42. > :13:43.
:13:43. > :13:53.remember about my uncle is all I want to pick up something you
:13:53. > :13:56.
:13:56. > :14:00.alluded to about the broken people. You said that in some ways you
:14:00. > :14:10.regard them as more damaged than the victims and you want the
:14:10. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:21.revolution to be about drawing them into Libya's future. The other day
:14:21. > :14:26.a Libyan protester said "I want the right to do to Gaddafi what Gaddafi
:14:26. > :14:35.has done to my loved ones". Isn't that going to be a powerful feeling
:14:35. > :14:39.in Libya right now? Absolutely. I have sensed from the people I have
:14:39. > :14:49.spoken to that there is a deep and sincere appetite to avoid getting
:14:49. > :14:49.
:14:49. > :14:52.ourselves into revenge and reprisals. I am not only keen to
:14:52. > :15:00.avoid that because it is destructive, but also from a very
:15:00. > :15:04.deep place I believe it is inappropriate. It is inappropriate
:15:04. > :15:14.to the memory of the people killed and tortured and inappropriate to
:15:14. > :15:14.
:15:14. > :15:17.human nature. It would be arrogant and inaccurate for me to say to you
:15:17. > :15:20.that there is something intrinsic about my being which has made me
:15:20. > :15:30.who I am. And that therefore there is something intrinsic about
:15:30. > :15:33.torture which has made him who he is. The moment we exercise our
:15:33. > :15:41.humanity to the fullest is the moment where we are tempted to
:15:41. > :15:44.imagine what it would be like to be someone completely different to us.
:15:44. > :15:54.I understand what you are saying and your appeal to avoid vengeance,
:15:54. > :15:59.retribution. And yet there is a massive, deep desire in Libya for
:15:59. > :16:03.accountability and justice. And that is different of course, but
:16:03. > :16:06.then there is a question of how far you go to ensure that the people
:16:06. > :16:15.who were around Gaddafi, part of that system, no longer have the
:16:15. > :16:18.right to positions of power or influence in the country. The
:16:18. > :16:28.Justice Minister who served Gaddafi for four years in the recent past
:16:28. > :16:36.is now the putative leader of a free Libya. I just wonder how you
:16:36. > :16:40.feel about that. I think there is a big difference between saying that
:16:40. > :16:44.we want to find a way to allow people who have gone so far in
:16:44. > :16:54.violence and crime a way that somehow, a way where they are
:16:54. > :17:00.
:17:00. > :17:10.treated humanely and justly. There is a difference between that and
:17:10. > :17:13.
:17:13. > :17:23.allowing them to go scot-free. Abdul Jalil is now the figurehead
:17:23. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:28.leader of the rebels. Should there be trials? In Iraq there was a
:17:28. > :17:33.process of deratification which took away systems and structures
:17:33. > :17:43.which allowed the country to function. Should there be something
:17:43. > :17:54.
:17:54. > :18:01.similar? I do not want to speak off the cuff. These are very important
:18:01. > :18:05.questions that need to be considered. The need to address
:18:05. > :18:08.past crimes and atrocities needs to be far more severe than make up
:18:08. > :18:15.issues such as you mentioned. In needs to be a national conversation
:18:15. > :18:25.that is sincere and authentic. It needs to be driven by the people to
:18:25. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:38.make sure these atrocities do not occur again. To allow us to produce
:18:38. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:44.results which are far more lasting. Suppose somebody was a torturer
:18:44. > :18:50.under Gaddafi's regime. He was not doing anything against the law.
:18:50. > :18:57.This was lawful at the time. How are you going to address that in a
:18:57. > :19:07.court of law? This presents challenges to the soul and the
:19:07. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:17.human heart that are very profound. We need to be creative. Not just to
:19:17. > :19:21.the mind and the court system. have spoken optimistically about
:19:21. > :19:24.Libya's future but I want to run through two issues which may be a
:19:24. > :19:27.challenge. This was not an entirely self propelled revolution. Had it
:19:27. > :19:37.not been for NATO's intervention the rebel forces would not have
:19:37. > :19:41.
:19:41. > :19:46.toppled the regime. That is not to say it is not self-propelled. It
:19:46. > :19:56.did have support but it is home- grown. This is what one respected
:19:56. > :19:57.
:19:57. > :20:00.Arab writer and thinker said. The danger is that Libya will end up
:20:00. > :20:03.with a weak, undemocratic, NATO- backed government which will be
:20:03. > :20:07.besieged by militants who are fundamentally anti-Western. There
:20:07. > :20:17.are so many dangers but I also see so many possibilities. I do not
:20:17. > :20:27.
:20:27. > :20:30.think it is a dark time at the moment. Anyone looking at what has
:20:30. > :20:34.happened in Libya, a nation that faced indecent violence, violence
:20:34. > :20:44.that was cunning and had no limits, is almost a spiritual event. It is
:20:44. > :20:53.
:20:53. > :20:56.awe-inspiring. It does represent severe challenges to Libya - not
:20:56. > :20:59.only those mentioned of Libyans needing foreign help for their
:20:59. > :21:02.revolution and what that would mean in the future, but also because
:21:02. > :21:09.civil society in Libya is so rudimentary. Our institutions are
:21:09. > :21:19.so weak because of Gaddafi's actions. Then there will be
:21:19. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:35.setbacks and disappointments but how else are we supposed to learn?
:21:35. > :21:39.If we are always either under the control of a dictator with a
:21:39. > :21:43.bizarre relationship with the world, the world has, um... I forgot the
:21:43. > :21:50.word. I am hearing your words about inspiration and your belief in what
:21:50. > :21:59.can be positive about Libya's your own situation. Your two novels
:21:59. > :22:02.are about loss. Loss of a father, loss of a country. Exile. Are you
:22:02. > :22:12.ready to go back and will this be a watershed moment for you
:22:12. > :22:15.
:22:15. > :22:25.personally? I do not know. I will personally? I do not know. I will
:22:25. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:30.In a way I am surpised you don't know. You have been thinking of
:22:30. > :22:34.your country almost every day of your life in exile and now there is
:22:34. > :22:38.the real possibility of going home and being part of the building
:22:38. > :22:42.process. My thoughts are less to do with that and more to do with how I
:22:42. > :22:45.feel as a writer and my concern with how moments like these in
:22:45. > :22:54.history can obliterate the writer. By nature we are outsiders, even in
:22:54. > :23:02.countries which are settled. Our work relies on that. We watch and
:23:02. > :23:10.we comment. We do not feel obliged to do anything except to be loyal
:23:10. > :23:13.to our work. Therefore moments like these - and I have been speaking to
:23:14. > :23:21.friends, artists from Egypt and Tunisia about this - that we feel
:23:21. > :23:31.so swept away about this. We are so excited and grateful to be alive,
:23:31. > :23:35.
:23:35. > :23:42.but also we are very nervous. Axious about our existential
:23:42. > :23:46.existence. It sounds almost selfish, and that is a pejorative word, but
:23:46. > :23:52.I wonder if you are saying you're not sure you feel entirely Libyan
:23:52. > :23:56.any more. No. That is not what I am saying. When somebody suggests I go
:23:56. > :24:01.back to Libya and play a role in politics, when I say no to that, to
:24:01. > :24:04.me it is out of loyalty to my work. If that is selfish, then I am
:24:04. > :24:06.selfish. I will always be exercising my right as a citizen
:24:06. > :24:16.writing journalism, doing interviews, saying what I think
:24:16. > :24:20.about what is happening. And I want to guard my independence. But I
:24:20. > :24:25.will also always be an artist, I hope. There are many examples in
:24:26. > :24:29.history of artists being completely destroyed by political life.
:24:29. > :24:39.want you back as an artist and a commentator on Libya. But now we
:24:39. > :24:52.
:24:52. > :24:57.are out of time. Thank you for There will be a few showers around
:24:57. > :25:06.over the next few days and that includes the weekend as well. There
:25:06. > :25:09.will be some sunshine as well. That's the story for today. Showers
:25:09. > :25:12.will be quite heavy and possibly thundery so quite a mixture. Wet
:25:12. > :25:20.weather moving through the spine of England. Heavy and thundery
:25:20. > :25:24.downpours as we start the day. On either side, dry. Some sunshine.
:25:24. > :25:29.Across Wales, showers developing on the west coast. For the rush-hour
:25:29. > :25:34.in Northern Ireland, showers developing. Slow moving affairs. If
:25:34. > :25:44.you get lucky you will stay dry. It should be a reasonable start to the
:25:44. > :25:44.
:25:44. > :25:54.day with some sunshine in Scotland. This is the area of wet weather in
:25:54. > :25:56.
:25:56. > :26:03.north-east England, the Midlands. Heavy rain. It will sweep through
:26:03. > :26:12.the London area but will not last all day. Behind that, things will
:26:12. > :26:21.brighten up. Showers across Devon, Cornwall. They will become more
:26:21. > :26:25.widespread through the day. Rain in the east. Showers in the west. The
:26:25. > :26:30.best of the sunshine in central Scotland to the spine of England.
:26:30. > :26:37.Nobody is immune from a shower through the day. It will be coolish.
:26:37. > :26:40.Into the evening, wet weather developing over France. That will
:26:40. > :26:50.head north overnight, threatening parts of England and East Anglia by
:26:50. > :26:51.
:26:51. > :27:01.the end of the night. Further west, dry. Another cool start to the day.
:27:01. > :27:01.
:27:01. > :27:05.The wet weather across the east will move to inland regions.
:27:05. > :27:14.Further west, a chance of sunshine but also showers and cool into the