:00:06. > :00:09.The headlines: The whereabouts of Colonel Gaddafi remains a mystery.
:00:09. > :00:16.US officials say that some senior members of the Colonel Gaddafi
:00:16. > :00:20.leadership were in a convoy heading to Niger.
:00:20. > :00:25.There have been fresh allegations surrounding the circumstances of
:00:25. > :00:29.the release of the Lockerbie bomber. It has been claimed that his
:00:29. > :00:38.release was discussed with the British Government and linked to a
:00:38. > :00:43.contract with the oil company BP. The transferor detainee is to some
:00:43. > :00:47.Afghan jails has been suspended following allegations of torture. A
:00:47. > :00:57.report says prisoners have been subjected to abuse, including being
:00:57. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:09.beaten and given electric shocks. Those are the headlines.
:01:09. > :01:14.Now it is time for HARDtalk. Should the law ever give one human being
:01:14. > :01:18.the right to kill another? That is the question at the heart
:01:18. > :01:21.of this special edition of HARDtalk, which comes from the home of Tony
:01:21. > :01:31.and Jane Nicklinson. Tony is completely paralysed - he wants to
:01:31. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:39.die. Jane wants to help him. Currently, British law stands in
:01:39. > :01:49.their way. If Tony were to be killed, would it be murder or
:01:49. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:05.mercy? Tony and Jane Nicklinson were
:02:05. > :02:13.married 25 years ago. Six years ago their world was changed forever.
:02:13. > :02:19.Tony suffered a massive stroke at the age of 52. He survived, just,
:02:19. > :02:22.but was completely paralysed. The only movement he can control is in
:02:22. > :02:32.his eyes and his blinking but his brain and ability to think are
:02:32. > :02:46.
:02:46. > :02:50.unimpaired. Letter...I...letter...A. Tony communicates using his eyes
:02:50. > :02:53.and blinks to pick out letters on a board. It is slow and, for him,
:02:53. > :02:57.deeply frustrating. Having lived like this for six years, he has had
:02:57. > :03:00.enough. He wants to die. As he cannot kill himself, he wants
:03:00. > :03:04.someone else to end his life for him. Right now, that would be
:03:04. > :03:07.called murder. Tony and Jane want British law changed to give him the
:03:07. > :03:10.right to die. Using a specially adapted computer, Tony explains to
:03:11. > :03:20.me his motivation. Tony Nicklinson, welcome to HARDtalk. I want to ask
:03:21. > :03:21.
:03:21. > :03:25.you the most basic question of all. Why do you want to die? At the
:03:25. > :03:31.moment I want to die because I can see the future being worse for me
:03:31. > :03:41.than it is now. I fear the next 20 years also with trepidation. I
:03:41. > :04:01.
:04:01. > :04:05.think this is as good as it gets and it is downhill from here. If I
:04:05. > :04:09.knew the comfort of suicide was available, who knows, I might not
:04:09. > :04:13.want to take my life. What I know is that not having a plan causes me
:04:13. > :04:17.anguish that the people who oppose me do not understand. I am fed like
:04:17. > :04:21.a baby with baby food, cannot do anything for myself and everything
:04:21. > :04:25.is a matter of routine. I will live like this for the rest of my life
:04:25. > :04:29.so is it any wonder I am not enthusiastic about living? You want
:04:29. > :04:31.somebody else to be given the legal right to kill you. Would that not
:04:31. > :04:35.create an extraordinarily dangerous precedent, particularly for the
:04:35. > :04:40.most vulnerable disabled people? course it is dangerous if it is not
:04:40. > :04:44.subscribe to the idea that just because it is difficult we should
:04:44. > :04:47.not do it. There are plenty of examples around the world where it
:04:47. > :04:51.has been done successfully and we can look to them for guidance. I
:04:51. > :05:01.have devised a scheme that shows promise so that if I go, anybody
:05:01. > :05:04.
:05:04. > :05:08.can. I do not say it is easy, just possible. Pro-lifers often say this
:05:08. > :05:13.would open the floodgates. Nonsense. Do you really believe that the non-
:05:13. > :05:17.disabled, who can legally commit suicide... This is Tony before his
:05:17. > :05:20.stroke - an active sportsman, a bit of an adventurer and proud father
:05:20. > :05:30.of two daughters. Now Jane and a team of helpers have to do
:05:30. > :05:33.everything for him. 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He is not
:05:33. > :05:37.terminally ill but despite the love in this home he is terminally fed
:05:37. > :05:46.up with his life. That is something that Jane Nicklinson has to live
:05:46. > :05:54.with. Jane Nicklinson, welcome to to me his despair, his sense of
:05:54. > :06:04.hopelessness. How hard is it for you to deal with your own husband
:06:04. > :06:08.saying that sort of thing? It is very hard. It is not unexpected.
:06:08. > :06:13.From the day he was taken ill, we knew what the prognosis was and the
:06:13. > :06:17.day would come that this is what he would want. That is the kind of
:06:17. > :06:21.person he is. You sort of get used to it in a way. We have been
:06:21. > :06:29.thinking about Tony's death for the last six years. It does not make it
:06:29. > :06:37.easier but you get used to it. his despair deepened over time? In
:06:37. > :06:41.the very early days, I do not think he was aware of the prognosis.
:06:41. > :06:51.was one of the first things he said to me when he started using his
:06:51. > :06:52.
:06:52. > :06:57.communication board. I do not think it has gotten worse. It was bad
:06:57. > :07:01.from the word go. Tony says he wishes he had not been saved by the
:07:01. > :07:09.doctors those six years ago when he had that terrible stroke. Do you
:07:09. > :07:15.say the same thing? Do you wish the doctors had not saved him? That's
:07:15. > :07:25.tricky. Yes and no. At the time when it happened, my daughters were
:07:25. > :07:31.
:07:31. > :07:34.with me and we all said we do not want to live like this. It is a
:07:34. > :07:39.terrible thing to say but, yes, I wish the doctors hadn't saved him.
:07:39. > :07:44.If we have a good day, maybe not but if it is what he wants it is
:07:44. > :07:47.what I want. We have a little sense of how you and Tony live your daily
:07:47. > :07:50.lives. What are the biggest frustrations for Tony in his daily
:07:50. > :07:54.life? His biggest frustration is not being able to to communicate.
:07:54. > :07:57.He always said if he could speak it would not be so difficult. It is
:07:57. > :08:04.just everything is total frustration for him. For him and
:08:04. > :08:14.also for you. In a different way for me. For him it is day-to-day
:08:14. > :08:18.
:08:18. > :08:23.life, getting up, eating. For me it is frustrating because seeing him
:08:23. > :08:28.like this, what life has become for us... What I am getting at... We
:08:28. > :08:32.will get to the legal issues in a minute. It is strange to talk about
:08:32. > :08:36.Tony when he is right here with us. Tony clearly believes his life has
:08:36. > :08:46.been ruined. The question for you is whether you believe your life
:08:46. > :08:48.
:08:48. > :08:58.has been ruined too? I suppose so, yes. I cannot say no because it has.
:08:58. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:04.We had so many dreams of the things we were going to do. Yeah. (CRIES).
:09:04. > :09:10.This gets more and more difficult. Therefore, it would be better for
:09:10. > :09:15.you if Tony were to die, to use that right to die. I do not want
:09:15. > :09:23.him to die. There is no way that I want him to die. I see what his
:09:23. > :09:30.life is. Maybe I do want him to die, not at the moment but the time will
:09:30. > :09:36.come when he has had enough of life. OK, if it is what he wants then
:09:36. > :09:39.that is fine. Let's talk about the legal issues. Right now, of course,
:09:39. > :09:47.given his disabilities, Tony does not have the option of taking his
:09:47. > :09:52.own life. He cannot do that. If someone was to help him, that would
:09:52. > :10:01.be murder. Is it your and Tony's wish to fundamentally change the
:10:01. > :10:05.law? If I help Tony to die I would be charged with murder. It would be
:10:05. > :10:09.no different if I killed someone in cold blood. We want the law
:10:09. > :10:15.changing. So-called mercy killings should be treated differently. A
:10:15. > :10:21.change in the law on murder - that is what we are after. That is a
:10:21. > :10:25.really profound change, isn't it? You are saying the law would in
:10:25. > :10:29.some way have to create an avenue for somebody to be allowed to take
:10:29. > :10:32.another person's life. Given our tradition of war, our notions about
:10:32. > :10:42.the sanctity of life, it would be extraordinarily difficult and a
:10:42. > :10:42.
:10:42. > :10:46.radical thing to do. How do you think it would be done? I am not
:10:46. > :10:50.sure where we are going for now. It is in the pipeline and we are
:10:50. > :10:54.discussing it with our solicitors. They feel we do have a case. Why
:10:54. > :10:58.should Tony be denied the right to take his own life? It is what he
:10:58. > :11:04.wants and what he is asking for. There should be some system in
:11:04. > :11:12.place. We are not saying it should be legalised point blank, going out
:11:12. > :11:22.and killing someone and say, they told me they wanted to die. There
:11:22. > :11:23.
:11:23. > :11:27.would have to be a stringent procedure in place. You and Tony
:11:27. > :11:34.have talked about this in detail. You would have to. Would you be the
:11:34. > :11:39.one to end his life? I think so, yes. I want to be the one to do it.
:11:39. > :11:44.He does not want me to. He wants to make it legal for other people to
:11:44. > :11:48.do it so I do not have to. He wants me to give him a sedative and then
:11:48. > :11:53.someone else come in and give him the euthanasia so I would not have
:11:53. > :11:59.to do it and he would not have to see me. You would have to have a
:11:59. > :12:02.doctor's agreement to be involved. Doctors have made it plain time and
:12:02. > :12:09.time again they will not countenance being involved in the
:12:09. > :12:15.explicit taking of life in this way. It would not necessarily have to be
:12:15. > :12:23.a doctor. I could do it. I think I could. I have been asked this so
:12:23. > :12:30.many times. I think I could do it. I am sure there are doctors out
:12:30. > :12:33.there that would come forward. argument against it is that it
:12:33. > :12:35.opens up an extraordinarily dangerous precedent, that if it
:12:35. > :12:38.becomes, in certain situations, legal to kill the disabled, the
:12:38. > :12:42.most vulnerable in our society, that very soon some vulnerable
:12:42. > :12:52.people may feel that almost they are obliged to take the option of
:12:52. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :13:02.choosing death. Not if there was some sort of scheme in place. It
:13:02. > :13:07.would obviously have to be very carefully thought out. There would
:13:07. > :13:10.have to be a process you would have to go through to be able to do it.
:13:10. > :13:15.Tony has devised a scheme of his own. Whether it is that was
:13:15. > :13:20.something similar, it would have to be carefully thought. If there can
:13:20. > :13:24.be a way for it to be done, why can anyone else take their life but
:13:24. > :13:31.Tony cannot? He knows what he wants to do but he physically cannot do
:13:31. > :13:36.it. You say he knows what he wants to do. Another argument from those
:13:36. > :13:44.in the religious community and others is that minds can be changed.
:13:44. > :13:47.Tony could change his mind. Have you discounted that? You could say
:13:47. > :13:51.that about straightforward suicide. Suicide is legal for able-bodied
:13:52. > :13:58.people. Their minds could be changed if things were different.
:13:59. > :14:03.Why is ordinary suicide legal? relatives of suicide victims would
:14:03. > :14:07.say, if only I had that opportunity to talk them out of it, to make the
:14:07. > :14:11.case that it was the wrong option to take. If only, I might have
:14:11. > :14:17.saved them. Because Tony cannot do it for himself, society, starting
:14:17. > :14:21.with you, has that option to try and persuade him. He has been like
:14:21. > :14:29.this for six years and he has not changed his mind yet. Who knows, in
:14:29. > :14:35.the future? That is life, isn't it? I know Tony, for example, using his
:14:35. > :14:37.computer, is writing his memoirs. You have described how he is
:14:38. > :14:43.enjoying that process of remembering his past life, writing
:14:43. > :14:48.about it, some of the adventures you two had together. That suggests
:14:48. > :14:52.to me that there is still a way to get some enjoyment out of life and
:14:52. > :14:59.that seems important. It is not enough, though, is it? It is not
:14:59. > :15:05.enough for him. He wants to say something. Can I do it? Yes, of
:15:05. > :15:15.course. Letter 'W', letter 'H'... (CONTINUES SPELLING) What... If...
:15:15. > :15:15.
:15:15. > :15:55.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:15:55. > :15:59.What... I... Feel... Is... Not... The... Same... As... Ordinary? I
:15:59. > :16:03.think I know what you are saying. The reason why Tony wants to commit
:16:03. > :16:08.suicide cannot be solved. This is as good as life is ever going to be
:16:09. > :16:12.for him. An argument made by those who oppose the kind of legal
:16:12. > :16:18.changes you want to see is that palliative care can make your life
:16:18. > :16:28.better. There are ways in which care can improve the quality of
:16:28. > :16:32.
:16:32. > :16:36.your life. Is it too late for that now? We have had specialists here.
:16:36. > :16:40.There is nothing really. Everyone is different. We all have different
:16:40. > :16:43.expectations from life. If you knew Tony before, he is an ex-rugby
:16:43. > :16:47.player, life of the party, adventurer, we travelled around the
:16:47. > :16:53.world, he was good at his job. All the things he loved about life he
:16:53. > :17:02.cannot do. I just wonder how far you are prepared to go, the two of
:17:02. > :17:06.you, when it comes to see him through this wish to die. After we
:17:06. > :17:16.see through the court case, the only option Tony has is to starve
:17:16. > :17:21.
:17:21. > :17:27.You are referring to the fact it is legal to assist suicide in
:17:27. > :17:34.Switzerland. Could Dignitas create a system where it could be an
:17:34. > :17:42.assisted suicide? I have been in touch with them and what they said
:17:42. > :17:46.they could set up a system and he could operate it with a switch.
:17:46. > :17:49.question is, if that is a possibility, of course it would
:17:49. > :17:59.take money, if that is a possibility, why spend so much time
:17:59. > :18:00.
:18:00. > :18:03.and effort going through the British courts? Everything I have
:18:03. > :18:07.seen in the court papers, from traditional verdicts in the past to
:18:07. > :18:11.the words of judges, it suggests it is highly unlikely they will modify
:18:11. > :18:15.the law on murder. Tony does not see why he should go to Switzerland
:18:15. > :18:18.to die. He wants to die at home with his family around him, not in
:18:18. > :18:24.some strange country. The journey itself would be incredibly
:18:24. > :18:27.traumatic for him. Why should he have to? I asked you some very
:18:27. > :18:30.sensitive questions about your feelings about Tony's death and
:18:31. > :18:40.whether, to be brutal about it, if Tony's end would be a release for
:18:41. > :18:43.
:18:43. > :18:52.you. That raises the issue of vested interests from those around
:18:52. > :18:56.somebody who is suffering, as Tony is. Can you see the danger is there
:18:56. > :18:59.that it might come to a point where, if the laws you wanted are passed,
:18:59. > :19:07.family members, others with an interest, they could be persuading
:19:07. > :19:17.vulnerable people to end their lives? I am sure that happens with
:19:17. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:23.ordinary suicide cases. Ordinary suicide is not illegal. I am sure
:19:23. > :19:26.people are coerced into committing suicide. It could happen. What
:19:26. > :19:32.safeguards could you imagine to prevent it? The systems must be
:19:32. > :19:36.added to deal with that. I think that Tony has come up with the idea
:19:36. > :19:39.that the judge would have to be involved at every stage of the
:19:39. > :19:42.process and there would be months and months of a cooling-off period
:19:42. > :19:48.between an initial decision to allow the death and the actual
:19:48. > :19:54.implementation of that decision. Do you really believe that would be
:19:54. > :19:59.enough? I think so, yes. We all know what the pitfalls are and
:19:59. > :20:09.hopefully this system would be able to prevent those. Tony's life is
:20:09. > :20:14.hell, basically. He is being forced to live it. It is like a form of
:20:14. > :20:20.torture, you could say. There has to be a way that something could be
:20:20. > :20:24.sorted out. Each case has to be taken on its on merit. There are
:20:24. > :20:27.indications that the British public has a great deal of sympathy with
:20:27. > :20:31.many of the arguments you are making and, in the past, when there
:20:31. > :20:34.have been deaths which have been associated with this idea of mercy
:20:34. > :20:44.killing, jurors have tended to show sympathy for those behind those
:20:44. > :20:47.
:20:47. > :20:50.killings in their verdicts. Does that make you consider the
:20:51. > :20:58.possibility of ignoring the law, in essence taking the law into your
:20:58. > :21:04.own hands, and relying on the sympathy of a jury? That is a big
:21:04. > :21:09.risk to take. As much as I love him, I am not sure if I am prepared to
:21:09. > :21:15.spend time in prison. He would not let me do it. It would have to be
:21:15. > :21:25.legal. I have got my children to think about. No, I could not do
:21:25. > :21:27.
:21:27. > :21:32.that. Have you talked about it? has always made it very clear from
:21:32. > :21:37.the word go that there is no way he would let me do it because he would
:21:37. > :21:41.not want to risk it. I admire people that can do it. I know there
:21:41. > :21:51.have been some quite high profile cases recently. It takes a lot of
:21:51. > :21:58.guts to be able to do something like that. I personally could not.
:21:58. > :22:01.I wonder how some people would respond to this. You are a full-
:22:01. > :22:11.time carer, it dominates your life, you talk about your daughters, they
:22:11. > :22:16.
:22:16. > :22:22.want to see their father but what do they say to you? They are 100%
:22:22. > :22:26.behind everything that we're doing. When we have talked about just
:22:26. > :22:34.doing it and breaking the law, they were horrified to think that I
:22:34. > :22:39.would even think about doing it. It is hard for them. It is very hard
:22:39. > :22:43.for them. They fully understand what their dad was like. They know
:22:43. > :22:48.what he was like before he was taken ill. He was a total
:22:48. > :22:52.embarrassment! But, they are totally behind us. You have the
:22:52. > :22:56.look of a wife who has lived the life with someone, loved someone,
:22:56. > :23:00.been with them for your adult life - in the course of this interview,
:23:00. > :23:10.I get a strong sense of a bond between you and Tony, yet, all of
:23:10. > :23:17.
:23:17. > :23:27.our conversation's been about how to end his life. For you, you are
:23:27. > :23:28.
:23:28. > :23:34.in an impossible position. I could be totally selfish and want him to
:23:34. > :23:40.carry on living but that would be selfish. I have got to do what he
:23:40. > :23:44.wants to do. I support him and I have to. If I did not support him
:23:44. > :23:47.when he needed me to support him, just the practicalities of that, I
:23:47. > :23:54.do support him and this is very hard but you're constantly talking
:23:54. > :24:01.about how your husband is going to die. We have been living with it
:24:01. > :24:05.for six years. It does become easier. The final thought, you are
:24:05. > :24:08.living in a very personal way with this but you're also dealing with
:24:08. > :24:10.the system, whether it is the legal system, politicians, the health
:24:10. > :24:20.service, doctors, ethicists, frankly, at the moment, nobody
:24:20. > :24:29.
:24:29. > :24:34.wants to offer you what you really want. Everything that has happened
:24:34. > :24:40.with the legal case up until now has not been unexpected. It is what
:24:41. > :24:46.we have been expecting all the time. It is what happens from now that is
:24:46. > :24:51.important. We knew that this would probably be the outcome. They don't
:24:51. > :24:55.feel that we have a case. We knew that was going to happen. It is
:24:55. > :25:00.interesting to see what happens from now on. What that will be, I
:25:00. > :25:07.do not know yet. Have you got the strength to carry on with his
:25:07. > :25:12.caring? Yes, definitely. I think he quite enjoys it in a way, don't
:25:12. > :25:22.you? Jane Nicklinson ,and Tony as well, thank you both for being on
:25:22. > :25:42.
:25:42. > :25:45.It is a very wet and windy day. Today should be a bit better than
:25:45. > :25:50.yesterday. There will still be some showers around and it will be
:25:50. > :25:54.fairly breezy for many. Some blustery winds still blowing. There
:25:54. > :25:59.will be some showers, mainly across western and northern parts of the
:26:00. > :26:03.UK. It is in the north and the west where we will see the showers
:26:03. > :26:07.through the first part of the morning. The south and east could
:26:07. > :26:13.get away with some brightness. Some sunny skies across the south of
:26:13. > :26:16.Wales, but in the north, it will be fairly cloudy. There will be a
:26:16. > :26:20.scattering of showers across Northern Ireland, with little if
:26:20. > :26:24.any brightness. The showers will also be there across northern and
:26:24. > :26:29.western parts of Scotland, but further east, it could be a bit
:26:29. > :26:33.drier. Temperatures in the morning about ten degrees. As we head down
:26:33. > :26:38.across northern England, showers will be gathering across the north-
:26:38. > :26:42.west, one or two mate sneak across the Pennines. There will be some
:26:42. > :26:49.fine weather across the south and east of England, even some pockets
:26:49. > :26:53.of sunshine. The winds still fairly brisk. A similar story as we move
:26:53. > :26:57.down towards the south-west. A largely dry start but fairly breezy.
:26:57. > :27:02.As the day goes on, we will continue to see the showers have
:27:02. > :27:06.been blown in on the wind. They will be concentrated across the
:27:06. > :27:10.northern part of the UK. That is not to say we will not see a few
:27:10. > :27:16.getting across to the more southern and eastern parts. But on the whole,
:27:16. > :27:21.many places here will be drier. Dr M Bridges Of the Day in the south-
:27:22. > :27:28.east, 18-19 -- top temperatures of the day. The show was will continue
:27:28. > :27:32.to gang together into some longer spells of rain. The rain could be
:27:32. > :27:37.fairly relentless for a while across Northern Ireland, north-west
:27:37. > :27:42.England and North Wales. It will be a bit drier to the north of
:27:42. > :27:47.Scotland and the south of England. A mild night when stay in to
:27:47. > :27:51.Thursday, but a little bit cheerier. For Thursday itself, we had the
:27:51. > :27:55.weather front draped across the UK, bringing some further rain across
:27:55. > :27:59.some central and southern parts, especially as the rain its --
:27:59. > :28:04.starts to push northwards. Temperatures rising slightly. By