:00:07. > :00:13.storms swept across the east coast of the US four days ago, causing
:00:13. > :00:16.some rivers to burst their banks. Here in the UK, the government it
:00:16. > :00:22.has indicated controversial plans to shake up the banking system
:00:22. > :00:28.could be delayed until after the election. The reforms are meant to
:00:28. > :00:37.protect taxpayers from the effects of any future financial crisis. --
:00:37. > :00:43.the government has indicated. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Should the
:00:43. > :00:47.law ever give one human being at the right to kill another? That is
:00:47. > :00:55.the question at the heart of this special edition of HARDtalk, which
:00:55. > :01:00.comes from the home of Tony and Jane Nicklinson. Tony is completely
:01:00. > :01:05.paralysed - he wants to die. Jane wants to help him. Currently,
:01:05. > :01:15.British law stands in their wake. If Tony were to be killed, would it
:01:15. > :01:28.
:01:29. > :01:37.be murder or mercy? -- stance in Tony and Jane Nicklinson were
:01:37. > :01:41.married 25 years ago. Six years ago of their world was changed forever.
:01:41. > :01:48.-- six years ago when their world. Tony suffered a massive stroke at
:01:48. > :01:52.the age of 52. He survived, just, but was completely paralysed. The
:01:52. > :01:59.only movement he can control is in his eyes and his blinking but his
:02:00. > :02:04.brain and ability to think are unimpaired. Tony communicates using
:02:04. > :02:11.his eyes and blinks to pick out letters on a board. It is low and,
:02:11. > :02:16.for him, deeply frustrating. Having lived like this for six years, he
:02:16. > :02:21.has had enough. He wants to die. As he cannot kill himself, he wants
:02:21. > :02:25.someone else to end his life for him. Right now, that would be
:02:25. > :02:31.called murder. Tony and Jane would British law changed to give him the
:02:31. > :02:39.right to die. Using a specially adapted computer, Tony explains to
:02:39. > :02:46.me his motivation. Tony Nicklinson, welcome to HARDtalk. I want to ask
:02:46. > :02:49.you the most basic question of all. Why do you want to die? At the
:02:49. > :02:59.moment I want to die because I can see the future being made worse for
:02:59. > :03:07.me than it is now. I feel the next 20 years also with trepidation. --
:03:07. > :03:17.I fear of. I think this is as good as it gets and it is downhill from
:03:17. > :03:20.
:03:20. > :03:25.here. What I know is that not having a plan causes me anguish
:03:25. > :03:29.than people who oppose me do not understand. I am fed like a baby
:03:30. > :03:36.with baby food, cannot do anything for myself and everything is a
:03:36. > :03:39.matter of routine. I live like this for the rest of my life so is it
:03:39. > :03:49.any wonder I am not enthusiastic about living? You want somebody
:03:49. > :03:52.else to be given the legal right to kill you. Would that not create an
:03:52. > :03:56.extraordinarily dangerous precedent, particularly for the most
:03:56. > :04:00.vulnerable disabled people? course it is dangerous if it is not
:04:00. > :04:03.done with care but I do not subscribe to the idea that just
:04:03. > :04:07.because it is difficult we should not do it. There is plenty of
:04:07. > :04:12.examples around the world where it has been done successfully and we
:04:12. > :04:19.can look to them for guidance. I have devised a scheme that shows
:04:19. > :04:27.promise so that if I go, anybody can. I ate do not say it is easy,
:04:27. > :04:37.just possible. -- I do not say. Do you really believe that the non-
:04:37. > :04:40.
:04:40. > :04:44.disabled, who can legally commit suicide... This is Tony before his
:04:44. > :04:48.stroke - an active sportsman, a bit of an adventurer and proud father
:04:48. > :04:53.of two daughters. Now Jane and a team of helpers have to do
:04:54. > :04:58.everything for him. 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He is not
:04:58. > :05:03.terminally ill but despite the love in this time he is terminally fed
:05:03. > :05:12.up with his life. That is something that Jane Nicklinson has to live
:05:12. > :05:19.with. Jane Nicklinson, welcome to HARDtalk. I just heard Tony
:05:19. > :05:26.expressed to me his despair, his sense of hopelessness. How hard is
:05:26. > :05:33.it for you to deal with your own husband saying that sort of thing?
:05:33. > :05:40.It is very hard. It is not unexpected. From the day he was
:05:40. > :05:44.taken ill, we knew what the prognosis was and the day would
:05:44. > :05:50.come but this is what he would want. That is the kind of person he is.
:05:50. > :05:54.You sort of get used to it in a way. We have been thinking about Tony's
:05:54. > :06:03.death for the last six years. It does not make it easier but you get
:06:03. > :06:09.used to it. Has his despair deepened over time? In the very
:06:09. > :06:12.early days, I do not think he was aware of the prognosis. It was one
:06:12. > :06:18.of the first things he said to me when he started using his
:06:18. > :06:23.communication board. I do not think it has been worse. It was bad from
:06:23. > :06:27.the word go. Tony says he wishes he had not been saved by the doctors
:06:27. > :06:35.those six years ago when he had that terrible stroke. Do you say
:06:35. > :06:41.the same thing? Do you wish the doctors had not saved him? Yes and
:06:41. > :06:47.no. At the time when it happened, my daughters were with me and we
:06:47. > :06:55.all said we do not want to live like this. It is a terrible thing
:06:55. > :07:01.to say but, yes. If we have a good day, maybe not but if it is what he
:07:01. > :07:07.wants it is what I want. We have little sense of how you and Tony
:07:07. > :07:13.Live your daily lives. -- a little. What are the biggest frustrations
:07:13. > :07:20.for Tony in his daily life? His biggest frustration is not being
:07:20. > :07:30.able to to communicate. He always said if he could speak it would not
:07:30. > :07:32.
:07:32. > :07:37.be so difficult. It is just everything is total frustration for
:07:37. > :07:45.him. For him and also for you. need different way for me. For him
:07:45. > :07:50.it is day-to-day life, getting up, eating. For me it is frustrating
:07:50. > :07:57.because seen him like this, what life has become for us... For what
:07:57. > :08:01.I am getting out... We will get to the legal issues in a minute. --
:08:01. > :08:06.what I am getting at. It is strange to talk about Tony when he is right
:08:06. > :08:11.here with us. Tony clearly believes his life has been ruined. The
:08:11. > :08:19.question for you is whether you believe your life has been ruined
:08:19. > :08:25.too? I suppose so, yes. I cannot say no because it has. We had so
:08:25. > :08:31.many dreams of the things we were going to do. Yeah. (CRIES). He is
:08:31. > :08:41.gets more and more difficult. Therefore, it would be better for
:08:41. > :08:42.
:08:42. > :08:51.you if Tony were to die, to use that right to die. I do not want
:08:51. > :08:56.him to die. There is no way that I want him to die. I see what his
:08:56. > :09:02.life is. Maybe I do want him to die, not at the moment but the time will
:09:02. > :09:11.come when he has had enough of life. OK, if it is what he wants then
:09:11. > :09:16.that is fine. Let's talk about the legal issues. Right now, of course,
:09:16. > :09:22.given his disabilities, Tony does not have the option of taking his
:09:22. > :09:27.own life. He cannot do that. If someone was to help him, that would
:09:27. > :09:32.be murder. Is it your and Tony's wish to fundamentally change the
:09:32. > :09:36.law? If Fife help Tony to die I would be charged with murder.
:09:36. > :09:41.would be no different if I killed someone in cold blood. We want the
:09:41. > :09:46.law changing. So-called mercy killings should be treated
:09:46. > :09:51.differently. A change in the law on murder - that is what we are after.
:09:51. > :09:55.That is a really profound change, isn't it? You are saying the law
:09:55. > :10:03.would in some way have to create an avenue for somebody to be allowed
:10:03. > :10:07.to take another person's life. Given our tradition of war, our
:10:07. > :10:12.notions about the sanctity of life, it would be extraordinarily
:10:12. > :10:17.difficult and a radical thing to do. How do you think it would be done?
:10:17. > :10:21.I am not sure where we are going for now. It is in the pipeline and
:10:21. > :10:26.we are discussing it with our solicitors. They feel we do have a
:10:26. > :10:31.case. Why should Tony be denied the right to take his own life? It is
:10:31. > :10:36.what he wants and what he is asking for. There should be some system in
:10:36. > :10:40.place. We are not saying it should be legalised Point Blank, going out
:10:40. > :10:48.and kill someone and say, they told me they wanted to die. There would
:10:48. > :10:54.have to be a procedure in place. note UN Tony have talked about this
:10:54. > :10:59.in detail. You would have to. -- you and Tony. Would you be the one
:10:59. > :11:05.to end his life? I think so, yes. I want to be the one to do it. He
:11:05. > :11:12.does not want me to. He wants to make it legal for other people to
:11:12. > :11:18.do what so I do not have to. He wants me to give him a sedative and
:11:18. > :11:25.then someone else come in and give him the euthanasia so I would not
:11:25. > :11:31.have to do it and he would not have to see me. You would have to have a
:11:31. > :11:37.doctor's agreement to be involved. Doctors have made it plain time and
:11:37. > :11:43.time again they will not countenance being involved in the
:11:43. > :11:48.explicit taking of life in this way. It would not necessarily have to be
:11:48. > :11:55.a doctor. I could do it. I think I could. I have been asked this so
:11:55. > :12:01.many times. I think I could do it. I am sure there are doctors out
:12:01. > :12:05.there that would come forward. argument against it is that it
:12:05. > :12:10.opens up an extraordinarily dangerous precedent, that if it
:12:10. > :12:16.becomes, in certain situations, legal to kill the disabled, the
:12:16. > :12:20.most vulnerable in our society, that very soon summed vulnerable
:12:20. > :12:27.people may feel that almost they are obliged to take the option of
:12:27. > :12:31.choosing death. Not if there was some sort of scheme in place. It
:12:31. > :12:36.would obviously have to be very carefully thought out. There would
:12:36. > :12:39.have to be a process you would have to go through to be able to do it.
:12:39. > :12:47.Tony has devised a scheme of his own. Whether it is that was
:12:47. > :12:52.something similar, it would have to be carefully thought. If there can
:12:52. > :12:57.be a way for it to be done, why can anyone else take their life but
:12:57. > :13:02.Tony cannot? He knows what he wants to do but he physically cannot do
:13:02. > :13:11.it. You say he knows what he wants to do. Another argument from those
:13:11. > :13:15.in the religious community and others is that minds can be changed.
:13:15. > :13:20.Tony could change his mind. Have you discounted that? You could say
:13:20. > :13:25.that about straightforward suicide. Suicide is legal for able-bodied
:13:25. > :13:29.people. Their minds could be changed if things were different.
:13:29. > :13:33.Why is ordinary suicide legal? in relatives of suicide victims
:13:33. > :13:39.would say, if only I had that opportunity to talk them out of it,
:13:39. > :13:45.to make the case that it was the wrong option to take. If only, I
:13:45. > :13:49.might have saved them. Because Tony cannot do it for himself, society,
:13:49. > :13:53.starting with you, has that option to try and persuade him. He has
:13:53. > :14:01.been like this for six years and he has not changed his mind yet. Who
:14:01. > :14:06.knows, in the future? That is life, isn't it? I know Tony, for example,
:14:06. > :14:10.using his computer, is writing his memoirs. You have described how he
:14:10. > :14:15.is enjoying that process of remembering his past life, writing
:14:15. > :14:20.about it, some of the adventures you two had together. That suggests
:14:20. > :14:26.to me that there is still a way to get some enjoyment out of life and
:14:26. > :14:33.that seems important. It is not enough, though, is it? It is not
:14:33. > :14:43.enough for him. He wants to say something. Can I do it? Yes, of
:14:43. > :15:04.
:15:04. > :15:14.course. What a... -- what...if...I...feel...
:15:14. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:35.Is...not...the...same. As...ordinary? The reason why Tony
:15:35. > :15:39.wants to commit suicide cannot be solved. This is as good as life is
:15:39. > :15:42.ever going to be for him. argument made by those who oppose
:15:42. > :15:50.the kind of legal changes you want to see is that palliative care can
:15:50. > :15:59.make your life better. There are ways in which care can improve the
:15:59. > :16:03.quality of your life. Is it too late for that now? There is nothing
:16:03. > :16:13.really. Everyone is different. We all have different expectations
:16:13. > :16:17.from life. If you knew Tony before, he is an ex-rugby player, life of
:16:17. > :16:23.the party, adventurer, we travelled around the world, he was good at
:16:23. > :16:30.his job. All the things he loved about life he cannot do. I just
:16:30. > :16:40.wonder how far you are prepared to go, the two of you, when it comes
:16:40. > :16:44.to see him through this wish to die. After we see through the court case,
:16:44. > :16:54.the only option Tony has is to starve himself. He could go to
:16:54. > :17:04.You are referring to the fact it is legal to assist suicide in
:17:04. > :17:04.
:17:04. > :17:08.Switzerland. Could Dignitas create a system and where it could be an
:17:08. > :17:15.assisted suicide? I have been in touch with them at what they said
:17:15. > :17:18.they could set up a system and he could operate it with a switch.
:17:18. > :17:23.question is, if that is a possibility, of course it would
:17:23. > :17:27.take money, if that is a possibility, why spend so much time
:17:27. > :17:32.and effort going through the British courts. Everything I have
:17:32. > :17:37.seen in the court papers, from traditional verdicts in the past,
:17:37. > :17:43.to the words of judges, it suggests it is highly unlikely they will
:17:43. > :17:47.modify the law on murder. Tony does not see why he should go to switch
:17:47. > :17:52.alone to die. He wants to die at home with his family around him,
:17:52. > :17:58.not in some strange country. -- go to Switzerland. The journey itself
:17:58. > :18:03.would be incredibly traumatic for him. Why should he have to? I ask
:18:03. > :18:11.you some very sensitive questions about your feelings about Tory's
:18:11. > :18:17.death and whether, to be brutal about it, if Tony's end would be a
:18:17. > :18:22.release for you. That raises the issue of vested interests from
:18:22. > :18:28.those around somebody who is suffering, as Tony is. Can you see
:18:28. > :18:33.the danger is there, but it might come to a point where, if the laws
:18:33. > :18:40.you wanted a past, family members, others with an interest, they could
:18:40. > :18:45.be persuading vulnerable people to end their lives? I am sure that
:18:45. > :18:50.happens with ordinary suicide cases. Ordinary suicide is not legal. I am
:18:50. > :18:56.sure people are coerced into committing suicide. It could happen.
:18:56. > :19:04.What safeguards could you imagine to prevent it? If you allow people
:19:04. > :19:08.-- the systems must be added to do enough. I think it Tony has come up
:19:08. > :19:11.with the idea that the judge would have to be involved at every stage
:19:12. > :19:16.of the process and there would be months and months of a cooling-off
:19:16. > :19:21.period between an initial decision to allow the death and the actual
:19:21. > :19:27.implementation of that decision. Do you really believe that would be
:19:27. > :19:34.enough? I think so, yes. We all know what the pitfalls are and
:19:34. > :19:41.hopefully this system would be able to prevent those. Tony's life is
:19:41. > :19:46.hell, basically. He is being forced to live it. It is like a form of
:19:46. > :19:51.torture, you could say. There has to be a way that something could be
:19:51. > :19:58.sorted out. Each case has to be taken on its on merit. There are
:19:58. > :20:02.indications that the British public has a great deal of sympathy with
:20:02. > :20:09.many of the arguments you are making and, in the past, when there
:20:09. > :20:15.have been deaths which have been associated with this idea of mercy
:20:15. > :20:19.killing, jurors have tended to show sympathy for those behind those
:20:19. > :20:27.killings in their verdicts. Does that make you consider the
:20:27. > :20:33.possibility of ignoring the law, and SES taking the law into your
:20:33. > :20:39.own hands, and relying on the sympathy of a jury? -- in essence.
:20:39. > :20:45.That is a big risk to date. As much as I love him, I am not sure if I
:20:45. > :20:50.am prepared to spend time in prison. -- big risk to take. He would not
:20:50. > :20:58.let me do it. It would have to be legal. I have got my children to
:20:58. > :21:03.think about. No, I could not do that. Have you talked about it?
:21:03. > :21:07.has always made it very clear from the word go that they do is no way
:21:07. > :21:12.he did let me do it because he would not want to risk it. I admire
:21:12. > :21:16.people that can do it. I know there have been some quite high profile
:21:16. > :21:26.cases recently. It takes a lot of guts to be able to do something
:21:26. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:39.like that. I personally could not. I wonder how some people would
:21:39. > :21:48.respond to this. You on a full-time carer, it dominates your life, you
:21:48. > :21:53.talk about your daughters, they want to see their father but what
:21:53. > :21:58.do they say to you? They are 100 % behind everything that we're doing.
:21:58. > :22:02.When we have talked about just doing it and breaking the law, they
:22:02. > :22:08.were horrified to think that I would even think about doing it. It
:22:08. > :22:13.is hard for them. It is very hard for them. They fully understand
:22:13. > :22:18.what their dad was like. They know what he was like before he was
:22:18. > :22:26.taken ill. He was a total embarrassment! But, they are
:22:26. > :22:31.totally behind us. You have the look of for wife who has lived the
:22:31. > :22:35.life with someone, loved someone, been with them for your adult life,
:22:35. > :22:44.in the course of this interview, I get a strong sense of a bond
:22:44. > :22:52.between you and Tony. Yet, all four conversations on about how to end
:22:52. > :22:58.his life. -- All of our conversation is about. For you, you
:22:58. > :23:03.are in an impossible position. could be totally selfish and want
:23:03. > :23:11.him to carry on living but that would be selfish. I have got to do
:23:11. > :23:15.what he wants to do. I support him and I have to. If I did not support
:23:15. > :23:22.him when he needed me to support him, just the practicalities of
:23:22. > :23:26.that, I do support him and this is very hard but you're constantly
:23:26. > :23:32.talking about how your husband is going to die. We have been living
:23:32. > :23:38.with it for six years. It does become easier. The final thought,
:23:38. > :23:43.you are living in a very personal way with this but you're also
:23:43. > :23:49.dealing with the system, whether it is the legal system, politicians,
:23:49. > :23:55.the health service, doctors, it is this, frankly, the moment, nobody
:23:55. > :24:02.wants to offer you a fortune really want. -- doctors, people concerned
:24:02. > :24:06.with ethics. Nobody wants to offer you what you want. Everything that
:24:06. > :24:11.has happened with the legal case up until now has not been unexpected.
:24:11. > :24:16.It is what we have been expecting all the time. It is what happens
:24:16. > :24:22.from now do it is important. We knew that this would probably be
:24:22. > :24:26.the outcome. They don't feel that we have a case. We knew that was
:24:26. > :24:31.going to happen. It is the interesting but that comes from the
:24:31. > :24:38.one. What that will be, I do not know yet. You have got the strength
:24:38. > :24:44.to carry on with his caring. Yes, definitely. I think he quite enjoys
:24:44. > :24:54.it in a way, don't you? Jane Nicklinson and Tony, as well, thank
:24:54. > :25:10.
:25:10. > :25:14.you both for being on HARDtalk. As August turns into September,
:25:14. > :25:21.there are no significant changes in the weather. We will have to wait
:25:21. > :25:25.until Friday for those. For some others, the return of some sunshine.
:25:25. > :25:35.If you are underneath blue-sky, it will feel warmer than it has done
:25:35. > :25:36.
:25:36. > :25:39.recently. Here is a look at things for early risers. The most of the
:25:39. > :25:42.sunshine will be across southern England and into Wales. As we run
:25:42. > :25:46.along southern England this morning, don't necessarily expect clear blue
:25:46. > :25:50.skies. There could be a few early showers and some cloud. Most places
:25:50. > :25:53.will stay dry. A bit of mist and fog in some places. For north-west
:25:53. > :25:56.England, it is looking rather cloudy for breakfast time. A lot of
:25:56. > :26:00.cloud in Northern Ireland. Every now and again, a burst of sunshine
:26:00. > :26:07.will fight its way through. 12 degrees in Belfast at this stage.
:26:07. > :26:10.Despite some cloud in Scotland, much of the country stays dry. Some
:26:10. > :26:16.breaks in the cloud in the east of the country. Some very light
:26:16. > :26:20.breezes in the east of England. That is early on, for the rest of
:26:20. > :26:23.the day, the best of the sunshine still in southern England and Wales.
:26:23. > :26:30.Still cloudy skies but, for some, the sun will break through.
:26:30. > :26:33.Temperatures in the low 20s in the south. A freshening breeze and the
:26:33. > :26:43.far north-west should mean some outbreaks of rain for the Western
:26:43. > :26:45.
:26:45. > :26:55.Isles. For the US Open, a dry end to the week after the drama of
:26:55. > :26:57.
:26:57. > :27:00.Hurricane Irene to begin the week. We have got our own changes in the
:27:00. > :27:10.weather going into Friday with high pressure moving away and a frontal
:27:10. > :27:11.
:27:11. > :27:17.system coming in from the Atlantic. The fund will Beacon moving south
:27:17. > :27:21.on Friday. -- the front will weaken. Another system will come in and
:27:21. > :27:24.replace it. Cloud in patchy rain in Northern England and North Wales.
:27:24. > :27:30.More persistent rain in Northern Ireland and Scotland later in the
:27:30. > :27:34.day. It will be even warmer inEngland than it was today. For a