:00:05. > :00:09.HARDtalk. -- now it is time. Sir David Hare has spent his life
:00:09. > :00:12.making things up in search of the truth. With his prolific output of
:00:12. > :00:15.plays and screenplays, he has become one of the most influential
:00:15. > :00:17.chroniclers of modern Britain, a left-leaning playwright whose anger
:00:17. > :00:27.has been variously directed at deceitful politicians, cynical
:00:27. > :00:31.media barons and grasping bankers. He accepted a knighthood from Tony
:00:31. > :00:38.Blair, then excoriated him for his role in the Iraq war. Britain is
:00:38. > :00:48.now back in conservative hands. Does Sir David Hare still have fire
:00:48. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:18.Will come to HARDtalk. Thank you. want to take you back to your early
:01:18. > :01:25.days in the theatre. At that time, you said you raged for change
:01:25. > :01:30.against the pretext of ridiculous institutions. Are you still raging?
:01:30. > :01:35.I was brought up at the end of the empire. Everybody was still
:01:35. > :01:38.behaving like we were an incredibly important country. Institutions had
:01:39. > :01:42.a grandiosity that seemed ridiculous. What I would be a
:01:43. > :01:46.raging against now would be completely different things, most
:01:46. > :01:52.of the fact that the country is completely at the mercy of the
:01:52. > :02:00.economics of foreign powers. Justice point about anger, do you
:02:01. > :02:05.still write fuelled by anger? -- just this point. I am not fuelled
:02:05. > :02:11.by anger. I am not an angry brighter. What I want to do is
:02:11. > :02:17.exactly what people write about more private subjects do. Art is my
:02:17. > :02:22.primary interest. I happen to use the materials as my Materials,
:02:22. > :02:27.things from contemporary society and that is unusual. You used
:02:27. > :02:30.deeply political material so, therefore, people look at political
:02:30. > :02:34.messages and wondered whether you believe that you can in some ways
:02:34. > :02:40.change people's mines or affect political change through what you
:02:40. > :02:45.do. I don't think that I wanted to affect political changes that I
:02:45. > :02:51.would choose the theatre. It is not the most efficient way of doing it.
:02:51. > :02:55.Perhaps you were more naive. I am not saying it is not important. If
:02:55. > :03:02.my interests were purely political and all the political then plainly
:03:02. > :03:11.I would not be working in an art form. An art form imposes certain
:03:11. > :03:18.difficulties on you that can affect you. Does it mean it was easier in
:03:18. > :03:23.some ways to take current events and make art from them during the
:03:23. > :03:29.Thatcher years? During the years when Britain was run by Tories?
:03:29. > :03:39.feel the opposite. I found myself doing more quality documentary work,
:03:39. > :03:40.
:03:40. > :03:45.journalistic work, when there was a diplomatic process leading up to
:03:45. > :03:50.the beginning of Iraq. We talk about what happened, beginning with
:03:50. > :03:54.the invasion. That was a play called Moody. I also wrote a play
:03:54. > :03:59.about the financial crisis. I feel that things are happening so fast
:03:59. > :04:02.and the world is changing so quickly that I am almost having to
:04:02. > :04:12.resort to documentary because I have no time to do some of the
:04:12. > :04:17.
:04:17. > :04:21.deeper processes Zawiya ting exactly as Balzac wanted to act, as
:04:21. > :04:25.society's secretary. You asked me when I felt more compelled to write
:04:25. > :04:30.about contemporary events. The answer does, I have never as much
:04:30. > :04:33.as I haven't the past 10 years. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you
:04:33. > :04:38.were so compelled to write about the events of the Blair years,
:04:39. > :04:42.partly because you felt a sense of betrayal. Tony Blair was the one
:04:42. > :04:47.politician do you had personally gone out on a limb for unsupported.
:04:47. > :04:54.I don't think I did. Where do you think I went out and supported Tony
:04:54. > :04:59.Blair? You suggested in the 90s that Tony Blair saying that a
:04:59. > :05:04.politician with real hope -- to offer real hope for Britain. He did.
:05:04. > :05:08.Historically, he offered hope. It is obviously clear that Barack
:05:08. > :05:12.Obama is another example that politicians to offer hope are
:05:12. > :05:15.always the politicians who are doomed to offer a disappointment.
:05:15. > :05:20.Nobody will be disappointed by David Cameron because nobody has
:05:20. > :05:25.any hope for him. Was there something of a sense of betrayal
:05:26. > :05:31.enjoy reading of Tony Blair, you believe he could be a great Prime
:05:31. > :05:37.Minister... I never said anything like that. I was never an open and
:05:37. > :05:42.public supporter of Tony Blair. it a mistake to take a knighthood
:05:42. > :05:48.from him? In 1990 you did. For some people, that sealed the idea that
:05:48. > :05:52.Sir David Hare was close to New Labour. I think it would have been
:05:53. > :05:58.a mistake to take a night to do if my work could become less good or
:05:59. > :06:03.less radical. -- To Go knighted. Since then, I have been writing not
:06:03. > :06:10.just as well as I have ever ridden but is radically as I have ever
:06:10. > :06:14.ridden. I don't think the night to stop me in my tracks. -- written.
:06:14. > :06:20.Let's talk about Page Eight. You talk about the work you did in the
:06:20. > :06:26.run-up to the Iraq War. This is more about de so-called war on
:06:26. > :06:30.terror. In essence, it is a fictional account of what happened
:06:30. > :06:33.when they were working alongside the Americans on the war on terror.
:06:33. > :06:40.-- the British intelligence services when they were working.
:06:40. > :06:48.Let's take a look. I have called the two of you together. By want to
:06:48. > :06:54.share a source. Before we go any further, you're very excited.
:06:54. > :06:59.cannot resist a file called Top Secret. You are going to think,
:06:59. > :07:04."will hold on, the Americans are supposed to be our allies." they
:07:05. > :07:09.are not what you call sheering borders.
:07:09. > :07:16.He even you can have read that already. I have seen certain words.
:07:16. > :07:21.I gather we are back in the Middle East. It is 2011, some time since
:07:21. > :07:26.the invasion of Iraq and some time since the war on terror. Do you
:07:26. > :07:32.think the world wants another exploration of this? This is
:07:32. > :07:36.actually about MI5. There hasn't been a single work so far about
:07:36. > :07:40.what has happened to MI5 in the first 10 years of the century. What
:07:40. > :07:44.happened is, partly because it refused to offer Tony Blair the
:07:44. > :07:49.information he wanted but he was putting together a case for the
:07:49. > :07:55.invasion of Iraq and partly because of 7/7, it has been a rough few
:07:55. > :07:59.years for MI5. John le Carre was writing about the Cold War, he is
:08:00. > :08:06.the greatest writer on the subject. There is nothing contemporary. It
:08:06. > :08:12.is a completely new field. I am intrigued by the way that if you're
:08:12. > :08:18.writing, they do a lot of research. You mention journalism. I am just
:08:18. > :08:23.wondering whether it is difficult to find a way of using research,
:08:23. > :08:29.genuine factual research, and you're imagination in fiction and
:08:29. > :08:33.are there dangers there? I don't think so. If you take the template
:08:33. > :08:38.of the way I write, the interesting thing is that two-thirds of what
:08:38. > :08:42.happens in the diplomatic process leading up to the invasion of Iraq
:08:42. > :08:46.happened but find cold -- happened behind closed doors. When Tony
:08:46. > :08:51.Blair and George Bush went for a walk in coffered, Texas, they did
:08:51. > :08:55.not even take their assistance with them, which made their assistance
:08:55. > :08:59.extremely nervous. Nobody knows what they said. I wrote that seen
:08:59. > :09:04.as a fictional encounter. I invented that scene. People will
:09:04. > :09:11.never know whether it was true or not. That is what Shakespeare did.
:09:11. > :09:18.Mary Queen of Scots never met Elizabeth the first. That was
:09:19. > :09:22.invented by Schiller. You create these fictional accounts of things
:09:22. > :09:28.nobody knows about and then you add in a factual element and the
:09:28. > :09:33.audience does not know which is which. It is perfectly clear.
:09:33. > :09:37.Anything that is direct address to the audience is quotation and
:09:37. > :09:42.anything that is the scene is invented from my imagination. The
:09:42. > :09:47.interesting thing is, a lot of the people who are -- were party to
:09:47. > :09:52.those events, they have confirmed the accuracy. I began by suggesting
:09:52. > :09:57.that you have used fiction, you would call it lying, to tell a
:09:57. > :10:01.bigger truth. I just wonder whether you have actually come to the
:10:01. > :10:05.conclusion that sometimes the facts speak for themselves and don't need
:10:05. > :10:13.the imagination of others. I have been involved and what is called
:10:13. > :10:23.for Beighton theatre. When it came to the train crashes, I bought a
:10:23. > :10:27.play called the permanent way. I let people speak. I arrange it as a
:10:27. > :10:33.composer but arranged music. I said it the way I wanted it said. It was
:10:33. > :10:38.entirely, word for word, of what they wanted to save. Your style is
:10:38. > :10:42.becoming more journalistic. Would you agree with that? I don't at all.
:10:42. > :10:48.I don't think it is a tall journalistic because there is
:10:48. > :10:52.always an element of metaphor. My aims are always the same as for any
:10:52. > :11:01.work abroad. In other words, I want things to suggest other things.
:11:01. > :11:06.When I did Stuff Happens, it was compared to a Shakespearean play.
:11:06. > :11:10.It was said it describe diplomatic processes and certain classic
:11:10. > :11:15.situations in which intelligence meets Power and Power wins. It is
:11:15. > :11:21.meant to be about all type of situations. It is not just a
:11:21. > :11:26.documentary. Recently you said "there is so much to write about in
:11:26. > :11:31.this century that I can get it down fast enough." I do feel that. Have
:11:31. > :11:35.you thought about something that has preoccupied the minds of many
:11:35. > :11:40.people in the last few weeks, the extraordinary St Bride's, rioting,
:11:40. > :11:46.looting, I just wonder whether you have looked at what has happened in
:11:46. > :11:49.this country and all talk about it being part of a cultural malaise, a
:11:49. > :11:52.crisis of Mahler -- morality and brother you thought there was
:11:53. > :11:59.something happening in this country that you would have to address in
:11:59. > :12:03.your Orde. It does not work like that. I wish it did. I wish that
:12:03. > :12:07.the subjects that you chose were for purely political reasons. After
:12:07. > :12:12.I wrote a play about the Chinese revolution, people immediately
:12:12. > :12:16.asked me why it did not write about the Russian Revolution. I cannot
:12:16. > :12:26.explain why as a Russian I was drawn to writing about the Chinese
:12:26. > :12:30.resolution just as Bacon could not tell you why he drew a Popes. When
:12:30. > :12:35.I drew a monologue about my experience of Palestine, I got a
:12:35. > :12:40.call asking me to come to Northern Ireland. I had to say that that is
:12:40. > :12:44.not true artist's work. They do not choose their subject matter, their
:12:44. > :12:51.subject-matter chooses them. -- that is not how artists' work.
:12:51. > :12:56.London has been burning in the past few weeks. We have a Prime Minister,
:12:56. > :13:00.David Cameron, prove his couch this in a moral way. We are talking
:13:00. > :13:04.about society having elements in it that are sick. Because you have
:13:05. > :13:10.clearly got strong views on Britain and its culture, I wondered what
:13:10. > :13:13.the response to that is. I will respond but that the first say that
:13:13. > :13:18.my opinions have nothing to do with my art. My opinions are as
:13:18. > :13:22.interesting or as on interesting as any other citizen. My opinions are
:13:22. > :13:26.saloon-bar opinions, but I happen to think. The only interesting
:13:26. > :13:35.thing about my opinions is the degree to which they are
:13:35. > :13:39.transmitted. My opinion is deeply shaped by the fact that at the end
:13:39. > :13:43.of the 1980s and the beginning of the 1990s, insider political
:13:43. > :13:49.theorising, I went over to writing about those people queued for on
:13:50. > :13:54.the front line, the clergy, the police, teachers. More and more, I
:13:54. > :13:59.wanted to deal with those people who felt that Thatcherism had
:13:59. > :14:04.created divides in society which it was their job to bandage the wins.
:14:04. > :14:08.I was very surprised to find a politicised police force as early
:14:08. > :14:11.as the 1980s. The police were saying the social problems have
:14:11. > :14:14.been created by a bunch of intellectuals in Downing Street
:14:14. > :14:18.could have all sorts of fancy theories about welfare dependency
:14:19. > :14:23.but be other people on the front line who have to deal with the
:14:23. > :14:27.consequences of these intellectual theories. So, I must admit, in the
:14:27. > :14:37.events of two weeks ago, my sympathies were and parley with the
:14:37. > :14:39.
:14:39. > :14:46.I am interested in your thoughts on what Cameron has identified as a
:14:46. > :14:50.moral sickness. A I accept that there is a moral malaise in the
:14:50. > :14:56.country at large but it extends as much to David Cameron, who would
:14:56. > :15:04.employ somebody like Michael Gove he had to pay back �7,000 of
:15:04. > :15:09.expenses -- he was appointed as an indication secretary and he had to
:15:09. > :15:17.return all that money to consume! The point is that he gave it back
:15:17. > :15:20.and apologised. Yes, he was allowed to give it back and apologise!
:15:20. > :15:25.British public seems to think that there is something profoundly wrong
:15:25. > :15:29.with the sort of people who went out and looted and behaved in a
:15:29. > :15:34.criminal fashion in the last two weeks and feet to draw a direct
:15:34. > :15:40.parallel with politicians... think it would be unacceptable but
:15:40. > :15:44.it is plainly a fact. Look at bankers behaviour in the last few
:15:44. > :15:52.years. Is that morally acceptable? Why is that not condemned by
:15:52. > :15:56.Downing Street in the same fashion as the violence. My sympathies are
:15:56. > :16:01.with the victims of the violence and the police but once you start
:16:01. > :16:11.using the language of moral sickness, you must start saying:
:16:11. > :16:17.
:16:17. > :16:21.Who is morally stickier? -- sick here? Do you think Theatre and the
:16:21. > :16:26.world you live in has anything to say to the sort of young people who
:16:26. > :16:33.won the St? Do you believe that your art form can reach up? We know
:16:33. > :16:37.perfectly well it can. We have the most wonderful young writers scheme
:16:37. > :16:42.to which people from all sorts of backgrounds are invited to become
:16:42. > :16:52.writers, take part in workshops... Defeat is one of the way that they
:16:52. > :16:56.
:16:56. > :17:05.can contribute. -- v theatre is one of the ways they can contribute. --
:17:05. > :17:15.The theatre. Do you accept that there is a cultural or artistic
:17:15. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:24.apartheid out there? The people to become interested in the arts have
:17:24. > :17:30.changed. The paperback and the television have become more and
:17:30. > :17:37.more available to more people. theatre in London costs up to �50
:17:37. > :17:41.in London. People like me who go to them do not walk around and see the
:17:41. > :17:51.sorts of faces that frankly leave in the poorer parts of London and
:17:51. > :17:57.
:17:57. > :18:02.the inner city. -- live. When the theatre was opened for a �5 ticket
:18:02. > :18:06.in the balcony, I saw the faces and it was extremely mixed. The theatre
:18:07. > :18:12.needs to get more people in. It is wonderful throwing out these all
:18:12. > :18:19.charges, but they are old. Themes are being dealt with by people at
:18:19. > :18:26.the National Theatre. They have worried about how to draw in more
:18:26. > :18:34.people. Don't you think that everybody is working at it? Led us
:18:34. > :18:42.talk about the state of Britain as you see it. I know you are working
:18:42. > :18:46.on a new play which I think is about your own experiences at a
:18:46. > :18:51.private school. I think you did not feel entirely comfortable there. Is
:18:51. > :18:55.the fact that you have again reflected on it, is that a signal
:18:55. > :19:00.that you believe there is something profoundly problematic about the
:19:00. > :19:04.education system, the two-tier system? Know. I may believe that
:19:04. > :19:10.but it has nothing to do with my opinion. It is an artistic venture
:19:10. > :19:14.and it is about the moment at which a boy of 13 or 14 begins to realise
:19:14. > :19:19.who he is. There is a terrible moment in your life when you
:19:19. > :19:23.realise, as one of the characters says, you are compelled to leave
:19:23. > :19:33.your whole life in the cupboard you have somebody you may not like very
:19:33. > :19:33.
:19:33. > :19:38.much, namely, yourself. -- in the company of somebody. Your father
:19:38. > :19:43.was absent a lot. Are there things about your upbringing and a feeling
:19:43. > :19:48.of this connectedness from your father and scoring that encouraged
:19:48. > :19:58.you to turn with Fien and rides? really do not know the answer to
:19:58. > :20:01.
:20:01. > :20:06.that. -- to turn within and write. There is no doubt that everybody
:20:06. > :20:14.else around me understood the rules. I tried to understand them and I
:20:14. > :20:18.genuinely did not. I do not understand them today. You said
:20:18. > :20:24.before the programme that people do not like coming on it because it is
:20:24. > :20:30.too aggressive. And I immediately think, why has it never occurred to
:20:30. > :20:36.me? I have never seen it but you represented it to me as the common
:20:36. > :20:41.wisdom. I have the problem that I do not altogether understand. There
:20:41. > :20:45.has been both an advantage and a disadvantage. You talk frankly
:20:45. > :20:51.about yourself and your feelings and you have gone into a world
:20:51. > :20:55.where you are constantly exposed. You say it is the same for actors.
:20:56. > :21:00.You are putting yourself on the parapet and inviting people to
:21:00. > :21:10.judge you night after night. You have done that for a long time. Has
:21:10. > :21:15.
:21:15. > :21:21.it begun to weigh you down? -- wear? I am thinking about the
:21:21. > :21:31.insecurity and worry. That is the very thing that also makes me a
:21:31. > :21:31.
:21:31. > :21:40.writer. My wife says that I always seem to work -- seed out the most
:21:40. > :21:44.unhappy person in a room. It is as if I am drawn by some of radar. --
:21:44. > :21:54.seek out. I perhaps heaven over sensitivity to people's unhappiness
:21:54. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:02.but that also makes me a writer. You give an impression of total
:22:02. > :22:08.assurance. -- some people give an impression of total assurance but
:22:08. > :22:14.it is a mask over insecurity. course. You said you are making
:22:15. > :22:18.movies in America but not many people would watch. With all of the
:22:18. > :22:23.anxiety in the profession, would you be better off doing something
:22:23. > :22:30.else? No. Because I have to rise and it has become my life. It has
:22:30. > :22:36.completely taken... One day I might make a really good play or film is,
:22:36. > :22:40.I am afraid, one of the most important things in my life. It is
:22:40. > :22:50.what I say to young people who want to go into this profession: You
:22:50. > :22:51.
:22:51. > :22:54.think it will be to do with self expression but at first you will be
:22:55. > :22:58.at the mercy of your gift and fining the limits of your gift
:22:58. > :23:02.under imagination and it will be extremely painful when you discover
:23:02. > :23:08.you cannot write the way you want to write. But the larger part of
:23:08. > :23:18.the profession will involve being judged. If you do not like being
:23:18. > :23:18.
:23:18. > :23:23.judged, it is a difficult job. you talk of what keeps you going,
:23:23. > :23:32.other writers have said that if they are almost we write a work
:23:32. > :23:38.when we are quite young and then we struggle. Do you feel that? No, it
:23:38. > :23:44.goes in waves. There are periods where you feel on top of things. By
:23:44. > :23:49.have been around a few times but I think the players I have ridden in
:23:49. > :23:53.the last decade are as good as any I have written. Because this is a
:23:54. > :23:59.new sense of curiosity or passion? I do not know. I have been
:23:59. > :24:08.fortunate in that I can regenerate myself. There was a crucial moment
:24:08. > :24:14.of the end of the 1970s after having been an apocalyptic leftist
:24:14. > :24:18.I thought of the decade was going to end badly. I thought everyone
:24:18. > :24:24.would go left but everyone move to the right. Nobody had seen that
:24:24. > :24:34.coming. I could not really wide for four years because I was so
:24:34. > :24:35.
:24:35. > :24:44.completely confused with what was going on. -- write. I wish we did
:24:44. > :24:54.not have to, but we must indeed there. Thank you for joining me.
:24:54. > :25:06.
:25:06. > :25:10.A dull start to the week across many parts of the British Isles. A
:25:10. > :25:20.little bit of sunshine around if you are lucky at the start of the
:25:20. > :25:23.
:25:23. > :25:27.day. There is a weather front close by the north of Scotland. To the
:25:27. > :25:34.eastern side of the Pennines, there will be some sunshine to start the
:25:34. > :25:38.day. There will be one or two showers right from the start
:25:38. > :25:41.towards the western side of Wales, perhaps in the far north as well.
:25:41. > :25:51.Showers on the northern coast of Northern Ireland. They will move
:25:51. > :25:54.
:25:54. > :25:58.towards Scotland. Some cloud and a little rain in Edinburgh and the
:25:58. > :26:01.Lothians area, and perhaps in the far north of England too. A dry
:26:01. > :26:07.start to the day and there will be some sunshine. Temperatures went
:26:07. > :26:13.into single figures overnight. There may be more cloud around than
:26:13. > :26:17.there was at the finish of Monday. Cloud will become more extensive,
:26:17. > :26:27.so make the most of the sun if you can. The temperatures are about 15
:26:27. > :26:38.
:26:38. > :26:44.through the heart of Scotland. Not much better than 18 or 19 further
:26:44. > :26:53.south. Some of the cloud will begin to dissipate in the course of the
:26:53. > :26:56.evening. We may see temperatures fall back into single figures. That
:26:57. > :27:06.is not that unusual for this time of year. There is a distinct chill,
:27:07. > :27:07.
:27:07. > :27:10.however. The weather is fairly settled
:27:10. > :27:20.because of this large area of high pressure. It will keep things fine
:27:20. > :27:21.