:00:11. > :00:14.Lord Patten, welcome to HARDtalk. On taking over as chairman of the
:00:14. > :00:18.BBC Trust you said, the BBC is the best broadcasting organisation in
:00:18. > :00:23.the world. A big claim. Are you sure it is true? Yes, it is what
:00:23. > :00:31.friends in other countries tell me. Many of them get all their news
:00:31. > :00:35.from the BBC. I read an interview with Mrs David Bowie the other day.
:00:35. > :00:45.She said, my husband never believes anything until he sees it on the
:00:45. > :00:52.
:00:52. > :01:00.BBC. We should not be complacent, smug, arrogant. At its best, the
:01:00. > :01:07.BBC is as good as it gets. Before we go any further, you use a
:01:07. > :01:12.collective we about the BBC. Do you see yourself as an insider, an
:01:12. > :01:19.integral part of the BBC? I see myself as part of the governance of
:01:19. > :01:28.the BBC. There is a completely ridiculous argument about roles. Am
:01:28. > :01:32.I a cheerleader or am I a regulator? But independence is
:01:32. > :01:35.important. Are you independent of the BBC? No, but the BBC is
:01:35. > :01:45.independent of the Government. If the BBC does things well it is
:01:45. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :01:51.reasonable for me to chair. If there are mistakes with editorial
:01:51. > :01:55.guidelines it is for us to sort them out. You say you talk to
:01:55. > :01:57.people all around the world who believe that the BBC is the best
:01:57. > :02:07.international broadcaster. But let's look at the present and
:02:07. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:15.future. Last year the government froze the licence fee. It is seen
:02:15. > :02:25.by many people as a tax on owning a television. It is now frozen. The
:02:25. > :02:30.BBC has to make cuts of up to 20%. That is because it is on a frozen
:02:30. > :02:39.licence fee. It has to take on more responsibilities like the World
:02:39. > :02:44.Service. Television all round the world, it has got to take on
:02:44. > :02:52.financial responsibilities for the Welsh television service. It has
:02:52. > :02:59.got extra responsibilities. But 20% budget cuts. That will do serious
:02:59. > :03:02.damage to the quality of output? hope it will not do serious damage.
:03:02. > :03:07.At present we're talking to the executives - we're talking about
:03:07. > :03:10.how we can accommodate the BBC with a budget less than we would like to
:03:10. > :03:14.spend but we're talking about the BBC running for the next five years
:03:14. > :03:24.on �3.5 billion every year plus the income it can raise from commercial
:03:24. > :03:35.
:03:35. > :03:38.activities. We should be able to run a damn good public broadcaster
:03:38. > :03:47.on �3.5 billion every year, which we do not have to raise ourselves.
:03:47. > :03:51.It comes from licence-fee payers. So while I do not doubt that we
:03:51. > :03:55.have to make some painful choices - and first of all everybody is
:03:55. > :04:05.having to in the UK and around the world because of the financial
:04:05. > :04:13.
:04:13. > :04:16.crisis - I hope that many of the choices will be around efficiency.
:04:16. > :04:20.Then you talk about a damn good broadcaster making difficult
:04:20. > :04:27.choices, it gives down to the basic question: What should the BBC be
:04:27. > :04:30.doing? Where are the areas where it should not necessarily be? Much as
:04:30. > :04:38.I respect you, I'm not going to make announcements about budget
:04:38. > :04:42.choices now. But let me give you an example. It is increasingly tough
:04:42. > :04:47.for a public service broadcaster to compete for sports rights with
:04:47. > :04:51.subscription television, for example. That is started to be the
:04:51. > :04:55.case in the United States and that has started to be the case here now.
:04:55. > :05:05.We do a lot of smaller sports. We do Wimbledon and Six Nations and we
:05:05. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:14.have been doing Formula One exclusively. We have not been able
:05:14. > :05:24.to afford that so we have had to pare back Formula One and share it
:05:24. > :05:29.
:05:29. > :05:33.with Sky. What other sports do you see going? I hope there will be no
:05:33. > :05:37.others. I hope that that choice - and it was a painful choice,
:05:37. > :05:40.everyone who loves motor racing was cross with us because we do it so
:05:41. > :05:50.well - but we will still be doing motor racing. It will not be
:05:50. > :05:54.exclusive anymore. So you think other sports will stay as a result
:05:54. > :05:58.of that? I would hope so. There are still sports that are of some
:05:58. > :06:04.importance, like Six Nations. Match Of The Day. How could you get
:06:04. > :06:07.through a Saturday evening without that and Strictly Come Dancing?
:06:07. > :06:10.Strictly Come Dancing is an interesting one. It is a very
:06:10. > :06:18.popular entertainment programme. BBC runs all sorts of reality
:06:18. > :06:22.television programmes. Some of them are high-gloss entertainment comes
:06:22. > :06:25.some less so. It does quiz programmes, and cooking, property.
:06:25. > :06:35.All of these are shows that are very similar, if not equivalent, to
:06:35. > :06:38.
:06:38. > :06:46.shows on commercial networks. Why does the BBC need to do that?
:06:46. > :06:50.should educate and inform but also entertain. That is the trendy. --
:06:50. > :06:54.the Trinity. That was said by an American radio pioneer. That is
:06:54. > :06:57.what we have tried to do over the years. But when the squeeze is on
:06:57. > :07:01.is it not important to make choices? Surely one choice is to
:07:01. > :07:07.say, where we are doing things that are duplicated in the commercial
:07:07. > :07:10.sector, we're not offering anything unique there. You cannot run a
:07:10. > :07:16.national service paid for by everybody in the country just to
:07:16. > :07:20.satisfy me. I am rather curious because I do not watch EastEnders
:07:20. > :07:23.but people who do watch it will often go on to watch another
:07:23. > :07:33.programme which has, how can I put it, the ambition of educating and
:07:33. > :07:40.
:07:40. > :07:50.informing. If you get 5 million or more people watching a drama at 9pm
:07:50. > :07:50.
:07:50. > :07:54.in the evening you get a much larger audience for the 10pm news.
:07:54. > :08:02.If you get a small audience, 3 million, fewer people watch the
:08:02. > :08:07.news. It is called hammocking, apparently. You have successfully
:08:07. > :08:16.avoided telling me what you want to be cut. This is fear it gets
:08:16. > :08:22.difficult. Savings have to be made. The last man who sat in your chair,
:08:22. > :08:30.he said the BBC must avoid imposing universal cuts on everything. He
:08:30. > :08:38.said: In the end, you said, you have to make some big choices.
:08:38. > :08:43.hope we will be able to avoid cutting whole services. Amputation
:08:43. > :08:47.for the sake of it, in order to show one has been filled with
:08:47. > :08:52.testosterone, does not seem to me to be central. But if you do not
:08:52. > :08:57.amputate, the general body is diminished? Isn't that the point?
:08:57. > :09:00.hope we will be able to continue to run a very good service on radio
:09:00. > :09:05.and television but we will not be able to produce all the luxuries
:09:05. > :09:09.which we have been able to manage in the past. We will have to focus
:09:09. > :09:12.on our core and most valuable services. We will have to focus on
:09:12. > :09:17.our Corps and most valuable services: Children, drama, news,
:09:17. > :09:23.factual programmes. Those are things we will have do spend money
:09:23. > :09:28.on. We will not be able to spend as much money on sport and, I suspect,
:09:28. > :09:32.entertainment. What are the luxuries you will be able to do
:09:32. > :09:40.away with? That is something you will discover in October when you
:09:40. > :09:50.can interview one of my colleagues. We are in a process at the moment
:09:50. > :09:55.
:09:55. > :09:59.of discussing the final options we have to make, the final choices. I
:09:59. > :10:02.think we will be able to demonstrate at the end of this
:10:02. > :10:12.process there is a change about driving to greater efficiency and
:10:12. > :10:13.
:10:13. > :10:17.productivity and we will have to focus more clearly on our strengths.
:10:17. > :10:26.Just to finish this theme, is it safe to assume that some of the
:10:26. > :10:35.largest celebrities will have to be thanked and sent elsewhere? In has
:10:35. > :10:39.already been happening. We have heard from Jonathan Ross about his
:10:39. > :10:46.sadness at having to claim his millions from elsewhere. But there
:10:46. > :10:53.are 14 stars who are paid millions every year. Will they have to go?
:10:53. > :11:02.want to reassure the audience that does not include you. Doubtless it
:11:02. > :11:07.should do! We will have to cut down on talent costs. First we will
:11:07. > :11:17.reveal the figures. Not every individual because you get into
:11:17. > :11:17.
:11:17. > :11:23.privacy but we cannot pay as much for people. We have shown overall
:11:23. > :11:27.figures and made it clear we cannot pay as much for people. It is part
:11:27. > :11:31.of our job at the BBC to bring on talent. If they want to go
:11:31. > :11:33.elsewhere, fine. What people find is that they go off to other
:11:33. > :11:37.channels for money but nobody watches them. The international
:11:37. > :11:40.role of the BBC. You say it is important but why is it as
:11:40. > :11:44.important when you go to countries like India and Turkey and you
:11:44. > :11:47.switch the television on and there is a host of national and
:11:47. > :11:50.international news providers, why is it as important as it was?
:11:50. > :11:53.Because people think BBC News tells what is going on. Unfortunately
:11:53. > :11:56.many of the broadcasters in other countries have a news agenda which
:11:56. > :12:06.is biased or corrupted by government control or by commercial
:12:06. > :12:40.
:12:40. > :12:44.interests. If it is that important how do you feel about the fact that
:12:44. > :12:48.in the last 12 months the World Service in radio has frankly been
:12:48. > :12:51.very badly hit by a round of cuts? Five Language Services have been
:12:51. > :12:57.closed down and seven others have gone online with no radio element.
:12:57. > :13:00.Some of those services include Russian, Mandarin, Spanish for Cuba.
:13:00. > :13:10.The problem with Mandarin is that it was effectively blocked and
:13:10. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:19.there is no point in going on with it. It is easier for the Chinese to
:13:19. > :13:25.block the internet. If you talk to a group of Chinese students about
:13:25. > :13:28.firewalls they give you an old- fashioned answer. Would I have
:13:28. > :13:38.preferred it if we had been given responsibility for the World
:13:38. > :13:38.
:13:38. > :13:42.Service without an initial budget cut? Of course but everybody has
:13:42. > :13:52.had to face up to large budget cuts because of the extent of the
:13:52. > :13:53.
:13:53. > :13:58.deficit. You have got the option, because the BBC will take over the
:13:58. > :14:02.funding, you have a guarantee that some of these services will be
:14:02. > :14:06.restored and new money will be put into World Service. We have already
:14:06. > :14:11.found some new money for some of these services. For example I felt
:14:11. > :14:14.conflicted about cutting back on the Hindi short-wave service. It is
:14:14. > :14:18.old technology but if you are one of the 10 million Indian peasant
:14:18. > :14:21.farmers with no electricity it is rather important. I was keen we
:14:21. > :14:25.should continue with our ability to cover what is happening in the
:14:25. > :14:35.Middle East and we have restored money, some of it coming from the
:14:35. > :14:40.
:14:40. > :14:50.Foreign office and some of it You talk about truth-telling and
:14:50. > :14:55.
:14:55. > :15:01.why that is important. Let me turn to television. BBC World News is
:15:01. > :15:06.commercially funded. Too little. The budgets are tight. It has a
:15:06. > :15:10.budget of �63 million. Because of state aims, we have to be careful
:15:10. > :15:20.about its commercial funding. It has gone up by �10 million over the
:15:20. > :15:24.
:15:24. > :15:27.last year. But one of the areas, I am not just saying it because I am
:15:27. > :15:32.on your programme...one of the areas where we want to spend more
:15:32. > :15:42.money is on World news. One recent case that has raised serious
:15:42. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:54.concerns is a private company, FBC, making programmes for the BBC.
:15:54. > :15:57.Those programmes have included a focus on Malaysia. FBC, according
:15:57. > :16:03.to the Independent, has received substantial money to do corporate
:16:03. > :16:10.strategic work on behalf of the Malaysian government. The BBC says
:16:10. > :16:17.it was not aware of that. It says it should have been. Does that
:16:17. > :16:20.raise serious questions about the systems the BBC uses? It raises
:16:20. > :16:22.serious questions about the importance of sticking to the
:16:22. > :16:30.editorial guidelines, which are clear on the case you have
:16:30. > :16:32.mentioned. You should not get into this smudgy, blurry area where you
:16:33. > :16:36.cannot be certain that commercial interests have not affected the way
:16:36. > :16:46.a story is covered. In this case, there was a breach of editorial
:16:46. > :16:51.
:16:51. > :16:54.guidelines. The Trust has made that clear it should not have happened.
:16:54. > :16:57.One of the reasons that the Trust exists is, like any good board, to
:16:57. > :17:00.stop things like that happening. Does it mean we cannot possibly
:17:00. > :17:03.produce a really good and independent world news with
:17:03. > :17:06.commercial income? It doesn't. I want to see us providing more
:17:06. > :17:16.commercial income through co- production and through other BBC
:17:16. > :17:21.
:17:21. > :17:29.channels, and through proceeds from Worldwide. FBC say that at no time
:17:29. > :17:35.the programmes were influenced by the funding. But the point is, the
:17:35. > :17:44.FBC programmes have been suspended. It seems there is a real concern
:17:44. > :17:49.that they are not adequate. The checks and balances. What we are
:17:49. > :17:52.clear about is the guidelines should be followed. If there is any
:17:52. > :17:56.question of people raising doubts about the accuracy of a piece of
:17:56. > :18:02.television, it is a cause for concern and we will stop. I wonder
:18:02. > :18:06.whether there is a bigger question from this. The BBC, because budgets
:18:06. > :18:15.are tight, the BBC is desperate to find as many creative ways to draw
:18:15. > :18:18.money as it can. There's BBC Worldwide... But you can do it
:18:18. > :18:25.without undermining the reputation of the BBC. That is an interesting
:18:25. > :18:35.assurance. Are you sure that's always true? Am I sure we will
:18:35. > :18:35.
:18:35. > :18:39.never make a mistake? Of course not. Am I sure we should never be able
:18:39. > :18:43.to put in place guidelines which, if followed, will stop us making a
:18:43. > :18:51.mistake? Yes. This is about the BBC brand as a whole. Which is really
:18:51. > :18:55.important. Of course. As it has expanded into buying Lonely Planet
:18:55. > :18:58.and Top Gear and making big money from top magazines, and buying
:18:58. > :19:08.other companies, do you think the BBC is in danger of becoming too
:19:08. > :19:17.big and the commercialism... ..wagging the dog and tail metaphor.
:19:17. > :19:20.Will it take over? What is clear to me is that Worldwide has been
:19:20. > :19:23.incredibly successful and should fo fo BBC's core activities.
:19:23. > :19:33.There are some things Worldwide got into, like magazines, which we
:19:33. > :19:35.
:19:35. > :19:38.should have disposed of, and they have. They've sold them off.
:19:38. > :19:47.Worldwide should try to place themselves at the heart of the
:19:47. > :19:53.creative content in this country. I think it should work in partnership
:19:53. > :20:01.with independent producers to sell to the rest of the world.
:20:01. > :20:05.profit matters in that instance. Commercial nous matters. I want to
:20:05. > :20:13.shift. When you are thinking about bringing the attitudes of the
:20:13. > :20:16.marketplace into the BBC, I do start thinking about pay. I think
:20:16. > :20:21.about what you said, which is, the BBC has paid executives salaries as
:20:21. > :20:24.if they work at Barclays. Do you think that, your word, toxic
:20:24. > :20:32.problem has gone away? I have tried to deal with it quickly and
:20:32. > :20:35.decisively. Principally, I have done it by getting the agreement of
:20:35. > :20:37.the executives to be the first organisation to implement the
:20:37. > :20:47.proposals, the main proposals, on public service pay which were
:20:47. > :20:50.
:20:50. > :20:57.advocated by the distinguished economist Will Hutton. But that's...
:20:57. > :21:01.The basic proposal is you cap the highest salary to the medium pay.
:21:01. > :21:05.You stop a big gap opening between what the medium is paid and what
:21:05. > :21:15.the seniors are paid. The director general, chief executive, Mark
:21:15. > :21:19.
:21:19. > :21:23.Thomson, earnt �779,000 last year. Admittedly down on the year before
:21:23. > :21:27.but still so far beyond the median salary inside the BBC. It busts
:21:27. > :21:31.your desire. If there is another director-general during my time at
:21:31. > :21:35.the Trust, they will not be paid that much. What I have made
:21:35. > :21:42.absolutely clear is we will be bearing down on the cap on
:21:42. > :21:48.executive pay to reduce that ratio with median pay. We're also...
:21:48. > :21:52.I stop you there? It is extraordinary that you as the
:21:52. > :21:56.chairman of the BBC Trust are telling me the chief executive is
:21:56. > :22:00.overpaid? It is not extraordinary for me to say I think all BBC staff
:22:00. > :22:10.have to take account of the fact the BBC is a public sector
:22:10. > :22:20.
:22:20. > :22:23.organisation. To say what I've said in the past, you cannot on the one
:22:23. > :22:26.hand talk about the public service ethos and think you can be paid
:22:26. > :22:29.what you might be paid if you worked in the financial services
:22:29. > :22:35.sector. To be clear, Mark Thomson and other long-serving executives
:22:35. > :22:43.were paid too much money. I am sure they were worth every penny. But
:22:43. > :22:46.they will not be paid as much in the future. To end on this thought,
:22:46. > :22:53.in 2016 the BBC's charter will be reviewed by the Government. What
:22:53. > :22:56.will the BBC look like then? I hope when it's reviewd it will still be
:22:56. > :22:58.looked at as an organisation that provides a public space for
:22:58. > :23:02.national conversation, respected around the world for the imbalance
:23:02. > :23:05.and accuracy of reporting, and I hope it will continue to produce
:23:05. > :23:15.programmes which understand the average man or woman is better than
:23:15. > :23:22.
:23:22. > :23:28.the average. Will it be much smaller? It will not be as big as
:23:28. > :23:32.it would have been if we did not have these cuts. It will still be,
:23:32. > :23:37.I think, the best public service broadcaster in the world and one of
:23:37. > :23:47.the three or four largest employers of journalists. We have to leave it
:23:47. > :23:58.
:23:58. > :24:08.there, thank you for joining us. For many, a different day today
:24:08. > :24:09.
:24:09. > :24:14.compared to yesterday. More cloud for northern and western areas.
:24:14. > :24:20.Some of that rain, heavy. You can see the picture. Lots of cloud,
:24:20. > :24:28.showers or central areas of the UK. Persistent in the wet. On the
:24:28. > :24:31.upside, it will not be as cold. A lot of rain for Northern Ireland,
:24:31. > :24:35.the rain will move into western parts of Scotland. A generally
:24:35. > :24:38.cloudy start to the day. The far north of Scotland should be quite
:24:39. > :24:44.bright. Temperatures in Lerwick of about six degrees. More cloud in
:24:44. > :24:49.northern parts of England. Outbreaks of rain. More showers in
:24:49. > :24:59.the Home Counties. But the far south of England, a fairly sunny
:24:59. > :25:04.
:25:04. > :25:13.start to the day. Dry for many in the far west. Cloudy skies.
:25:13. > :25:17.Persistent rain for Scotland. This band of rain will move its way from
:25:17. > :25:19.west to east. Some of it will be on the heavy side, especially the
:25:19. > :25:24.northern parts of England, southeast Scotland. The far south-
:25:24. > :25:29.east of England, the southern coast, not a bad day. Some sunshine and
:25:29. > :25:34.temperatures in London about 22 degrees but not as warm elsewhere.
:25:34. > :25:38.Cooler elsewhere. Cloud and rain. That rain will persist across
:25:38. > :25:45.Scotland, into north-eto north-ed. It all comes from this area of low
:25:45. > :25:52.pressure. With it, these isobars are tightly packed. As we go into
:25:52. > :25:55.the weekend, some blustery winds from the north-west. With it,
:25:55. > :26:00.showers will be especially heavy in the western and northern areas
:26:00. > :26:08.during Saturday. We will all see showers during the day. More for
:26:08. > :26:15.the west. For the Great North Run, in Newcastle, there could be a few
:26:15. > :26:18.showers. Especially during the run itself. Coverage of that on BBC One.
:26:19. > :26:24.Most of the showers confined to eastern areas. Further west, a dry