0:01:07 > 0:01:14HARDtalk. It looks as though Yemen is the Arab Revolution in which
0:01:14 > 0:01:19went off the rails. Do you agree? Well, I don't know - it is rather
0:01:19 > 0:01:25unfortunate. The revolution in Yemen is not linked only to the
0:01:25 > 0:01:30Arab Spring. The events in Yemen have unfolded over the past years
0:01:30 > 0:01:35since the last civil war in 1994. Especially where I come from in the
0:01:35 > 0:01:42south you could say that the events of the revolution started at least
0:01:42 > 0:01:46from 2007 when the southern movement started its uprising
0:01:46 > 0:01:50against the regime. No doubt we ha hastability in Yemen over
0:01:50 > 0:01:54many years. We have seen political violence. What we saw at the
0:01:55 > 0:02:00beginning of this year, may be sparked by what was happening in
0:02:00 > 0:02:07Tunisia, were mass protests. We saw young people in particular on the
0:02:07 > 0:02:11streets of Sanaa. We saw days of rage. Then we saw a great deal of
0:02:11 > 0:02:16violence in April and in May. That seemed to subvert the ideals of
0:02:16 > 0:02:19this protest movement. I could say that the revolution and
0:02:19 > 0:02:24revolutionaries have been on the streets as protesters and
0:02:24 > 0:02:30demonstrators. They have always claimed to follow a peaceful line
0:02:30 > 0:02:35of demonstration. It was the ruling clique that actually used force, if
0:02:35 > 0:02:41you go back to the events... If you could say that the revolt started
0:02:41 > 0:02:45in early February until 18th March when we had the bloody Friday where
0:02:45 > 0:02:50about some 60 people were killed. Security forces killed their guns
0:02:50 > 0:02:54on protesters and we saw dozens of people killed. It was unfortunate.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57The people had been trained by our friends in the West to counter-
0:02:57 > 0:03:02terrorism but it was used to pick the people who were protesting
0:03:02 > 0:03:05peacefully. But you yourself chose to resign from your official
0:03:05 > 0:03:09position - you had a position in the ruling party - you were an
0:03:09 > 0:03:12adviser from the Prime Minister. You walk away from that. In the
0:03:12 > 0:03:17weeks and months that have followed the opposition movement, of which
0:03:17 > 0:03:21you are now part, has been taken over by tribal interests, by a
0:03:21 > 0:03:28renegade general who, frankly, has no cleaner hands than those who are
0:03:28 > 0:03:32still in the official army - people who, clearly, are not Democrats.
0:03:32 > 0:03:41Yes, I think I have left my official position but I left the
0:03:41 > 0:03:45party one year earlier than that.... We had a different stance starting
0:03:45 > 0:03:49from at least 2003 if not 1997 when we saw that the democratisation
0:03:49 > 0:03:54protest in Yemen was being derailed by the President and his men
0:03:54 > 0:03:59because they were looking for, at one time, for what they called the
0:03:59 > 0:04:05comfortable majority in the parliament. In 2003 they went for a
0:04:05 > 0:04:08very wide majority which took over 85% of the seats. I don't want to
0:04:08 > 0:04:12spend too much time on your personal career because I think
0:04:12 > 0:04:16there are different issues. I think that is rewriting history. You're a
0:04:16 > 0:04:21loyal servant of the Prime Minister until the beginning of this year.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23You were on the American public radio at the end of last year
0:04:23 > 0:04:28telling the world that the government needed more military
0:04:28 > 0:04:34supplies - more military training to come from the West. Well, at one
0:04:34 > 0:04:39time we needed the aid to help us confront the situation then. At one
0:04:39 > 0:04:42time - this is the end of last year when you told me in this interview
0:04:42 > 0:04:46that Mr Saleh was no longer acceptable as a leader in your
0:04:46 > 0:04:49country. You were still defending their government. I was not
0:04:50 > 0:04:56defending the government. Why are you telling the West to give more
0:04:56 > 0:05:00military training and supplies? we didn't say that - we needed more
0:05:00 > 0:05:03help in Yemen and we still need help now. On the same position - we
0:05:03 > 0:05:13need more help to confront all the issues we are facing in Yemen,
0:05:13 > 0:05:16
0:05:16 > 0:05:21starting from terrorism to poverty and... Arm... Democratisation. Here
0:05:21 > 0:05:25in London last year you interviewed the Foreign Minister - at that time,
0:05:25 > 0:05:32our friends in the West were siding with us. They said they wanted to
0:05:32 > 0:05:36help Yemen - prevent it from sliding towards a failed state.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41yes, but you're talking about Yemen and actually what you mean now is
0:05:41 > 0:05:44that you are part of an opposition movement. My point to ute is -
0:05:44 > 0:05:49having jumped ship from the government AU loyally served for so
0:05:49 > 0:05:59many years, you are part of an incoherent banned of different
0:05:59 > 0:06:05opposition factions. -- incoherent band of different opposing factions.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08There are the secular southern Socialists, there are tribal
0:06:08 > 0:06:12lists... There is nothing that glues these people together in
0:06:12 > 0:06:15terms of ideology. The thing that glues them together, Stephen, is
0:06:15 > 0:06:20they're looking for a government that would be a civilian government
0:06:20 > 0:06:24that would head towards true democratisation, federalism,
0:06:24 > 0:06:29regionalisation, they are the same things which I have been actually
0:06:29 > 0:06:35calling for for the past 13-14 years. It is just the President has
0:06:35 > 0:06:39been, at one time, promising people he will go forward with that even...
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Last March the President said he was with regionalism and federalism
0:06:43 > 0:06:46- he is going to move towards a parliamentary system, a democracy
0:06:46 > 0:06:50system - things we have been asking for the President has been paying
0:06:51 > 0:06:56lip-service to it but nothing has materialised. So you're just
0:06:57 > 0:07:06sticking with this idea about who is the opposition right now. -- so,
0:07:07 > 0:07:08
0:07:08 > 0:07:18just sticking with this idea. You include the reformed Islamist party.
0:07:18 > 0:07:25The United States their -- regard their leader as a terrorist. He is
0:07:25 > 0:07:29not the real leader of that party. Well, he was the founder of... He
0:07:29 > 0:07:35has a track record which shows he is a very important player within
0:07:35 > 0:07:39the Yemeni branch of the Brotherhood. The situation is not
0:07:39 > 0:07:43only going to be decided by what is going on in Sanaa. It will be
0:07:43 > 0:07:52decided what is going on in different places across the country.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56Different cities - everywhere. What is happening in Sanaa is only part
0:07:56 > 0:08:00of the picture. There is a wide sort of collision working together
0:08:00 > 0:08:08- they have agreed they are working towards a parliamentary federal
0:08:08 > 0:08:12Yemen. And the a renegade commander of the First Division - he has his
0:08:12 > 0:08:15own allegations of human rights abuses, terrible malpractice - you
0:08:15 > 0:08:25are happy to see him as one of the key figures in your opposition
0:08:25 > 0:08:25
0:08:25 > 0:08:29movement? No - the man... This is the man who commands one of the
0:08:29 > 0:08:35most fearsome military fighting forces in Yemen. Either you will
0:08:35 > 0:08:39walk away? No, we have got people on the ground - if they feel they
0:08:39 > 0:08:43have been somehow... That is precisely my point. That young
0:08:43 > 0:08:48people on the ground - particularly the students and unemployed young
0:08:48 > 0:08:52people who were demanding change and jobs and demanding a real say
0:08:52 > 0:08:55in the future of Yemen - they have no interest, frankly in lots of
0:08:55 > 0:09:00these Establishment figures like the general. There is a mismatch
0:09:00 > 0:09:09between the youth protest we saw and the interests who have now
0:09:09 > 0:09:14converged around this anti-Mr Saleh campaign.Drawing the last game -
0:09:15 > 0:09:19the last goal. There is going to be a movement shifting, slowly,
0:09:19 > 0:09:23towards achieving those aims. We can never achieve them in one go.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27For the past 30 years Yemen has been suffering a lot. People have
0:09:27 > 0:09:33endured a lot. You cannot change it in a few moments. Things have got
0:09:33 > 0:09:38to recover. I am happy if this general and the rest of them say -
0:09:38 > 0:09:42we are leading, we're going to be more save for the people - we are
0:09:42 > 0:09:44moving towards democratisation. The most important thing now is giving
0:09:44 > 0:09:52people the essay - shifting power from the centre towards the
0:09:52 > 0:09:56periphery. If we can do that... That is a long-term aspiration. In
0:09:56 > 0:10:00the short-term there a lot of things to decide. President Saleh -
0:10:00 > 0:10:0433 years in power. He does not want to be removed by a coup. He says he
0:10:04 > 0:10:09is prepared to transition power but he wants to. From within the
0:10:09 > 0:10:12country and he wants to do it by peaceful means. That is why he has
0:10:12 > 0:10:17refused to give up the presidency. He wants to come back from his
0:10:17 > 0:10:23convalescence in Saudi Arabia. Will you countenance that? That is a
0:10:23 > 0:10:29ploy - buying time. He has lost all credibility. The man has no
0:10:29 > 0:10:35credibility at all. We suffered from him for the past... In 1994 he
0:10:35 > 0:10:43signed an accord in Jordan and the next day he remained. Again, I was
0:10:43 > 0:10:47in London just eight, nine months ago and we had something written up
0:10:47 > 0:10:54by the President and his political adviser and three weeks later he
0:10:54 > 0:10:58just completely got rid of it. Dropped it. We have no confidence
0:10:58 > 0:11:04in dealing with this man. You could argue that is a difficult position
0:11:04 > 0:11:09for you to sustain, logically, if nothing else. He defended this man
0:11:09 > 0:11:13- going back to your support - you supported Mr Saleh and his regime
0:11:13 > 0:11:15for years when the United States state department and Human Rights
0:11:15 > 0:11:20Watch, Amnesty International - a whole heap of people were
0:11:20 > 0:11:26cataloguing systematic abuses of the Yemeni people by President
0:11:26 > 0:11:32Saleh's regime and you supported it. Non! No... At you were an
0:11:32 > 0:11:36ambassador. You had a picture of the present in your office. I was
0:11:36 > 0:11:41the number two, number three in the party. We were driven out - I was
0:11:41 > 0:11:45demoted as an ambassador. Not actually... It was a demotion
0:11:45 > 0:11:49because people like us - they didn't like people like us who
0:11:49 > 0:11:54spoke about democratisation, by shifting towards something that has
0:11:54 > 0:11:57been helped by people. Let's speak about our friends in the West. They
0:11:57 > 0:12:01have been siding with the man knacker we have been against him
0:12:01 > 0:12:04for a while. They were telling us - stop for a while, let's see if he
0:12:04 > 0:12:08can achieve. We have proven to them he was only paying lip service to
0:12:08 > 0:12:13what he has been saying about democracy about pluralistic regimes
0:12:13 > 0:12:17and so on. All right, so you won't countenance him coming back. It is
0:12:17 > 0:12:20unclear whether the Saudi Arabians, blocking a team, won him to come
0:12:20 > 0:12:26back. Even if he doesn't come back - the fact is that his son is a key
0:12:26 > 0:12:29player in the military. His nephews are acutely involved in the
0:12:29 > 0:12:37security and intelligence apparatus. The circle around him is still
0:12:37 > 0:12:43there in Sanaa. But they have to be removed? If the present means what
0:12:43 > 0:12:48he says and said what he means he has advised his party to sign for
0:12:48 > 0:12:52what the initiative. The initiative that all these people have to move
0:12:52 > 0:12:57and that power should be shifted to the vice-president who will be an
0:12:57 > 0:13:01interim president and we will have a national unity government and
0:13:01 > 0:13:06then we will have an inclusive dialogue, a national dialogue which
0:13:07 > 0:13:09we have been asking for for the past ten years. A true dialogue
0:13:09 > 0:13:14between different political parties. And the question is whether that
0:13:14 > 0:13:18can be achieved by peaceful means. Somebody tried to kill President
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Saleh in June. He got terrible burns when his palace was attacked.
0:13:22 > 0:13:27Did you support that? I would not support violence at all. You would
0:13:27 > 0:13:30not support violence at all? the feel about the fact they is
0:13:30 > 0:13:36believed that the tribal leadership and perhaps the general were
0:13:36 > 0:13:45directly behind the attack? I don't think they were responsible. People
0:13:45 > 0:13:48in the opposition? No, people within the presidential structure.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52But we are still a question - the present was about to sign an
0:13:52 > 0:13:56initiative two days before he was attacked. People were interested to
0:13:56 > 0:14:00stop his initiative - and their other people who should be accused.
0:14:00 > 0:14:09We know that the Foreign Minister of Saudi Arabia was about to arrive
0:14:09 > 0:14:12in Sanaa... Just two days after... So somehow you think it was Mr
0:14:12 > 0:14:16Saleh's own people we decided to get rid of him? Well, nobody else
0:14:16 > 0:14:26believes that in Yemen, but let's leave that to one side and talk
0:14:26 > 0:14:27
0:14:27 > 0:14:34Do you believe that the Saudis have a policy that has been described as
0:14:34 > 0:14:38keeping Yemen? I hope they have realise their keeping Yemen week is
0:14:38 > 0:14:44against their... Do you believe that is what they are still dealing
0:14:44 > 0:14:48with regard to Yemen? Now we are through an interim period where
0:14:48 > 0:14:53people calling the shots have got different opinions. The Saudis have
0:14:53 > 0:14:58said they are committed towards a united Yemen and the stability in
0:14:58 > 0:15:08Yemen because that is their interest. It's Yemen mousse, moves
0:15:08 > 0:15:14
0:15:14 > 0:15:19towards an -- if Yemen does move towards an arty... And you believe
0:15:19 > 0:15:25other countries are not doing enough to deliver change, reform
0:15:25 > 0:15:30and democracy for your country, Yemen. That is why I am trying to
0:15:30 > 0:15:38get back to what we have been done, what has been done in London. The
0:15:38 > 0:15:42last interview was just before the formation of the grip of the
0:15:42 > 0:15:50friends of Yemen. We are now heading towards a hear man which
0:15:50 > 0:15:55might disintegrate. Is that in the interest of the West? The region?
0:15:55 > 0:16:00In a sense you have summed up your own problem - it is all about, as
0:16:00 > 0:16:07far as the Saudis and the United States are concerned, it is about
0:16:07 > 0:16:17stability and making sure that a lead is kept on terrorism -- and
0:16:17 > 0:16:18
0:16:18 > 0:16:28that a lead is kept on terrorism. - - a lid. If the Reform Party has
0:16:28 > 0:16:32
0:16:32 > 0:16:36links that appeared with to go to militant Jihad parties. No, part of
0:16:36 > 0:16:44the people are being trained and being kept under control by the
0:16:44 > 0:16:51President... Hang on, we will look in detail. We spoke earlier about
0:16:51 > 0:16:56the founder of the University, the founder of Islam. He was a teacher
0:16:56 > 0:17:05and an associate of one of the most wanted Al-Qaeda operatives in the
0:17:05 > 0:17:15world. I can mention many names who are within the President and he
0:17:15 > 0:17:19
0:17:19 > 0:17:23came out and said that the people close to the President, the man who
0:17:23 > 0:17:27was there said I was in the presidential palace just last week.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32The President has been playing with Al-Qaeda because they are the
0:17:32 > 0:17:36number one fundraiser for him. evidence suggests that you and the
0:17:36 > 0:17:43opposition are now using Al-Qaeda fighters as allies against the
0:17:43 > 0:17:48government. If we look at reports on fighting, forces are being
0:17:48 > 0:17:52counted by different Islamist militia. There seems to be evidence
0:17:52 > 0:18:02that a group affiliated with Al- Qaeda or is doing some of the
0:18:02 > 0:18:04
0:18:04 > 0:18:12fighting, fighting on your side. A reporter of the Guardian was
0:18:12 > 0:18:22there and that the number two of Al-Qaeda. These are the men of Ali
0:18:22 > 0:18:25
0:18:25 > 0:18:33Abdullah Saleh. They for beside him in the south. We have got one of
0:18:33 > 0:18:38the regiments. It was the government because the President
0:18:38 > 0:18:41had been helping them. You may have a perception problem here with your
0:18:41 > 0:18:47people in Yemen and the international community. The ruling
0:18:47 > 0:18:53party, just a few weeks ago, accused - and they talked about
0:18:53 > 0:19:03examples - accused the opposition coalition of "Using violence,
0:19:03 > 0:19:05
0:19:05 > 0:19:12terrorism and vandalism and making Potter -- making statements
0:19:12 > 0:19:15are."People are fighting, working with the National Security
0:19:15 > 0:19:23Organisation, working with the political security organisations.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28We can prove that. People are siding with the President. He has
0:19:28 > 0:19:34been threatening. The Americans and the West have realised that this
0:19:34 > 0:19:37game has been played for a long time. Do you really think that?
0:19:37 > 0:19:46Knew well one of the International spokesman for the movement of the
0:19:46 > 0:19:56opposition. This is... You say that if we in the opposition are allowed
0:19:56 > 0:19:58
0:19:58 > 0:20:07to take power we will put a lid on Dee Dee Heidi -- on the Jihad
0:20:07 > 0:20:12activists. Why on earth, according to the state media in Yemen, have
0:20:12 > 0:20:17dozens of soldiers being killed by these forces in the last few weeks?
0:20:17 > 0:20:24To yes, they have been killed. soldiers. They are killing the
0:20:24 > 0:20:34opposition forces. The people fighting now other people belonging
0:20:34 > 0:20:36
0:20:36 > 0:20:41to the revolution. The people of STAR -- Saleh... It is complex,
0:20:41 > 0:20:50there is no doubt that in Yemen is complex but we have made deeply
0:20:50 > 0:20:58fragmented country. The opposition includes is almost, tribal groups,
0:20:58 > 0:21:04it is a terrible mess. -- it includes people who want Islam
0:21:04 > 0:21:10forwards. In Yemen you do not have, it is too easy to imagine it
0:21:10 > 0:21:20falling apart. You are very much sympathising the thing. Yemen has
0:21:20 > 0:21:22
0:21:22 > 0:21:26been one entity for the past 3,000 years. That is not true.
0:21:26 > 0:21:34thousands of years, an entity. It is not a new country that has just
0:21:34 > 0:21:40appeared on the map for the past 50, 100 years. I come from an area
0:21:40 > 0:21:45where we had civilian rule, you could say the most advanced
0:21:45 > 0:21:51civilian people in the Arabian peninsula. I want to say this to
0:21:51 > 0:21:57you. In the midst of the violence in March, a man said this - if the
0:21:57 > 0:22:01regime falls there will be chaos. Everyone will carry his own rifle
0:22:01 > 0:22:07and go to his own tribe and our country will be a new Somalia. Do
0:22:07 > 0:22:17you think he was right? No. He was trying to push the country into
0:22:17 > 0:22:21violence. There are 60,000 pieces of firearm. There has not been
0:22:21 > 0:22:27violence. The people who tried to kill the President were trying to
0:22:27 > 0:22:32people. I forgot that you said his
0:22:32 > 0:22:37side did that. This is what you said in May - we are on the verge
0:22:37 > 0:22:46of full blown up civil war. A couple of months later, would you
0:22:46 > 0:22:56say that is inevitable? Still it is a big possibility if President
0:22:56 > 0:22:58
0:22:58 > 0:23:06Soleil is allowed to return. -- President Saleh. He was with his
0:23:06 > 0:23:12family or he's going to push the country into disintegration. That
0:23:12 > 0:23:15is his game. Is it your decision to plough everything on him as an
0:23:15 > 0:23:23individual, responsible for all of this, because that is the only
0:23:23 > 0:23:30thing that unites... It is the regime. A regime that you served in
0:23:30 > 0:23:40for years. Many people have left the regime a long time ago. Mohamed
0:23:40 > 0:23:56
0:23:56 > 0:24:00Qubaty, we have to end the affair. A fairly settled spell of weather
0:24:00 > 0:24:06across the British Isles and it looks set to continue. I am hopeful
0:24:06 > 0:24:11that the new day will be brighter for sums. There will still be an
0:24:11 > 0:24:19awful lot of cloud across the British Isles. There may be some
0:24:19 > 0:24:26showers but that's all it may amount to. More cloud across the
0:24:26 > 0:24:31east coast that we will come to that in just a second. Quite a
0:24:31 > 0:24:34decent start in the southern counties. The further north you are
0:24:34 > 0:24:39in Wales, quite a bit of clout across Northern Ireland but
0:24:39 > 0:24:43essentially a dry start. So too for the greater part of Scotland. You
0:24:43 > 0:24:53will notice some gaps in the cloud. It is not wall-to-wall by any means
0:24:53 > 0:25:03at all. There was a chance of one, two shower was through the day
0:25:03 > 0:25:04
0:25:04 > 0:25:09across the north Norfolk coast. You can see the extent of the sunshine
0:25:09 > 0:25:14across the southern counties. It has been there for the past couple
0:25:14 > 0:25:18of days. As has been the pattern, and you may start with sunshine at
0:25:18 > 0:25:24nine o'clock but as we gone into the afternoon, the cloud beginning
0:25:24 > 0:25:30to build up and spread into some of those gaps. There might be the odd
0:25:30 > 0:25:34shower here or there. There is no organisation to it. The top
0:25:34 > 0:25:43temperature, rather disappointing for this time of year. 18, 19
0:25:43 > 0:25:48degrees. 3 the evening and overnight, some gaps meant well
0:25:48 > 0:25:53filter through. -- into the evening. Temperatures falling into single
0:25:53 > 0:26:03figures again. It is feeling autumnal, particularly if you get
0:26:03 > 0:26:04
0:26:04 > 0:26:09the mist or fog. Single figures into the towns and cities. This is
0:26:09 > 0:26:14the high pressure that is bringing the dry weather, the cloudy weather
0:26:14 > 0:26:21at the moment. Into Thursday, more drivers and temperatures beginning