:00:04. > :00:14.new measures will be implemented by 2019. That is it for me. Now it is
:00:14. > :00:17.
:00:17. > :00:21.time for HARDtalk. My guess today is one of the best-known and most
:00:21. > :00:25.successful retailers in Britain. Until this year, he was chairman
:00:25. > :00:29.and before that chief-executive of Marks & Spencer, the shops that
:00:29. > :00:33.sell small clothes than any other in the UK. Recent figures suggest a
:00:33. > :00:39.high street is struggling with sales down, shops closing and
:00:39. > :00:49.confidence low. What are the chances of Britain and the world
:00:49. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:13.avoiding putting back into Sir Stuart Rose, welcome to
:01:13. > :01:18.HARDtalk. There are parts of the United Kingdom where one in three
:01:18. > :01:24.shops have closed. The High Street does seem to be a pretty brutal
:01:24. > :01:30.place at the moment, doesn't it? is hard going, no doubt. My old
:01:30. > :01:37.adverse surreal thriller Green told me that things had got very bad. --
:01:37. > :01:42.my old adversary, Sir Philip Green. If you go for what I have done all
:01:42. > :01:47.my life, self-help, and due order retailer with things that people
:01:47. > :01:50.want to buy and you offer quality and value and service and
:01:50. > :01:56.innovation, you can survive and probably thrive. If you have got
:01:56. > :02:00.none of those things, you will have a tough time. To look at the big
:02:00. > :02:04.picture, even if you make the point that some shops can do all right,
:02:04. > :02:11.do you think the United Kingdom is heading for a double dip recession?
:02:11. > :02:15.No. I have just got back from a cup of coffee with Digby Jones and we
:02:15. > :02:20.both agreed that that was not the case. Many people have an
:02:20. > :02:26.optimistic view. I think we will continue to make slow but steady
:02:26. > :02:31.progress through the rest of 2011 and into 2012 and 2013. I am not a
:02:31. > :02:38.double dip recession man and I have got a track record of saying that.
:02:38. > :02:43.The head of Deutsche Bank has said that there has been sealed percent
:02:43. > :02:49.growth this year, shops or under pressure, many people think there
:02:49. > :02:54.is no hope and that things could get worse. I think they're wrong.
:02:54. > :03:01.But, the answer is, we don't really know. Let's look at one of the big
:03:01. > :03:07.drivers of recession. This recession is quite interesting. The
:03:07. > :03:12.trading path of the UK plc is not in bad neck, the balance sheet is
:03:12. > :03:16.in a real mess and then you can get the balance sheet sorted out...
:03:16. > :03:21.There is another factor, companies are doing better in the UK for stop
:03:21. > :03:26.my own company, its balance sheet is doing well. Margins of companies
:03:26. > :03:30.are in good shape. We need something to happen. A lot of this
:03:30. > :03:34.will be driven and should be driven by public confidence. I think the
:03:34. > :03:38.biggest single factor holding back the UK and much of the world is the
:03:38. > :03:43.fear factor and public confidence. That is being hit because people do
:03:43. > :03:47.not have money. They do have money. Look at the plus side, you are
:03:47. > :03:54.talking to an optimist, interest rates are low and people are being
:03:54. > :03:59.squeezed. People are being careful and thoughtful style. -- thoughtful.
:03:59. > :04:04.I was talking to a manufacturer the other day and they were saying that
:04:04. > :04:07.volume has gone down. Turn a negative into a positive and it is
:04:08. > :04:13.different, I accept. A full game goes down, it does not mean people
:04:13. > :04:20.are eating less, it means they are wasting less. -- If of volume was
:04:20. > :04:25.down. A large amount of stuff is thrown away. That has been cut down.
:04:25. > :04:30.We you're an optimist. A lot of people would say that unemployment
:04:30. > :04:35.has gone up. Those are people who will not have money. It has
:04:35. > :04:39.consistently gone up. It has not gone up to the same degree that
:04:40. > :04:45.forecasters predicted. People are taking home next money -- less
:04:45. > :04:49.money. People don't want to take less money for the same job. They
:04:49. > :04:54.have had to and that is why the numbers aren't as bad. People have
:04:54. > :04:58.less money. People are being flexible about how they are dealing
:04:58. > :05:04.with this recession. They're taking part-time jobs and being flexible
:05:04. > :05:07.about their hours. You ask if it is going to be a double dip recession.
:05:08. > :05:12.That is two quarters of negative growth. I don't think that will be
:05:12. > :05:17.the case. I think we will continue to grow. George Osborne will have
:05:17. > :05:23.to reduce his forecast. Before we look at what George Osborne does,
:05:23. > :05:28.one wonders where this growth is coming from. George Osborne is
:05:28. > :05:31.relying on the private sector here. We have seen exports affected
:05:31. > :05:35.because the rest of the world are struggling. The eurozone is having
:05:35. > :05:41.a terrible time, America is struggling, where is the growth
:05:41. > :05:47.coming from? We will have to fall back on traditional strengths. We
:05:47. > :05:52.have to keep supporting. The pound is pretty low and our goods are
:05:52. > :06:02.quite affordable overseas. I don't know the answer, in truth. I am
:06:02. > :06:07.more optimistic than you are. the UK, a financial body has said
:06:07. > :06:13.it expects 0.3 % growth in the last quarter of the year was a good
:06:13. > :06:18.contract by as much as 1%. It could. You say that the Chancellor has
:06:18. > :06:24.said that growth will not be as he had hoped. He went on to say that
:06:24. > :06:29.he will stick to his plans for dealing with the deficit. Which is,
:06:30. > :06:37.the word always used in the UK, austerity. Is she right to do so?
:06:37. > :06:41.think so. I am right -- consistent about this. As a retailer, for me
:06:41. > :06:46.to support the increase in VAT, that was a brave thing to do. I
:06:46. > :06:50.think we're doing the right thing. I think it will be proved to be
:06:50. > :06:54.right. Let's take the political side, if you're going to deliver
:06:54. > :07:00.bad news, you might as well do it early on. It is like going to a
:07:00. > :07:04.doctor. Would rather get the truth then the bad -- the truth and the
:07:04. > :07:09.bad news or would you rather people do everything was fine and then
:07:09. > :07:14.produce afterwards it was not. I am not a member of the Conservative
:07:14. > :07:19.Party. Many people will change their position. They will say that
:07:19. > :07:24.it is a Yallourn and growth has not materialised. Alistair Darling has
:07:24. > :07:30.said it will strangle the economy. -- it is one year on. He would say
:07:30. > :07:35.that, wouldn't he? The economy is still growing. It may be growing in
:07:35. > :07:40.a sluggish way but it has not gone negative. It is still growing.
:07:40. > :07:44.America, countries and the eurozone, they are ending up going to be
:07:44. > :07:49.finding themselves in the same position as the UK, forced to take
:07:49. > :07:54.austerity measures. The good news for the UK is that we are separate
:07:54. > :07:58.from Europe. We are dependent for exports and some imports, we are
:07:58. > :08:04.important Lelant, but what the Government has done will serve the
:08:04. > :08:09.UK in good stead. -- importantly linked. The issue about Europe is
:08:09. > :08:13.quite simple. If you talk to a German businessman, they will tell
:08:13. > :08:17.you privately, they have done pretty well on the last few years
:08:17. > :08:23.about the fact the euro has been lost. The German economy is doing
:08:23. > :08:27.well. The issue for Angela Merkel is domestic politics. Are they
:08:27. > :08:34.going to be like the rest of Europe, and tell the rest of Europe they
:08:34. > :08:39.will do that, much as they did for East Germany, or will they just
:08:39. > :08:44.continue as they are? Germany has done very well. All the forecasts
:08:44. > :08:50.are, poured from your own, it is not going to. Germany could be most
:08:50. > :08:56.affected. -- apart from your own. You mentioned America. People talk
:08:56. > :08:59.to me about America. Never underestimate two things. Never
:08:59. > :09:05.underestimate deep ingenuity of former Sapience, almost Fabians got
:09:05. > :09:12.us into this speech. -- the ingenuity of human beings. Human
:09:12. > :09:18.beings got us out of this before. Also, never underestimate America,
:09:18. > :09:24.Uncle Sam. They could surprise us all. We do not rather wake up every
:09:24. > :09:28.morning being optimistic rather than pessimistic, I ask you?
:09:28. > :09:34.said you supported the Government when they raised VAT up to 20 %.
:09:34. > :09:39.You still support them in that. Is it not harming the High Street?
:09:39. > :09:44.a different government had done it, I don't believe that if the Labour
:09:44. > :09:49.Party had won the last election they would not have done that.
:09:49. > :09:56.it Harminder High Street? I don't think so. I think it is tough
:09:56. > :10:01.medicine. -- harming the High Street. If we get through 11 and 12,
:10:01. > :10:05.next year, don't underestimate the impact of the Olympics, that will
:10:05. > :10:09.lift the nation's spirits, that will mean beer through the worst
:10:09. > :10:13.and can move on. It is uncomfortable to have a bit of
:10:13. > :10:18.inflation at the moment. I believe that the deficit will come down
:10:18. > :10:23.sharply. We will see the impact of the austerity measures and what VAT
:10:23. > :10:28.has done. I think by the time you get to the end of 2012, 15-18
:10:28. > :10:35.months away, you will see a better economy. Despite the deficit?
:10:35. > :10:39.coming down now. Do you think the Government can meet its targets?
:10:39. > :10:45.Surely it cannot do it by the end of the Government. I think the
:10:45. > :10:49.original target was to reduce it by half. But with the last government.
:10:50. > :10:55.Alistair Darling was going to reduce by half. The coalition have
:10:55. > :11:00.said they hope to eradicate it. They may or they may not. It will
:11:00. > :11:05.come down by a substantial margin. They will be in a significantly
:11:05. > :11:09.better position by the time of the next election. -- we will.
:11:09. > :11:13.economists wrote a letter in the Financial Times saying the top rate
:11:13. > :11:18.of tax should be scrapped because it is damaging. I don't understand
:11:18. > :11:26.the academic research that they have done to develop that case. It
:11:26. > :11:32.is absolutely and no no. How can I explain to my secretary that I am
:11:32. > :11:36.having less tax on my income and hers is not going down? The Prime
:11:36. > :11:40.Minister put that on the back- burner effectively and that is what
:11:40. > :11:48.it should be. I am happy to pay extra tax will the UK is in
:11:48. > :11:56.difficulty. When you hear the likes of Warren Buffett offering, other
:11:56. > :12:01.top businessmen is well, all of these people... You keep saying all
:12:01. > :12:09.these big Eddie Wade names. What they are proposing is that they
:12:09. > :12:13.give tax more. -- heavy weight. I am a bigger pay more tax. I am
:12:13. > :12:17.paying extraying extra VAT and for other goods and services. As is
:12:17. > :12:21.everyone else and the country. You are a wealthy man, should you be
:12:21. > :12:26.taxed more? I am happy to have a debate about that. Should you be
:12:26. > :12:32.taxed more, let's have the debate. It Warren Buffett has set very
:12:32. > :12:40.publicly, takes a more money from me. Would you say that? Let's look
:12:40. > :12:45.at that the other way round. I am a free market economist. I believe in
:12:45. > :12:49.a free market. I believe the penal rates and tax he had before
:12:49. > :12:52.Margaret Thatcher have reduced it is wrong. I believed that that
:12:52. > :12:59.reduction was the right thing. If, in the short-term, the occasion was
:12:59. > :13:05.made for me to pay more than 50 % tax and it would pay the -- help
:13:05. > :13:09.the UK, I would be prepared to do that. I would be prepared to do
:13:09. > :13:13.that. Are you prepared to go further and do but Warren Buffett
:13:13. > :13:18.has done and stepped forward and put their hand up... I am not that
:13:18. > :13:22.type of public figure but, yes. is interesting because we have not
:13:22. > :13:27.seen many British businessman come forward in the way that they have
:13:27. > :13:33.an say the main thing. Maybe we should ask them more. What is it? I
:13:33. > :13:40.wonder if it is a Dutch cultural thing. -- cultural thing. We should
:13:40. > :13:46.not forget where we came from. you go back to go be started, even
:13:46. > :13:50.from iced started work in the 1970s that until today, over a 40 year
:13:50. > :13:55.period, we are all better off. There is a price to be paid for
:13:55. > :14:04.that. If that price is that you have to pay more tax then fine.
:14:04. > :14:13.He said how could you explain to your secretary wider tax rate was
:14:13. > :14:20.being reduced. I wonder how you explained to you Secretary their
:14:20. > :14:25.huge pay-out when you left. When you left, I do left with �8 million.
:14:25. > :14:35.You have been criticised for being paid very large sums. I am not here
:14:35. > :14:39.to debate this. What the calculation is 8 million - the �8
:14:39. > :14:45.million is a theoretical amount of money that I could have got. In
:14:45. > :14:49.reality, the actual amount of cash is actually very much less. I have
:14:49. > :14:56.left cash in Marks & Spencer showing I have belief in the
:14:56. > :15:06.business. I got paid well. You were the best paid executive chairman. I
:15:06. > :15:08.
:15:08. > :15:15.was running the business. I branded business on a day-to-day basis. I
:15:15. > :15:20.think this is very interesting. The man who wrote the report sent that
:15:20. > :15:26.companies should comply or they should explain. He didn't say
:15:26. > :15:30.comply or else. The company explained at the time. What we
:15:30. > :15:34.would do come off for the record, is that since we don't have the
:15:34. > :15:39.chief executive at the moment, we will move Stuart Rose up as an
:15:39. > :15:46.option. We will then hire a chief executive, which we did. We then
:15:46. > :15:51.hired a chairman. I have not run the company since I left in
:15:51. > :15:55.December. In the meantime, the business has done fine. What I want
:15:55. > :16:00.to ask you is that the question of your pay. You may not like talking
:16:00. > :16:06.about you pay. You made the point that my conscience is entirely
:16:06. > :16:13.clear. I am very happy. Don't you ask yourself why nobody will defend
:16:13. > :16:16.you? Pay has not become a fashionable issue. I do not believe
:16:16. > :16:22.the pay that I have received, I don't know what the number was, let
:16:22. > :16:29.us assume that it was �2 million, was enough to run a 10 billion
:16:29. > :16:39.Corporation. I don't believe that was unreasonable. One of the things
:16:39. > :16:43.that we have seen is an incredible trained in Paris. When you... Would
:16:43. > :16:49.you tell us what you were paid when you start third, when you took over
:16:49. > :16:57.as chief executive in 2000 m for? Are probably earned more because I
:16:57. > :17:02.had a signing on fee. It is not a very relevanry relevan. If you do
:17:02. > :17:07.well, the argument is you should get paid. When you look at how you
:17:07. > :17:12.judge value of what you have added to a company, he turned the company
:17:12. > :17:19.around but you got add tremendous Arad of plaudits for that. In the
:17:19. > :17:25.years before you left, it was not doing too well. We have to
:17:25. > :17:33.separates Stuart Rose and the Marks & Spencer issued from the recession.
:17:33. > :17:40.The company did extremdid extremp to the end of 2007. Like every
:17:40. > :17:44.other company, it suffered. If you compare our share price, the high
:17:44. > :17:50.point and low-point, I don't think it'll be very different to where it
:17:50. > :17:54.was higher order it was low. We are in a pretty difficult hole. You
:17:54. > :17:58.started your interview by saying it was difficult. Retail analysts and
:17:58. > :18:08.not telling people to Rashad empire retail stocks at the moment and
:18:08. > :18:15.that is why it is low. -- to buy its retail stocks. Mark took over
:18:15. > :18:24.from year on a very high package. We can debate that. He failed to
:18:24. > :18:29.put out one thing. There were �4 billion of dividends. I think I was
:18:29. > :18:34.worth every penny in terms of the effort and time I put in. I would
:18:34. > :18:41.defend myself absolutely. Those on the shopfloor would say... If you
:18:41. > :18:46.talk to them,... What I ask about you, would they think they were
:18:46. > :18:51.worth more. Everybody thinks they are worth more. Any time I could
:18:51. > :18:57.say I have one to be paid more. Everybody believes they are worth
:18:57. > :19:04.more. An awful lot of the women do. An awful lot of a man are not
:19:04. > :19:11.getting paid the same amount as the men they are working alongside. Why
:19:11. > :19:19.do you think Marks & Spencer is a rarity? We are told there is a pay
:19:19. > :19:29.gap of 15.5 %. It is not true. It is an historic thing, which is bad.
:19:29. > :19:31.
:19:31. > :19:38.Is it not true? Are very is a pay gap? There ip? There ip. If you
:19:38. > :19:44.take the proper companies, I don't think that is the case. You having
:19:44. > :19:53.an accountant doing the job in- company X. I think men and women
:19:53. > :20:02.are paid the same. We don't pay them different rates of pay. I am
:20:02. > :20:09.with you. I am against it. Female managers are paid less than men
:20:09. > :20:14.doing the same job. If they are doing exactly the same job and they
:20:14. > :20:20.have the exact same length of service and benefits, it is wrong.
:20:20. > :20:25.Why is it happening? It is hard to get rid of historic issues. You
:20:25. > :20:31.ca caall women's pay up by 30% overnight. You would have a
:20:31. > :20:37.massive problem. Over time, they would catch up. There is
:20:37. > :20:43.transparency in large companies today. What about lower down? What
:20:43. > :20:51.a bad if you are not on the board? There should be transparency. They
:20:51. > :21:01.should be open pay scales. Is it right and proper that Mary knows
:21:01. > :21:02.
:21:02. > :21:12.wh whows what Philippi is earning. Identity that is right. --
:21:12. > :21:13.
:21:13. > :21:18.people doing the same job for study could be a girl, not a boy. There
:21:18. > :21:26.should be a marriage scale or whether you are and eight graded
:21:26. > :21:30.person or a be graded person. apart from the fact that you have
:21:30. > :21:35.more equality then you could ever deal with come up there is really
:21:35. > :21:41.no glass ceilings. There are a glass ceilings in some companies. I
:21:41. > :21:46.think it has two sides to the glass. Women feel they can't get through.
:21:46. > :21:56.I don't believe that. I have worked for women twice in my career - two
:21:56. > :22:02.women bosses. It was great. Do you think women learn too much? I think
:22:02. > :22:09.there is a slight feeling from themselves - I can't do it, or at I
:22:10. > :22:17.am a woman. Look at some of these were men. She had four and five
:22:17. > :22:27.children and ran a job. It is a little bit of a Pope issued there.
:22:27. > :22:27.
:22:27. > :22:31.I don't need it is as big an issue as people make out. We should
:22:31. > :22:38.explain, Mervyn is one of the company's that has been asked to
:22:38. > :22:43.make it clear what their plans are about women. Only eight came
:22:43. > :22:52.forward with plans. Marks & Spencer was one of them. Marks & Spencer
:22:52. > :23:02.have women on its board for a long time. It is odd. Or perhaps it
:23:02. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:07.isn't? We could debate this. A short debate is that women are as
:23:07. > :23:13.good as men. They seem to be better organised and just as able as men.
:23:13. > :23:18.If you had a man and a woman and 21 of them was better than the other,
:23:18. > :23:24.you should not be promoting the woman just because she is a woman.
:23:24. > :23:30.I do believe in equal opportunity. You have given up a job at Marks &
:23:30. > :23:35.Spencer. It is a very high profile role. You enjoyed the limelight.
:23:35. > :23:42.You are an outspoken man. What are you going to do next that is going
:23:42. > :23:49.to satisfy? satisfy? oing to be a box sticker. I don't know what I am
:23:50. > :23:56.going to do. My father retired 25 years ago and he felt he was ready
:23:56. > :24:00.to retire. We will exercise and to live better. I am not ready to hang
:24:00. > :24:05.my boots up. I am looking for something to do. I am a remarkably
:24:05. > :24:15.busy unemployed man. I had five days off in August when everyone
:24:15. > :24:34.
:24:34. > :24:38.seemed to have the whole month. The gales swept in on the Atlantic
:24:38. > :24:48.during Monday cannot bring him problems to the northern parts of
:24:48. > :24:48.
:24:48. > :24:53.the UK. -- bringing problems. The warnings have downgraded on Tuesday.
:24:53. > :24:57.Potentially one or two problems. You will need to take some care out
:24:57. > :25:03.there but not as windy as it was. Some pretty big gusts coming
:25:03. > :25:11.through northern parts of England. Also across Wales. Those winds
:25:11. > :25:16.bring in one or two showers as well. A largely dry story for Northern
:25:16. > :25:20.Ireland. Still a pretty windy start to the day. The rain likely to
:25:20. > :25:24.become an increasing problem across many north-western parts of
:25:24. > :25:31.Scotland - heavy and persistent across many parts of the Highlands.
:25:31. > :25:35.Still blowing through the central belt. Some care needed on the north
:25:35. > :25:45.and south roads for high-sided vehicles. We come out of the
:25:45. > :25:46.
:25:46. > :25:52.sunshine and into the cloud. One or two showers heading into London.
:25:52. > :26:02.Driven on quite quickly by does brisk winds. They will not last
:26:02. > :26:06.that long. That rate never gives up across north-west Scotland. Perhaps
:26:06. > :26:11.into the Glasgow area come the afternoon. Those winds coming
:26:11. > :26:16.through. Very unpleasant with that combination of wind and rain. Might
:26:16. > :26:21.just squeeze up to 20 degrees in the far south-east of England. As
:26:21. > :26:24.we go through the night time he read, a Tuesday night into
:26:24. > :26:31.Wednesday, the winds definitely showing signs of easing down by the
:26:31. > :26:37.end of the night. Just one or two showers. A few clear spells as well.
:26:37. > :26:46.Most places holding in double figures. Just dipping 28-9 across
:26:46. > :26:55.northern Scotland. A quiet Day on Wednesday. Not a huge amount of
:26:55. > :27:01.sunshine on Wednesday. Temperatures near the mid-September average.