:00:10. > :00:18.Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk, on the shores of Lake
:00:19. > :00:24.Como in northern Italy. My guest today genet here from Cairo. Amr
:00:24. > :00:28.Moussa is widely tipped to beat Egypt's next President. He was
:00:28. > :00:38.Hosni Mubarak's Foreign Minister and then was the chief of the Arab
:00:38. > :00:39.
:00:39. > :00:49.League. Can he deliver the profound political change that so many
:00:49. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :01:03.Egyptians crave after their un unevolution?
:01:03. > :01:08.Amr Moussa, welcome to HARDtalk. Hosni Mubarak was toppled from
:01:08. > :01:18.power in February. It is more than si siater and Egypt is being
:01:18. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:28.run by a military government. The trust it? -- do you trust it. It
:01:28. > :01:35.has been handed over the authority to rule Egypt and the
:01:35. > :01:41.demonstrations of the people supported that. It came with
:01:41. > :01:46.popular support. At the same time the army was supportive, even
:01:46. > :01:52.protective of the demonstrators. There was a kind of understanding
:01:52. > :01:57.that a transitional period will be managed by the council. As the
:01:57. > :02:02.saying goes, that was then and this is now. What we see now is that
:02:02. > :02:06.elections have been postponed, it seems until November - presidential
:02:06. > :02:15.elections will not happen this year as was originally planned. More
:02:15. > :02:22.than that... We should be worried. We shall continue to be worried
:02:22. > :02:27.because things are not yet determined one way or the other. It
:02:27. > :02:32.is healthy, a healthy thing for an Egyptian citizen to be worried
:02:32. > :02:39.about his country and the future of his country. The question of
:02:39. > :02:44.elections, yes indeed I am one of those who supported that the
:02:44. > :02:53.presidential elections should be run. Then comes the parliamentary
:02:54. > :03:03.elections. We wanted a civilian president to preside over the
:03:03. > :03:06.process and end the transitional period. That is not going to happen.
:03:07. > :03:16.This will not happen immediately but if the parliamentary elections
:03:17. > :03:17.
:03:17. > :03:21.take place in the proper way, under good security arrangements and that
:03:21. > :03:28.immediately after they are followed by a presidential elections, that
:03:28. > :03:33.will do. Can I come back to my original, simple question. Right
:03:33. > :03:40.now, given the situation in Egypt today the EU trust the head of the
:03:40. > :03:46.Supreme Military Council and his counsel to do the right thing by
:03:46. > :03:51.democracy? I trust them because they have said that they do not
:03:51. > :03:56.want to stay for any longer, any more are in power and want to
:03:56. > :04:02.handover the power to the elected representatives, either of
:04:02. > :04:07.Parliament or a president. The fear out that the revolution may be
:04:07. > :04:12.stolen that is expressed by some of the Tahrir Square protesters is
:04:12. > :04:19.based on several things. Thousands of protesters who were detained by
:04:19. > :04:25.the security forces in February, March, April, remain in custody.
:04:25. > :04:35.fully agree with what the people demand on the military and civilian
:04:35. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:48.trial. I called for the natural law of the country to be the overseer.
:04:48. > :04:56.You just day-to-day clear possession. -- you just stated a
:04:56. > :05:00.clear situation. Should we continue, day after day with demonstrating or
:05:00. > :05:05.we have to do something else. Demonstrations will take a
:05:05. > :05:09.different shape. Given the thousands in detention, the fact
:05:09. > :05:14.that the military had declared the strikes illegal, the fact that
:05:14. > :05:18.Tahrir Square has been cleared out, some on the use committees have
:05:18. > :05:26.called for a mass protest. They want over one million people on
:05:26. > :05:31.Tahrir Square on September 9th. Will you be at the forefront of the
:05:31. > :05:40.protest? I am in favour of them protesting the way they want to
:05:40. > :05:48.protest... Will he be there? -- will you be there? At the front?
:05:48. > :05:52.The reason I push you is that new will be aware, as I am, that there
:05:52. > :05:57.are elements within the youth movement in particular that
:05:57. > :06:06.question your commitment to a genuine, Democratic Reform Movement
:06:06. > :06:10.in Egypt. To quote the call of nature of one of the movements, you
:06:10. > :06:18.had the chance to support the revolution's early and refused. You
:06:18. > :06:28.were watching. Bath did you were sure that Mubarak was a darling,
:06:28. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:35.you've joined them. -- after it you were sure that he was going.
:06:35. > :06:39.doubt that this quotation is correct or even the man that says
:06:39. > :06:49.that is correct. Egypt now is full of people that will say anything
:06:49. > :06:50.
:06:50. > :06:53.because nobody asks them to authenticate what they are saying.
:06:53. > :07:00.That was there a week before the President left and became the
:07:00. > :07:06.former president. If I may say so, maybe people like him that the
:07:06. > :07:11.judge you on your record, the longer term record. They say where
:07:11. > :07:21.was Amr Moussa during the years he served loyally to the Mubarak
:07:21. > :07:28.government? For where was his voice for so many years? What is your
:07:28. > :07:32.response to that. You can say so, as they like. My opinion and
:07:32. > :07:39.position was very clear out on so many issues of that kind, internal
:07:39. > :07:49.and external affairs. I disapprove of certain things. You want to be
:07:49. > :07:50.
:07:50. > :07:57.eat at's next President, the first elected President post the
:07:57. > :08:04.revolution. If Hosni Mubarak is convicted of the crimes he is
:08:04. > :08:13.convicted, would you offer him a pardon, clemency or not? I wonder
:08:13. > :08:17.how a person like you could ask such a question. The people are
:08:17. > :08:22.going to elect a president who should work within the framework of
:08:23. > :08:28.a constitution. This is not going to give the President all authority
:08:28. > :08:34.over such things. In such cases if they request is referred to me, I
:08:34. > :08:41.shall refer it to the parliament to be decided. The next president is
:08:41. > :08:48.not going to be a dictator. We are talking about a constitutional
:08:48. > :08:53.President. Let me ask you about your vision for Egypt. People want
:08:53. > :08:57.to know, if you want to leave the country, they want to know what you
:08:57. > :09:07.stand for. How could you encapsulate your vision for the
:09:07. > :09:08.
:09:08. > :09:14.future... First of all, rebuild Egypt. Egypt has been left in total
:09:14. > :09:22.disarray in so many areas of life. We have to rebuild the country.
:09:22. > :09:29.Based on three basic items of a major political agenda - number one,
:09:29. > :09:35.democracy, number two reform and number three, development. The
:09:35. > :09:42.country needs reform in all four corners of our lives. Development -
:09:42. > :09:48.that would reach the poor. One of the mistakes of the past economic
:09:48. > :09:54.policies that has not been addressed, to extend that now we
:09:54. > :10:00.have almost 50% if not more of the Egyptian people that live around
:10:00. > :10:07.the poverty line. Let me ask you about the Muslim Brotherhood and
:10:07. > :10:16.other Islamic parties that will be a power or in the elections. Are
:10:16. > :10:26.you ready to work with them? Democracy is a democracy. To read
:10:26. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:36.an election to prevent this or that clips from winning? -- to rig to
:10:36. > :10:41.prevent a group winning? If they have a significant, a controlling
:10:41. > :10:44.power over the new parliament... believe they will have a sizable
:10:44. > :10:52.number are and this will be the result of democracy and we should
:10:52. > :11:00.accept it. He would engage with them over their desire to see a
:11:00. > :11:06.much more Muslim Egypt? There will be other sizable numbers. A debate
:11:06. > :11:15.will take place. They will support one point of view and others will
:11:15. > :11:21.have a different point of view. the Egyptians listen to you they
:11:21. > :11:26.want to try to figure out what you stand for. I stand for a civil
:11:26. > :11:32.society and a clear constitution, a modern constitution that guarantees
:11:32. > :11:41.the liberty of everybody with an article dealing with the Islamic
:11:41. > :11:47.reference. As it exists at today, I am for it, everyone is for it but
:11:47. > :11:57.also for the stipulation that all Egyptians are equal before the law
:11:57. > :12:02.
:12:02. > :12:08.regardless of religion, cholera, creed. -- colour, creed. There has
:12:08. > :12:14.been a major controversy in Cairo because scholars have demanded that
:12:14. > :12:20.Cairo University, in its literature department, stop depicting a set
:12:20. > :12:26.text depicting a lesbian relationship. It is one small case
:12:27. > :12:33.but... This is a small case! I want to know whether you believe.
:12:33. > :12:39.you're trying to be trivial now why we are talking about a major issue!
:12:39. > :12:43.Why should we accept lesbian? What is the measure for that? Those sort
:12:44. > :12:49.of cultural issues, you believe, are not important in defining the
:12:49. > :12:54.more he did? There are more important things than this question
:12:54. > :12:59.about lesbians. There are exceptions. Why should you raise
:12:59. > :13:03.such things when we are talking about basic rights, constitution,
:13:03. > :13:09.the future of Egypt as if everything relies on that. I refuse
:13:09. > :13:19.that logic! I am just trying to get a sense of the Egypt that you want
:13:19. > :13:22.
:13:22. > :13:28.to see. Egypt is much bigger to be Let me ask you about Israel. He
:13:28. > :13:33.spent many a long year dealing with it. As a citizen of Egypt. In deed.
:13:33. > :13:38.Do you want to see a realignment of Egypt's foreign policy, a tougher
:13:38. > :13:43.stance against Israel? The Egyptian policy is very clear and it should
:13:43. > :13:51.be. As far as the conflict is concerned, we should stick to the
:13:51. > :13:56.Arab nations. The agreement in 2002 is the basic document but Egypt
:13:56. > :14:03.will follow in relation to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This is the
:14:03. > :14:06.constitution that we are going to stick to. The in the immediate
:14:06. > :14:11.aftermath of the downfall of Hosni Mubarak, the Foreign Minister has
:14:11. > :14:17.moved on but he started using a new language. We heard the Egyptian
:14:17. > :14:21.government refer to Israel as the enemy. Reaching out to Hamas. A
:14:21. > :14:26.warming-up of relations with Iran. Reaching out to Hamas is not wrong,
:14:27. > :14:29.it is the right thing to do. They are Palestinians. What the Egyptian
:14:29. > :14:34.government tried to do is bring both of them together and they were
:14:34. > :14:44.working on that before the fall of my Barack and after the fall of my
:14:44. > :14:46.
:14:46. > :14:51.Barack. -- Mubarak. -- Mubarak. to that describing his well as the
:14:51. > :14:57.enemy? Who did? We have reports of this. You can pick and choose
:14:57. > :15:02.things. Definitely, Israel is anniversary when it comes to the
:15:02. > :15:12.Palestinian question, when it comes to the rights of Palestinians. --
:15:12. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:16.and add bursary. -- an adversary. We had a peace treaty with Israel.
:15:16. > :15:21.This treaty is to be respected provided they respected as well.
:15:21. > :15:26.That leads to another interesting question. What we saw last month
:15:26. > :15:32.was violence across the Israel- Egypt border. An incursion from
:15:33. > :15:38.Sinai into Israel. It was an incursion from the other direction.
:15:38. > :15:42.Both ways. The Israelis insist militants attacked targets inside
:15:42. > :15:51.Israel. Our government insists it was the other way around and I
:15:51. > :15:55.stick with that. The Bottom Line is this - there was a recent report
:15:55. > :16:01.that you sign a protest document, which called for the expulsion of
:16:01. > :16:09.Israel's ambassador, more Egyptian troops into the Sinai and the hall
:16:09. > :16:18.to a natural gas exports to Israel. -- the halt of. A supported the
:16:18. > :16:23.recalling of the ambassador. After the Israelis embarked on certain
:16:23. > :16:28.violations. Right now, this is important, people will be watching
:16:28. > :16:31.this in Israel and across the world. They wanted to know what kind of
:16:31. > :16:37.Egyptian the do you might be. Do you believe it will be the right
:16:37. > :16:44.thing to do to expel is well's ambassador, to cut of natural gas
:16:44. > :16:49.supplies? -- is well's. You are putting that very crudely. Had I
:16:49. > :16:59.been Foreign Minister, I would have recalled the ambassador, first
:16:59. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:13.thing. We should revisit this agreement. Really? A will tell you
:17:13. > :17:13.
:17:13. > :17:19.why. It was not the right one. It was a case of corruption linked to
:17:19. > :17:26.that deal. As a government official, if there was a case of corruption,
:17:26. > :17:30.if the Egyptian negotiators indeed excepted a price that was much
:17:30. > :17:36.lower than the international prize and the fact that Jordan has agreed
:17:36. > :17:42.recently to increase the price of gas, why not do the same as the
:17:42. > :17:47.Israelis? It is interesting the tone you take it on relations with
:17:47. > :17:52.Israel. You talked on the importance of listening to the
:17:52. > :17:57.Egyptian people. Opinion polls suggest the majority of Egyptians
:17:57. > :18:01.support either radical amendment or the revoking of the Camp David
:18:01. > :18:07.peace accords between Egypt and Israel. Is that something you would
:18:07. > :18:11.consider as leader? First of all, the document is not applicable
:18:11. > :18:18.anymore. It has been replaced by the treaty. Let us call it the
:18:18. > :18:23.peace treaty. The current peace treaty. As we are going to be
:18:23. > :18:28.involved, more and more, in rebuild in Egypt, we are not going to take
:18:28. > :18:33.an adventurous foreign policy. have little time left and before we
:18:33. > :18:39.end, I must ask you about the bigger Arab world picture. The so-
:18:39. > :18:44.called Arab Spring. If you are the leader of the Post-revolutionary
:18:44. > :18:54.Egypt, will you make it your business to try and extend this
:18:54. > :18:58.there of democracy across the region? -- the sphere. I believe
:18:58. > :19:02.that should be the centrepiece of Egyptian democracy, to support
:19:02. > :19:06.modernisation and a change. Is it therefore not a problem that also
:19:06. > :19:10.long, as Foreign Minister and secretary general of the Arab
:19:11. > :19:15.League, you have had extraordinarily close and friendly
:19:15. > :19:22.partnership relations with a whole host of authoritarian leaders
:19:22. > :19:28.across the region? I hope, when we meet next time, you will have read
:19:28. > :19:36.more about what I have done in the Arab League. Most of the proposals,
:19:36. > :19:40.the resolutions, about changing, modernising the Arab world,
:19:40. > :19:46.development, they were introduced by me. Read the documents. I have
:19:46. > :19:52.read many of your speeches. speeches, resolutions. Ministerial
:19:52. > :19:59.resolutions. They called for change. Let's talk about the delivery of
:19:59. > :20:07.change. In brief, yes or no, do you support the Western intervention to
:20:07. > :20:10.deliver the ousting of Gaddafi? as secretary general of the Arab
:20:10. > :20:17.League, implement the resolution adopted by the council in putting
:20:17. > :20:22.the matter before the Security Council. How the security council
:20:22. > :20:26.acted is a different story but my role was to put the case of
:20:26. > :20:34.attacking civilians in Libya before the Security Council to prevent it.
:20:34. > :20:44.As we sit here today, are you pleased to see Green Square renamed
:20:44. > :20:44.
:20:44. > :20:49.Marta's Square. -- Martyrs'. Are you happy to see the Gaddafi family
:20:49. > :20:53.out of the country? This change was necessary and I am. Let us talks
:20:53. > :20:59.Syria. Would you like to see the Arab League, Arab countries taking
:20:59. > :21:06.much more proactive interventionist stance to get Bashar al-Assad out
:21:06. > :21:16.of Syria? We try to intervene in the early days. The revolution in
:21:16. > :21:16.
:21:16. > :21:26.Syria. Some of the Arab countries neighbouring Syria advised that we
:21:26. > :21:31.should move slowly. Until things were clear. My inclination was, do
:21:31. > :21:35.not touched the demonstrators. Do not choose violence against the
:21:35. > :21:39.people and their demonstrations or protests. This was my put his --
:21:39. > :21:43.position and continues to be my position. In the Guardian, I read a
:21:44. > :21:47.powerful piece by a Syrian opposition figure saying, we do not
:21:47. > :21:52.want the West to intervene in Syria. The Syrian people do not want that
:21:52. > :21:57.but what we would like to see is the Arab world and Turkey doing
:21:57. > :22:02.everything in their power to get Bashar al-Assad out. If you were
:22:03. > :22:08.the next elected leader of Egypt? Will that be your mission? Are we
:22:08. > :22:13.going to stay until I am elected some time next year? We have to act
:22:13. > :22:17.now. Arab countries and society have to act now and asked the
:22:17. > :22:23.Syrian authorities to stop using violence against the Syrian
:22:23. > :22:31.population. And if not, they should come back to the Arab League and
:22:31. > :22:35.asked for sanctions as they did against Libya. I hope they will
:22:35. > :22:41.come back with such a recommendation. In short, you want
:22:42. > :22:46.to see the complete isolation of Syria from the Arab world? No. I
:22:46. > :22:52.want the change to take place in those Arab countries. I want them
:22:52. > :22:58.to understand, all of them, at the time has come for them to
:22:58. > :23:05.understand that people cannot accept the continuation of their
:23:05. > :23:09.life under pressure and under dictatorship and so on. This is the
:23:09. > :23:12.point a call on them to understand. This is a historic dimension and a
:23:12. > :23:20.historic to the top and which is going to take place whether they
:23:20. > :23:25.like it or not. -- to take place. senior figure in the Social
:23:25. > :23:28.Democratic Party, a small party in Egypt, he said the other day, it
:23:28. > :23:34.Egypt built a modern, secular state it will have an impact across the
:23:34. > :23:40.whole region but if Egypt goes into a dark tunnel, it will take the
:23:40. > :23:45.whole region with it. Do you agree? Yes. Which way is Egypt going to
:23:45. > :23:49.go? I agree with the general meaning of what the gentleman has
:23:49. > :23:55.said but I hope Egypt will be the Engine to take the whole of the
:23:55. > :24:00.Middle East behind it into more open horizons of democracy, of
:24:00. > :24:05.prosperity and freedom. I hope so. Egypt is capable of doing so.
:24:06. > :24:15.Moussa, we have to end there. Thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
:24:16. > :24:33.
:24:33. > :24:37.Good morning. It looked as though the weather knew that most children
:24:37. > :24:40.go back to school this week. There has been a change of weather. The
:24:40. > :24:43.summer holidays are over. Autumn has well and truly arrived. Quite
:24:43. > :24:47.cool this week. Rain at times and pretty windy as well. Plenty of
:24:47. > :24:50.leaves blown off the trees over the next couple of days. This area of
:24:50. > :24:54.low pressure moves in and look how tightly packed the isobars are. It
:24:54. > :25:02.means it will be a windy start to the day. Temperatures will sit in
:25:02. > :25:06.double figures. With the cloud, rain and win, you won't bother
:25:06. > :25:09.about that. The most important thing is it will be a grey or wet
:25:09. > :25:12.for the start of your journey to school or work. At eight o'clock in
:25:12. > :25:16.the morning, plenty of rain in England. That extends down into
:25:16. > :25:20.East Anglia. A grey, wet morning in the south-east. Along that south
:25:20. > :25:24.coast, a similar story. We might see indications across South Wales
:25:24. > :25:26.of some of that rain but the south- west in general will be grey and
:25:26. > :25:33.wet. Perhaps some brightness starting to develop across Wales
:25:33. > :25:43.but further inland, rather grey, wet and windy too. It is going to
:25:43. > :25:44.
:25:44. > :25:48.be a case of dry across Northern Ireland but showers gather. Won't
:25:48. > :25:52.be long before we see frequent showers. A real clump of heavy rain
:25:52. > :25:55.across western Scotland for a time. It really is going to be a scenario
:25:55. > :25:59.of plenty of showers. A lot of rain around first thing in the morning.
:25:59. > :26:02.As the day continues, the bulk of the rain will drift south and east,
:26:02. > :26:05.allowing for a slightly brighter start. The wind is still with us
:26:05. > :26:09.throughout the day and will drive showers along the west coast. Some
:26:09. > :26:11.will filter further inland in the afternoon. The best of the weather,
:26:11. > :26:14.perhaps, reserved for the second half of the day. Temperatures
:26:14. > :26:18.gradually cranking their way up towards 16 or 18 degrees. Not
:26:18. > :26:20.brilliant out there by any means. If you're heading off to the Rose
:26:20. > :26:23.Bowl watch the one-day international, a wet start but
:26:23. > :26:30.hopefully there will be some play in the afternoon. You can listen to
:26:30. > :26:33.that on 5 live. Once the rain clears away, it stays pretty breezy
:26:33. > :26:36.throughout the week and further showers driven along by the
:26:36. > :26:46.westerly wind. A rather unsettled scenario. On Wednesday, a breezy
:26:46. > :26:47.
:26:47. > :26:50.day. The best of any brightness perhaps in sheltered south-eastern
:26:50. > :26:53.areas, temperatures up to 20 degrees. From Thursday and Friday