:00:23. > :00:29.They are calling it Palestine 194 day. A vote on Palestine becoming
:00:29. > :00:34.the next state in the UN. Could it advance the cause of peace
:00:34. > :00:39.negotiation or would it cemented divisions between Israel and the
:00:39. > :00:49.Palestinians, setting back the prospect of a peace settlement?
:00:49. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:21.Joining me, Dore Gold and Nabil Nabil Schaaf, former Deputy Prime
:01:21. > :01:26.Minister and Dore Gold, former Israeli UN ambassador. Thank Maxis
:01:26. > :01:32.for coming on HARDtalk. Nabil Schaaf, if I can begin with you.
:01:32. > :01:38.What are you going to be doing at the United Nations? We are going to
:01:38. > :01:44.be asking for membership. The state of Palestine was declared in 1988.
:01:44. > :01:51.It has gathered momentum and today, 126 countries recognise it. What
:01:51. > :01:55.are you asking? According to UN rules, for membership can only be
:01:55. > :02:00.granted by the Security Council but that is where there is a
:02:00. > :02:05.possibility of somebody using the veto. America. You will go to the
:02:05. > :02:08.second best option, the General Assembly? We will do what we can,
:02:08. > :02:15.knocking at the door of the Security Council that they can also
:02:15. > :02:18.give us less than full membership, they can give us support and a
:02:18. > :02:25.recommendation to the Security Council. We will approach both in
:02:26. > :02:31.the right time. Just to nail this down. When you say recognition, the
:02:31. > :02:36.Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, said in July that he will be
:02:36. > :02:45.seeking for membership and recognition of Palestine on the
:02:45. > :02:50.1967 borders. Correct. So you're going to pre-empt negotiations? The
:02:50. > :02:54.UN is going to divide Palestine with defined borders. There is a
:02:54. > :02:58.separation between declaring a state and the final border with
:02:58. > :03:04.neighbours. The border with our neighbours, even though there is a
:03:04. > :03:08.lot of legitimate reasons be chosen 1967, it will still have to be
:03:08. > :03:14.negotiated with Israel in accordance with Resolution 242.
:03:14. > :03:24.it is entirely symbolic? You're asking for wrested -- recognition
:03:24. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:29.but it has no force. It has won. -- one. We are asking the world to
:03:29. > :03:36.consider that we are restate whose land has occupied. There is a
:03:37. > :03:40.consideration between land disputed or land occupied. As it is occupied,
:03:40. > :03:48.any to equal partners Ken eventually agree on the final
:03:48. > :03:52.demarcation. Dore Gold, you speak confidently about getting more than
:03:52. > :03:59.a two-thirds majority there. His Israel going to sit on the
:03:59. > :04:04.sidelines? Israel has said it does not recognise this as a legitimate
:04:04. > :04:09.act. We have a set of agreements with the Palestinians going to 1993.
:04:09. > :04:13.There is an important clause, a core commitment. Both sides
:04:14. > :04:18.recognise the Oslo agreement is still in force. The cause says
:04:18. > :04:22.neither side will change the status of the West Bank or the Gaza Strip
:04:22. > :04:26.brighter the completion of negotiations. What have you been
:04:26. > :04:31.doing with the West Bank and east Jerusalem? A good counter. But let
:04:31. > :04:34.me explain. Settlements do not change the status. If we have a
:04:34. > :04:39.disagreement over whether future borders side, we can move
:04:40. > :04:44.settlements. We already pulled 9,000 people out of their homes.
:04:44. > :04:52.Settlements are not an issue. are a huge issue. If you are
:04:52. > :04:59.talking in a narrow legal way, in terms of politics, the real world,
:04:59. > :05:07.tripling the number of settlers and the rest Bank -- in that the West
:05:07. > :05:17.Bank, that has a tremendous effect. I have a treat - Mexico to share
:05:17. > :05:22.
:05:22. > :05:30.with you. When you Rabin negotiated, he did not agree to the freeze. The
:05:30. > :05:34.PLO signed it. We have negotiated with Palestinians well we built in
:05:34. > :05:38.their areas and they need associated with us. It is not a
:05:38. > :05:42.huge issue. It is a huIt is a huor the rest of the world. I do not
:05:42. > :05:47.want to get sidetracked. The reason I raised it is because it is all
:05:47. > :05:53.very well to save the Palestinians are in abrogation of the Oslo
:05:53. > :06:01.accords but let's just talk about the real world. Find me the claws
:06:02. > :06:10.an an agreement. -- the clause in the Oslo agreement.
:06:10. > :06:15.Because of some people insisting, negotiating about freezing
:06:15. > :06:22.settlements, nonetheless, because of this issue, doubt is cast. Come
:06:22. > :06:27.back to negotiations. Sit down with us. Talk to us. I want to explore
:06:27. > :06:35.negotiations but can I ask, in practical terms, what do you think,
:06:35. > :06:45.if this boat goes ahead, what effect will it have? -- vote.
:06:45. > :06:46.
:06:46. > :06:53.Symbolic or we'll affects? For -- real effects? More countries will
:06:53. > :06:56.recognise this bilaterally. Your Foreign Minister was quoted as
:06:56. > :07:04.saying, this does not make any difference on the ground. It is
:07:04. > :07:12.symbolic. Is that what it is? determination is not symbolic. --
:07:12. > :07:17.self. It creates binding commitments between us and all of
:07:17. > :07:25.the countries that recognise us. will change the lives of
:07:25. > :07:29.Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip how? The major thing
:07:29. > :07:33.that makes it impossible is the Israeli occupation and Israeli
:07:33. > :07:40.settlement and is rarely wars and Israeli checkpoints. These are the
:07:40. > :07:47.problems. As we have upgraded our representation. The world looking
:07:47. > :07:53.at us as a state, we received a lot of support. A lot of support to
:07:53. > :07:58.give us the ability to hire employees. It is happening whether
:07:58. > :08:03.you're a member of the UN or not. It has increased significantly as
:08:03. > :08:08.our status has risen. To be members of all the UN organisations, our
:08:08. > :08:12.ability, it gives us rights to utilise international law to
:08:12. > :08:16.support and protect our people and to make it harder for Israel to
:08:16. > :08:22.consider rise just the people under occupation of a disputed territory.
:08:22. > :08:32.Is that not a reasonable point? The Israeli occupation, which a number
:08:32. > :08:34.
:08:34. > :08:40.of countries to see as a -- illegal, the separation barrier, decreed
:08:40. > :08:46.illegal. All that will become much more difficult for Israel if
:08:46. > :08:51.Palestine is seen as a sovereign state. The leadership has put in
:08:51. > :08:57.the European Union in a difficult position. They are divided as to
:08:57. > :09:04.how to respond. I'm not asking about the European Union. This is a
:09:04. > :09:11.much more complex situation than people think. The commitment not to
:09:11. > :09:15.change the status of the territories was signed by the
:09:15. > :09:22.European Union. Britain supports the Palestinians. It is working
:09:23. > :09:32.against an agreement it signed. Palestinians are saying they want
:09:33. > :09:36.
:09:36. > :09:41.to see restart negotiations. Israel has put in a precondition. It is
:09:41. > :09:49.totally untrue. This is not a precondition. Israel says, you come
:09:49. > :09:55.to last. Recognise the rights of the Palestinian people. Two years
:09:55. > :09:58.ago, the Prime Minister of Israel said, I recognise the rights of
:09:58. > :10:04.Palestinian people and a Palestinian state. You should
:10:04. > :10:09.recognise the rights of the Jewish people for a nation state for the
:10:09. > :10:19.Jewish people and for some reason, the Palestinians cannot say that.
:10:19. > :10:19.
:10:19. > :10:24.Because that abrogate the right of return. -- abrogates. Please, let
:10:24. > :10:30.me finish. The returning of Palestinian refugees to their
:10:30. > :10:34.homeland. You are prejudging the negotiations just as much as he,
:10:34. > :10:41.saying it is fine but the when recognize Palestine on the 1967
:10:41. > :10:44.borders is prejudging that part of the negotiations. You are asking me
:10:44. > :10:52.as an Israeli to recognise the rights of the Palestinian people to
:10:52. > :11:00.a state but you refuse to let me put the rights of the Jewish people
:11:00. > :11:03.to a state. That is unfair. Do you agree that the Palestinians have a
:11:03. > :11:12.problem that there are several million Jews living in a place that
:11:12. > :11:19.they consider to be theirs? We have two problems. Settlements. We never
:11:19. > :11:25.accepted settlements. It is a demographic change. What about his
:11:25. > :11:32.role within the 1967 borders? -- Israel. The terms we had to accept
:11:32. > :11:39.it to move on in terms of the Oslo agreement was no unilateral acts
:11:39. > :11:45.that would change things on the ground. Changing the status of the
:11:45. > :11:48.West Bank. The specific point about recognising the Jews have a right
:11:48. > :11:55.to self-determination. It is not a question of the Jews have been that
:11:55. > :11:59.right. It is that question of all Israelis having that right. 22 % of
:11:59. > :12:03.Israel is made of Palestinians, Christians and Muslims to worry
:12:03. > :12:12.Israeli citizens. They are not choose but they are part of Israeli
:12:12. > :12:18.society. -- Jews. Are you suggesting their future would be
:12:18. > :12:24.jeopardised? It is like a black man in the United States when somebody
:12:24. > :12:32.insists you recognise the US as a Wasp country, for white Anglo-Saxon
:12:32. > :12:42.Protestants. We recognised Israel in 1993 as a sovereign state. We
:12:42. > :12:44.
:12:44. > :12:52.still commit ourselves to recognise in it. -- recognising. We can never
:12:52. > :12:56.ask Israel to recognise us as an Arab or Muslim state. Let me be
:12:56. > :13:04.specific. What to do you think is going to happen on the day after
:13:04. > :13:10.this vote? How will things change? We are not raising the expectations
:13:10. > :13:16.of our people. Israel will not to leave a country the day after.
:13:16. > :13:22.are you planning mass demonstrations? Will there be an
:13:22. > :13:26.Arab Spring? Not on that day. That action is an international non-
:13:26. > :13:32.violent action and will be supported with glee and happiness.
:13:32. > :13:41.It will not be supported with glee and happiness by one of your major
:13:41. > :13:48.funders. America has made it clear. It is not part of the Palestinian
:13:48. > :13:55.people. You have a responsibility. You have been written to by senior
:13:55. > :14:00.members of Congress warning, both houses of which have voted heavily
:14:00. > :14:05.against you, they will cut funding. I would be very happy if they did
:14:05. > :14:08.the same to Israel. We will cut off funding if you continue settlements.
:14:08. > :14:12.The Americans cannot be that selective and I'm not going to
:14:12. > :14:19.listen to them if they do. See you think it is an empty threat? It is
:14:19. > :14:25.not the issue. It is the issue. Abandoning them negotiations?
:14:25. > :14:29.submit to date of the American pressure on this issue, but I will
:14:29. > :14:37.have to give up everything else. Everything else I want to do and it
:14:37. > :14:47.is part of my right. We do not want to battle with them. What are you
:14:47. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:57.As in material breach of the agreement, if they go against the
:14:57. > :15:02.core commitment of their agreement it is completely open question as
:15:02. > :15:07.to how we respond. That is what I am asking you - how will you
:15:07. > :15:13.respond? That is a stress in addition to this. How are you going
:15:13. > :15:18.to respond? We will have to see. We have to make plans. Your Foreign
:15:18. > :15:22.Minister has said... Is that going to happen? I don't know. We have to
:15:23. > :15:28.see what the actual actions... is not that long that you have to
:15:28. > :15:32.wait. Do you think that is a sensible move? I think that if the
:15:32. > :15:35.agreement is an violated so fundamentally and the international
:15:35. > :15:43.agreement that was signed by the European Union, the Russians, the
:15:43. > :15:47.Norwegians, the Egyptians... It I am asking what you will do. I think
:15:47. > :15:50.we should study the response. I would give you a specific... Do you
:15:50. > :15:55.think, specifically, that you should think about annexing part of
:15:55. > :16:01.the West Bank? I am not sure. I am telling you what we think. We have
:16:01. > :16:10.a very serious problem that is emerging. Why are the Palestinians
:16:10. > :16:15.doing this? Mahmoud Abbas explained the motivation. He says he wants to
:16:15. > :16:18.waged, let's call it a legal war, a legal struggle against the Israeli
:16:18. > :16:22.international... This move on the part of Mahmoud Abbas is not to
:16:22. > :16:27.level the playing field, make it easier for the Palestinians to
:16:27. > :16:34.negotiate with Israel, to the contrary. It is to open a whole new
:16:34. > :16:38.door of going to the National Criminal Court, the ICC... While
:16:38. > :16:43.you're afraid of international law? We are not afraid of international
:16:43. > :16:46.law. You can load up the entire international legal system with
:16:46. > :16:51.complaints that have been thrown out because they are baseless as I
:16:52. > :16:56.saw that in Gaza personally. This is not the way to make peace. We
:16:56. > :17:04.need to sit down - sit down with us. You have sat down with every Prime
:17:04. > :17:08.Minister. Sit down with us. Sit down with us! Don't go to the UN!
:17:09. > :17:12.You are tying up a whole international... It is useless...
:17:12. > :17:16.It can only create complications. How much support is there within
:17:16. > :17:24.the Palestinian leadership for this? I haven't heard a single
:17:24. > :17:32.comment in favour of this from your Prime Minister. Come on now... Of
:17:32. > :17:36.course he is in favour of this... He made a statement that he
:17:36. > :17:41.retracted several times... He said what we need in the final analysis
:17:41. > :17:47.is not only the retribution of 190 countries, we need the recognition
:17:47. > :17:50.of one country that occupies our claim -- recognition. What he is
:17:50. > :17:57.about is about building a Palestinian state on the ground.
:17:57. > :18:05.Looks, he is not in charge of our political... He is a respected
:18:05. > :18:08.Prime Minister whose role is to run the security and Economic Affairs
:18:08. > :18:12.Committee is not a political decision maker. But he thinks this
:18:12. > :18:17.is a bad idea. I don't think Mahmoud Abbas wanted to do this.
:18:17. > :18:20.didn't. People have to negotiate and talk, even within people's own
:18:20. > :18:27.families have to talk about future plans. I think he is fully
:18:27. > :18:32.convinced... Yd than he has changed his mind? Because he saw the
:18:32. > :18:38.reasons. He saw the advantages. He saw the limited costs that it would
:18:38. > :18:42.take. Let me tell you - Israel has accepted the fact that there is an
:18:42. > :18:46.independent Palestinian state in all of our agreements. When we
:18:46. > :18:49.signed with Israel they were 88 countries that would have all
:18:49. > :18:57.embassies for arse. Let's talk about the P and Orrell. There are
:18:57. > :19:01.lots of people - your friends - who say that making his move to the
:19:01. > :19:11.United Nations were made to staff up the chances of the Palestinian
:19:11. > :19:17.
:19:17. > :19:27.refugees who the key and AU are supposed to represent. --PLO. Up be
:19:27. > :19:27.
:19:27. > :19:34.his appeal over that... That state is the ownership of all the
:19:34. > :19:37.Palestinians. Dore Gold, can I ask more broadly - do you not feel that
:19:37. > :19:42.you are a... When you think this is the right move or not, you are on
:19:42. > :19:45.the wrong side of the debate? point is, the vast majority of the
:19:45. > :19:50.world believes it is time for a viable Palestinian state, Israel is
:19:50. > :19:53.standing in the way. The Prime Minister of Israel said he is ready
:19:53. > :20:00.for a Palestinian state. Define Palestinian state - it is bomber
:20:00. > :20:07.that controlled borders, without control of the electromagnetic...
:20:07. > :20:10.It is the Israeli view which I am here for, bear with me. This
:20:11. > :20:16.affects how Israelis look at the future of the West Bank. We
:20:16. > :20:20.withdrew. It was unilateral, but it was, ordinated with Mahmoud Abbas.
:20:20. > :20:24.He said there would be no rocket fire while we withdrew. Would we
:20:24. > :20:29.expect that if you withdraw from territory that the Palestinians say
:20:29. > :20:35.it is part of the estate that rocket fire should drop? Increased
:20:35. > :20:39.from 2005 up to almost 900. Without getting into that - and I know it
:20:39. > :20:43.is important as far as Israel is concerned, but how do you define a
:20:43. > :20:48.Palestinian state? If we withdrew from the Gaza Strip and we got a
:20:48. > :20:52.500 % increase in rocket fire on Israeli cities - and every one has
:20:52. > :20:55.seen this, BBC, CNN, you have seen it. How can we be certain that this
:20:56. > :20:59.will not happen in the West Bank? That is why we need a negotiation
:20:59. > :21:05.with the Palestinians directly to talk about security issues. If they
:21:05. > :21:09.say - to a bad, we are deciding with the UN that the lines will be
:21:10. > :21:14.the 67 lines at all the leaders have said are indefensible - what
:21:14. > :21:18.is there left to talk about? Can I ask both of you - we are hearing
:21:18. > :21:25.from both of you, passionately and in some detail, many of the
:21:25. > :21:30.arguments that we have heard over the past decades, to be frank.
:21:30. > :21:35.There is this thing called the Arab Spring. Are you not afraid, Nabil
:21:35. > :21:39.Sha'ath, that one of the currents we have seen from the Arab Spring
:21:39. > :21:44.is that the tired old leaderships had ended up being swept away by
:21:44. > :21:49.public disaffection. Are you not afraid that the Palestinians might
:21:49. > :21:53.do that to you? It would be a pleasure, believe me. The question
:21:53. > :21:58.of democracy is a question that is important to the Palestinians more
:21:58. > :22:06.than anybody else. The Arab Spring is a validation - a vindication
:22:06. > :22:11.that the Palestinians' quest for self-determination and democracy...
:22:11. > :22:15.The peace process so far has not really ended occupation. There have
:22:15. > :22:20.been 20 years after we signed Oslo. We are still under occupation.
:22:20. > :22:24.Every inch of Palestine. Are you going back to negotiations? We are
:22:24. > :22:29.going back to negotiations. There are limited chances it could
:22:29. > :22:37.succeed. While we discuss peace, land is being taken from us. We
:22:37. > :22:41.cannot really, any more, but might this refers to a time when there
:22:41. > :22:47.was hope. When we felt we might, in fact, finish everything. Now after
:22:47. > :22:52.20 years we are still fully occupied. Dore Gold - is there not
:22:52. > :22:57.a chance, I know there is a lot of uncertainty in Israel about what is
:22:57. > :23:03.happening regionally, that just by hungering down you could actually
:23:03. > :23:07.make up the worst of all worlds. It is up to you now to make the
:23:07. > :23:10.weather rather than simply folding your arms. The ultimate
:23:10. > :23:14.responsibility for any serious democratic government in the West -
:23:14. > :23:19.anywhere in the world, is to protect the lives of its civilians.
:23:19. > :23:23.What is happening with the Arab Spring for arse is a positive. I
:23:23. > :23:33.would like to see the Arab world democratic so that Arab leaders --
:23:33. > :23:36.
:23:36. > :23:40.for us. Tomic... Those new Arab leaders sound all the more
:23:40. > :23:44.concerned with what is happening in Israel. I think they are focused
:23:44. > :23:49.inwardly. We're getting instability. Do we know who will lead Syria? Do
:23:49. > :23:52.we know who will lead Saudi Arabia in two years? Do we know what will
:23:52. > :23:57.happen to Iraq after the Americans and British have completed their
:23:57. > :24:05.withdrawal? Will become a new Arab democracy with accountable
:24:05. > :24:10.government or will it become simply a satellite of Iran. Certain
:24:10. > :24:14.security elements are important to keep the Jewish people alive. We
:24:14. > :24:19.need to sit with the Palestinians. We will put the security issue
:24:19. > :24:25.first. It is difficult, but... will have to leave it there.
:24:25. > :24:35.Painted the coming on to HARDtalk Dore Gold and Nabil Sha'ath. --
:24:35. > :24:44.
:24:44. > :24:47.thank you. Good morning - if you have been
:24:47. > :24:51.watching the weather forecast you will know we are heading for a
:24:52. > :24:54.spell of stormy weather across the northern half of the UK. We have an
:24:54. > :24:59.amber alert for the strength of the wind affecting southern Scotland
:24:59. > :25:03.and northern England. Some detail - you can see this cloud moving in
:25:03. > :25:06.from the Atlantic all associated with an area of low pressure that
:25:06. > :25:10.is pushing in across from the west. We will see some extensive rain
:25:10. > :25:20.through Northern Ireland and into northern Scotland. First thing in
:25:20. > :25:24.the morning it will be a grey and windy start. Not the strongest of
:25:24. > :25:29.the winds by 8am but a fairly miserable journey to work or school
:25:29. > :25:32.across Scotland and north-west England. To the east of the
:25:32. > :25:35.Pennines it all stay rather cloudy but not a bad start. Some patchy
:25:35. > :25:40.bits and pieces through Lincolnshire, East Anglia and
:25:40. > :25:44.London. Breezy, but temperatures of around 17 degrees by 8am. Some
:25:44. > :25:47.cloud generally through the south coast and down into the south-west.
:25:47. > :25:51.Strong wind is a feature particularly on the exposed coast
:25:51. > :25:55.of Wales and further inland there will be some showers to come. We
:25:55. > :25:59.come over to Northern Ireland and we will see a spell of wet weather
:25:59. > :26:06.continuing. That will be a bit of a nuisance. There is that area of low
:26:06. > :26:09.pressure. That is where the strongest of winds will develop. In
:26:09. > :26:12.Northern Ireland, southern Scotland and northern England. For the rest
:26:13. > :26:17.of England and Wales not too bad with some sunny spells coming
:26:17. > :26:20.through. Temperatures at 21-22. 16 degrees in the cloudy wet weather.
:26:20. > :26:22.The strongest of the wind from lunchtime onwards through the
:26:22. > :26:27.afternoon across Northern Ireland, southern Scotland and northern
:26:27. > :26:33.England. There will be some localised gusts of wind here
:26:33. > :26:43.causing some damage. Strong Glyn is likely to cause trouble disruptions,
:26:43. > :26:45.
:26:45. > :26:49.stay tuned to the BBC Radio station. We keep the wind across Scotland
:26:49. > :26:59.throughout Tuesday. Elsewhere it is a case a bright and breezy with
:26:59. > :27:00.
:27:00. > :27:04.plenty of showers. A similar feel - 15-20 degrees, not as warm in the
:27:04. > :27:07.south corner. Good news to cling on to - by Wednesday we'll lose the
:27:07. > :27:10.rain in the north. High pressure takes over and weather conditions