:00:03. > :00:10.10 years after 9/11, a new power, the Freedom Power has risen from
:00:10. > :00:14.the ashes. Right here, Osama Bin Laden and so did agreed is wind on
:00:14. > :00:18.the United States. Americans have been remembering and reflecting. My
:00:18. > :00:28.guest is the man who was Mayor of New York City on its darkest day,
:00:28. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:48.Rudy Giuliani. How have he and his country been changed by 9/11?
:00:48. > :00:54.The de Chile and the, welcome to HARDtalk. Good to be with you.
:00:54. > :01:01.is an incredible spot. Here we said, right on the edge of Ground Zero.
:01:01. > :01:08.It is 10 years on from 9/11. By wonder what emotion you bring to
:01:08. > :01:14.this anniversary week. It is very hard to look at. I don't even know
:01:14. > :01:18.because I haven't gone through its yet. Every year it is very
:01:18. > :01:25.difficult because it was the worst experience of my life, the worst
:01:25. > :01:32.day of my life, the worst day in the history of my city and the
:01:32. > :01:38.worst attack. It was also a great deal of care was some. -- a great
:01:38. > :01:43.day of heroism. We got a tremendous help. It almost made you cry to
:01:43. > :01:47.think of all the people that came and volunteered and helped and put
:01:47. > :01:55.themselves at great risk. I've probably had some good knowledge of
:01:55. > :01:59.how dangerous this all was Paul stop -- this all was. I was worried
:01:59. > :02:05.that we would lose somebody because they were so over-anxious to do a
:02:05. > :02:13.good job. The conceive what has been achieved already. -- we can
:02:13. > :02:17.see now. I want to stick around the hours of 9/11 itself. You were on
:02:17. > :02:22.the north side, trying to get as close as you could do what had
:02:22. > :02:28.happened. The command centre was over their. How intensely do you
:02:28. > :02:33.recall what happened? What you saw, what you felt at the time. After
:02:33. > :02:39.all, it was 10 years ago. I have spoken about to do a lot. I have
:02:39. > :02:44.written about it. It helps me to talk about it. It helps me to get
:02:44. > :02:48.over the emotion of it and deal with the emotion of it. I have
:02:48. > :02:52.counselled other people to do that, get it out and talk about it. Some
:02:52. > :02:59.of the memories are with you for ever. Some of them stand out as
:02:59. > :03:03.pictures in your mind. The first time I saw somebody jump from the
:03:03. > :03:07.100 for. The first man to throw himself out that I saw, I think
:03:07. > :03:12.there were once before that, that was one of the most shocking
:03:12. > :03:16.experiences of my life, to watch a man at 100 stories flee the fire
:03:16. > :03:20.behind him and throw his body down. I had never seen anything like that
:03:20. > :03:24.before. It convinced me at that time that this was the worst
:03:24. > :03:33.experience they would never have to deal within we had better do as
:03:33. > :03:37.good a job as we can. -- as we would ever. I wonder, as Mayor, if
:03:37. > :03:41.you thought "I am losing control of the city. There are things
:03:41. > :03:49.happening around me that I could never have imagined and I cannot do
:03:49. > :03:58.a job here." That thought was there. Occasionally it would just flash
:03:58. > :04:03.into your head. Can be handled this? His is beyond us? -- can we
:04:03. > :04:10.handle? I thought that but then I thought "I cannot think this week."
:04:10. > :04:14.I did my best to get through it. My father gave me advice. He said "if
:04:14. > :04:19.you are ever in an emergency, remained calm, and if you are not
:04:19. > :04:23.calm, pretend you are calm." afterwards, you have already spoken
:04:23. > :04:32.about stuff that stayed with you, a lot of people have spoken about
:04:32. > :04:36.post-traumatic stress. Have you had dark nights? I have not. I have
:04:36. > :04:45.never dreamed about it. I find it strange that I have never dreamed
:04:45. > :04:49.about it. I think about did a lot. One time I was given medicine that
:04:49. > :04:53.makes you going to a sleepy state and I started talking about it. My
:04:53. > :04:57.wife was with me and the doctor and they were giving out orders to
:04:57. > :05:01.people -- they said I was giving it orders to people to leave the
:05:01. > :05:07.building and get at the building. I don't remember dreaming about it
:05:07. > :05:11.but I do think about it and talk about it a lot. I credit that to me
:05:11. > :05:17.avoiding some of the things that happened. He is there it is
:05:17. > :05:22.difficult. I wonder whether you have some specific regrets. Juba
:05:22. > :05:31.the leader of the city.The city for eight years. There were discussions
:05:31. > :05:36.about things like, for example, did 300 firefighters need to die in the
:05:36. > :05:45.operation that surrounded the Twin Towers? Daegu and others in the
:05:45. > :05:49.operation make some mistakes? did you? I think the 343
:05:49. > :05:56.firefighters was probably less than what would have died if the command
:05:56. > :06:01.hadn't been as effective as it was. If you read the 9/11 report, it
:06:01. > :06:08.says that 96 % of the people that could be saved were saved. What I
:06:08. > :06:14.regret is not anticipating specifically that kind of an attack.
:06:14. > :06:20.Let's talk about the 10 years since. Has New York City killed, do you
:06:20. > :06:26.think? There are still scars year but has the city sealed? The City
:06:26. > :06:30.has done remarkably well. It has done better than I thought it would.
:06:30. > :06:36.I knew they would be stronger as a result of this but they have more
:06:36. > :06:40.than exceeded my expectations. However you judge a city, a city --
:06:40. > :06:45.the city is a stronger and better city now. More to this come here,
:06:45. > :06:51.more people love you, the economy of the city is doing better than
:06:51. > :06:57.the economy of the country. -- more people live here. I think the city
:06:57. > :07:02.has healed to the extent that it can. I guess it has to. Associated
:07:02. > :07:07.Press reported just a couple of days ago that 1,000 new yacht City
:07:07. > :07:13.did -- Police officers day-by-day are assigned to counter terror
:07:13. > :07:17.opposition -- operations. Of course the city the allies sees it is the
:07:17. > :07:25.number one target. That is along with Washington DC. -- realises it
:07:25. > :07:28.is. I think people feel more secure here because they realised the
:07:28. > :07:33.police department is probably the best in the country. The police
:07:33. > :07:40.department which, according to this report, has set up a secret police
:07:40. > :07:44.unit, they call it the Demographic Unit, which uses undercover
:07:44. > :07:49.operations to monitor the likes of New York's Muslim communities,
:07:49. > :07:57.secretly. Is that what you believe should be done in New York City.
:07:57. > :08:03.course. Not the Muslim community got Mark that is what it is about.
:08:03. > :08:07.-- not the Muslim community... That is what it is about. You are
:08:07. > :08:16.monitoring a committee on the basis that that is where the next threat
:08:16. > :08:20.may come from. -- a community. threat is and from people living
:08:20. > :08:25.near Kings County Hospital. The reality is for the police are doing
:08:25. > :08:29.is sensible police work. They are looking at their terrorism has come
:08:29. > :08:34.from and they are focusing on people who are suspected terrorists.
:08:34. > :08:42.It turns out they are Muslim. They are not focusing on Muslims, they
:08:42. > :08:45.are focusing on suspected terrorist. Remember, the first attempt was put
:08:45. > :08:50.together in a mosque in New Jersey. When you know something like that
:08:50. > :08:55.and you know that there are certain Oscars, not all of them, but some
:08:56. > :09:01.of them that they used to plan terror attacks, you would not look
:09:01. > :09:07.in our synagogue on a church, but could be stupid police work. I used
:09:07. > :09:11.the word healing. I wonder if, for example, a city can be truly healed
:09:11. > :09:17.when such a raw and passionate argument was provoked by the plan,
:09:17. > :09:22.for example, from the Muslim community centre which would have
:09:22. > :09:29.been a couple of blocks away pyjamas on benefactors that was all
:09:29. > :09:36.about delivering a message of peace. -- which Amazon benefactor. You
:09:36. > :09:40.called it a desecration. This man wanted to put a mosque here. 90 %
:09:40. > :09:44.of the family members said it was going to cut them and create pain
:09:44. > :09:49.for them and create a tremendous amount of psychological damage to
:09:49. > :09:55.them. They said the Skye Bridge shilling people and he was going to
:09:55. > :09:58.put the mosque down. That is not healing. That is a divided.
:09:58. > :10:03.Thousands of people but killed here under the banner of distorted
:10:03. > :10:09.Islamic religion. It wasn't under the banner of Christianity on
:10:09. > :10:16.Judaism, that was the banner. you call a mosque a desecration,
:10:16. > :10:20.venue say it is right for the police to centre of their anti-
:10:20. > :10:27.terror demonstration on the move on committee, I wonder how many peace-
:10:27. > :10:31.loving Muslim residents off New York City will feel about that.
:10:31. > :10:38.they are peace-loving, they will feel fine. Maybe they will feel
:10:38. > :10:41.victimised. Not if they aren't involved in terrorism. No more than
:10:41. > :10:44.Italian-Americans shouldn't feel victimised when I went after the
:10:45. > :10:49.Mafia because there was a percentage involved in organised
:10:49. > :10:55.crime. The police cannot be irrational or politically correct.
:10:55. > :11:01.It has to be based on logical instincts on people's behaviour.
:11:01. > :11:06.The reality is that Mosques, not all, some, have become the source
:11:06. > :11:10.of terrorist planning. For the police to ignore that in the name
:11:10. > :11:16.of political correctness, because it makes you happy, that would be a
:11:16. > :11:20.dangerous thing to do. I wanted done to the bigger canvas of
:11:20. > :11:25.American national security beyond the city. With the benefit of
:11:25. > :11:30.distance and hindsight that comes with 10 years, do you think that
:11:30. > :11:39.America misjudged its national security response to name 11 mac?
:11:39. > :11:44.No. -- 9/11. I think it was misjudged before 9/11. America
:11:44. > :11:51.discounted the threat to this country. They had attacked the
:11:51. > :11:54.World Trade Center in Africa twice. I think we were minimising the
:11:55. > :11:59.threat against us and sending them signals that we were weak.
:11:59. > :12:06.Therefore, they took advantage of fires on 9/11. The prisoners and
:12:06. > :12:11.the pudding. They took advantage of that, but, in the end, is it not
:12:11. > :12:15.important, first of all to a member of the scale of the horror and the
:12:15. > :12:20.number of victims but also to remember who did it and fight it
:12:20. > :12:25.was done. It was 19 hijackers. The budget was less than $1 million.
:12:25. > :12:30.They were ordered and demanded from skate -- caves in Afghanistan by a
:12:30. > :12:35.small number of fanatics. They succeeded in achieving their
:12:35. > :12:39.objective but was it really war? Was at war that needed a response
:12:39. > :12:46.from the Bush administration that did they not just into Afghanistan
:12:46. > :12:51.but into Iraq as well and cost the nation up to four trillion dollars.
:12:51. > :12:59.And, in 10 years, there has been no attacks like that again. Every
:12:59. > :13:04.single intelligence source warned me that we would be attacked dozens
:13:04. > :13:08.of times again. If that was not for President Bush and his courage to
:13:08. > :13:12.deploy the military in the way he did, I am absolutely convinced that
:13:12. > :13:16.this country would have gone through format, five or six major
:13:16. > :13:21.terrorist attacks and that that was not for Barack Obama continuing and
:13:21. > :13:26.it, the attacks would have increased in the last three years.
:13:26. > :13:30.I can count 42 attempts by extremist Muslim terrorists to
:13:30. > :13:36.conduct terrorist attacks in the United States that have been
:13:36. > :13:41.stopped since 9/11. If we had not heightened our alertness to this,
:13:41. > :13:45.if we had not gone on the offensive, similar attacks would have happened.
:13:45. > :13:50.My question was about the broader response. The Bush administration
:13:50. > :13:54.decided to take up this war, not just specifically against Al-Qaeda,
:13:54. > :13:58.but, of course, it went much further. It went further in
:13:58. > :14:04.Afghanistan, it is still there with the desperate effort to stop the
:14:04. > :14:14.Taliban, but, also, in Iraq. I wonder that it today, 10 years on,
:14:14. > :14:18.
:14:18. > :14:22.you are ready to acknowledge that Why would I do that? What it did
:14:22. > :14:27.was it gave us an enormous amount of intelligence we would not have
:14:27. > :14:31.had, it tied up the people planning to attack and harmless inactivity
:14:31. > :14:37.is there so they could not conduct those activities here. With the
:14:37. > :14:47.loss of hundreds of thousands of civilian lives in those countries.
:14:47. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :14:54.In Iraq Mac and Afghanistan, there are numbers of NGOs that put the
:14:54. > :15:04.number at that. -- in Iraq. If the fact of the matter is that this was
:15:04. > :15:08.an attack outside -- from outside the United States and perpetrated
:15:08. > :15:15.inside United States. When we did not respond, we were continually
:15:15. > :15:20.attacked. When we finally did respond, we kept our homeland safe.
:15:20. > :15:26.That is the responsibility of the United States - to keep the United
:15:26. > :15:32.States safe. If it were not for our military, I do not believe our
:15:32. > :15:41.country would have been safer over the last ten years. Can you truly
:15:41. > :15:46.ever win a military victory over fanatical ideas? Yes. You can? Sure.
:15:46. > :15:54.Didn't we defeat Hitler? That is, I suppose, the point. Can you compare
:15:54. > :15:59.the threat posed by Al-Qaeda and its network of jihadi terrorists
:15:59. > :16:04.with the threat posed by Nazism and Hitler. If you ask the family
:16:04. > :16:09.members of people who died here, they would tell you, from their
:16:09. > :16:17.point of view, their threat was just as bad. Did they have the
:16:17. > :16:21.capacity to invade and capture all of Europe? No. Did they have the
:16:21. > :16:27.capacity to kill or injure hundreds of thousands of people? Yes, and
:16:27. > :16:31.they have demonstrated that. The head of the MI5 in the UK
:16:31. > :16:35.specifically said she believed America had been wrong to turn this
:16:35. > :16:45.into an all out war in the way the Bush administration did. She said,
:16:45. > :16:47.
:16:47. > :16:51.in a way, that served to give credos, status to the jihadis.
:16:51. > :16:54.Thank goodness she was not President of the United States
:16:54. > :16:58.because if she was we probably would have been attacked a dozen
:16:58. > :17:07.times between then and now. The one thing you cannot argue with is that
:17:07. > :17:12.President Bush and President Obama have kept the United States safe.
:17:12. > :17:15.You have written this in the last couple of days. You said that while
:17:15. > :17:18.the lessons learned from 9/11 is that America requires a long-term
:17:18. > :17:22.presence in those parts of the world that continued to endanger
:17:22. > :17:32.rus. Does that mean you believe that talk of a draw down in
:17:32. > :17:35.
:17:35. > :17:45.Afghanistan, for example, the withdrawal of the United States is
:17:45. > :17:46.
:17:46. > :17:55.a bad idea? Not if we keep troops there. Maybe we should not do it in
:17:55. > :17:59.2015. Perhaps we should do what later. This is totally unknown to
:17:59. > :18:06.do these things on irresponsible political timetables. The objective
:18:06. > :18:10.in Afghanistan is to make sure that Afghanistan is left in a situation
:18:10. > :18:14.that is not a danger to us any more. That is the reason we are there -
:18:14. > :18:20.to protect the people of the United States. If we can prove that we
:18:20. > :18:24.have accomplished that goal, we should leave. If we cannot, we
:18:24. > :18:28.should remain. We have to be ready to retain a significant military
:18:28. > :18:38.presence in the Middle East just like we did in Germany, just like
:18:38. > :18:39.
:18:39. > :18:44.we are to win in South Korea. -- doing. When you ran for office,
:18:44. > :18:50.when you wanted to make a bid for the White House in 2007, you found
:18:51. > :18:58.the American republic was not responding to your message, which
:18:58. > :19:05.was primarily a security message. - - the American public. They did not
:19:05. > :19:15.get a chance to respond to my message. I was in an American
:19:15. > :19:16.
:19:16. > :19:22.primary and John McCain one. -- won. John McCain seemed to have the best
:19:22. > :19:32.ideas a national security and he won. I look at the challenges in
:19:32. > :19:36.Afghanistan right now. Given the state of the US economy, the state
:19:36. > :19:40.of finances here, America has to make important decisions which may
:19:40. > :19:48.involve drawing down on its commitments overseas and, to use
:19:48. > :19:53.President Obama's stage, focus on that nation-building here at home.
:19:53. > :20:00.You can never put a limit on how to defend yourself and protect
:20:00. > :20:03.yourself. No matter what the cost? Unless it is irresponsible spending,
:20:03. > :20:08.unless it is fraudulent or irresponsible, which sometimes
:20:08. > :20:12.happens in the area of national defence. We are not in the economic
:20:12. > :20:16.condition we are in because of our defence spending, not even close to
:20:17. > :20:23.that. Our defence spending is roughly the average percentage of
:20:23. > :20:28.our GDP that it has been for the last 40 or 50 years, even less at
:20:28. > :20:32.some points. That is an erroneous analysis of our budgetary situation.
:20:32. > :20:37.We are out of control because we cannot control the cost of
:20:37. > :20:42.healthcare. The reality is we need a presence in the Middle East for a
:20:42. > :20:49.long period of time. The leadership requires explaining that to the
:20:49. > :20:59.American people and developing the patients we had during the Cold War.
:20:59. > :21:00.
:21:00. > :21:09.If that is what leadership requires -- patience. If that is what
:21:09. > :21:15.leadership requires, would you consider running again? You are
:21:15. > :21:19.worried that people are not issuing the message you are, which is the
:21:19. > :21:22.front and centre importance of national security. There are some
:21:22. > :21:27.people on the Republican side who are running who understand that.
:21:27. > :21:31.Some understand that better. My position will be based on whether I
:21:31. > :21:39.think one of those candidates can win and do the right job for the
:21:39. > :21:44.country. If they do not, I will make the decision to run. It may be
:21:44. > :21:48.that you have to convince the Republican party that you will are
:21:48. > :21:53.as socially conservative as they would like. Now you have located
:21:53. > :21:56.the reason why I did not win. The reason I did not win had nothing to
:21:56. > :22:00.do with national security. John McCain had the same views on
:22:00. > :22:10.national security as I do. The reason I did not win was because I
:22:10. > :22:16.
:22:16. > :22:20.am considered too socially moderate. I cannot change. You're telling me
:22:20. > :22:25.that if you run for the White House it will not go anywhere. People
:22:25. > :22:35.have to decide whether these things are or frees not important. My
:22:35. > :22:36.
:22:36. > :22:40.views are my views. -- or are not. I want to return to the meaning of
:22:40. > :22:44.this particular place where we are right now. Everyone in America
:22:44. > :22:50.seems to be talking about extracting the meaning from 9/11.
:22:50. > :23:00.Some argue that actually, although which felt... I was in North
:23:00. > :23:01.
:23:01. > :23:04.America at the time. Although it felt that the world changed
:23:04. > :23:11.completely on that terrible day, maybe it did not change as much as
:23:11. > :23:15.we thought. I do you think it changed at all. I think 11th
:23:15. > :23:21.September allowed us to perceive more clearly the realities that
:23:21. > :23:24.have been going on in the world since the 1960s. This was not the
:23:24. > :23:34.first terrorist attack. It was not the first terrorist attack on
:23:34. > :23:36.
:23:36. > :23:40.America. What this did was not change anything going on in the
:23:40. > :23:47.world, it changed our appreciation of the world. I think someone
:23:47. > :23:54.attributed to Bin Laden, I think I am right about this, maybe one of
:23:54. > :23:56.the terrorist leaders, that this attack turned out to be a mistake
:23:56. > :24:02.because it awakened a sleeping giant. I think it was a terrible
:24:02. > :24:06.mistake for them because, even if it takes 20 or 30 years, Islamic
:24:06. > :24:13.extremist terrorism will eventually be destroyed. Rudolph Giuliani, we
:24:13. > :24:23.have to leave it there but thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
:24:23. > :24:31.
:24:31. > :24:36.To bring the week to a close, we have a warmer day, feeling quite
:24:36. > :24:43.muggy and humid too. That moist air means we start off with quite a bit
:24:43. > :24:46.of cloud. As the sun comes out, the air tract across means temperatures
:24:46. > :24:56.will shoot up higher than recent days. We start of milder, wet
:24:56. > :25:00.
:25:00. > :25:05.across the UK. Temperatures already in the mid-teens. For more than
:25:05. > :25:09.England, some heavy rain around, particularly to the east of the
:25:09. > :25:13.Pennines. For the South, a lot of cloud. Some brighter spells but not
:25:13. > :25:18.that much widespread sunshine initially. As we head towards the
:25:18. > :25:23.south coast, a lot of low cloud getting fed in off the Channel. We
:25:23. > :25:27.have a great prospect here. More to the south-west - a lot of low cloud,
:25:27. > :25:32.hill fog and a similar story for Wales. Your best chance for early
:25:32. > :25:40.morning brightness is to move up the Welsh mountains. Northern
:25:40. > :25:45.Ireland off to a dry footing. The overnight rain will clear. Looking
:25:45. > :25:49.at the bigger picture, you will see that rain does linger for Scotland
:25:49. > :25:52.but gradually eases across northern England. It is a much brighter
:25:52. > :25:57.prospect to the east of the Pennines through the afternoon.
:25:57. > :26:03.Elsewhere, a relatively dry story but struggling to see decent spells
:26:03. > :26:10.of sunshine in the West. The East has promising temperatures later in
:26:10. > :26:13.the day. Quite possibly 23 or 24 across eastern England. Low 20s
:26:13. > :26:17.towards the West and a shade cooler to the west of Scotland. All that
:26:17. > :26:22.warm air is coming of his pocket associated with this area of low
:26:22. > :26:25.pressure coming from the West. Tightly-packed isobars means strong
:26:25. > :26:33.winds and this cold weather Fund will bring another set of changes
:26:33. > :26:42.for the weekend. Outbreaks of rain on Saturday. They will work
:26:42. > :26:46.eastwards on Sunday. Still Printy - makes a pretty warm on Saturday --
:26:46. > :26:50.still pretty warm on Saturday evening. Outbreaks of rain getting