:00:38. > :00:42.UK? Bill Bratton, welcome to HARDtalk. You have 40 years of
:00:42. > :00:47.experience in policing. Are you firmly convinced that the ideas you
:00:47. > :00:52.have two or far have universal application? That they are as
:00:52. > :00:56.relevant in London as they are in New York city? I certainly do. I
:00:56. > :01:03.have seen first-hand how some of those ideas have worked in other
:01:03. > :01:07.places around the world. How many ideas which were formulated in
:01:07. > :01:13.Britain have worked in my country. Picking up on that notion that they
:01:14. > :01:21.are applicable - what has David Cameron ask you to? Very
:01:22. > :01:25.specifically to participate in a conference that is now being formed
:01:25. > :01:32.for 12th October and 13th, to be held in London with several dozen
:01:32. > :01:36.experts from Great Britain, the United States and other places, to
:01:36. > :01:41.talk about gang violence, how to reduce it, and how to prevent it
:01:41. > :01:47.from happening. Your role has been characterised as an adviser. Would
:01:47. > :01:51.that be fair? Not so much an adviser to the Prime Minister
:01:51. > :01:58.himself, but to the Home Office. The Home Office, as you know in
:01:58. > :02:03.your country, is responsible for public safety. As people around the
:02:03. > :02:07.world are well aware - we have had a serious public order issue in
:02:07. > :02:13.recent weeks in the UK. In her early August we saw a dramatic and
:02:13. > :02:18.shocking scenes of violence on our streets -- in early August. Have
:02:18. > :02:24.you spoken to Mr Cameron personally since those riots? Only briefly, at
:02:24. > :02:29.which time he extended the invitation to join the conference
:02:29. > :02:33.which is now on the calendar. you have any concern that the idea
:02:33. > :02:39.that you will come - you will participate in this conference, you
:02:39. > :02:42.will put your ideas into the mix - that has attracted some suspicion,
:02:42. > :02:52.indeed commit irritation from senior police officers in the
:02:52. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :02:58.United Kingdom. -- it indeed, irritation. That is unfortunate. My
:02:58. > :03:04.relationship with my counterparts in the British police service is
:03:05. > :03:08.exemplary. I received my CBE from the British Queen for furthering
:03:08. > :03:11.relationship between my Police Service and British police services.
:03:11. > :03:16.I think that is unfortunate. We have been working closely together
:03:16. > :03:21.for many decades now. That relationship will move forward in a
:03:21. > :03:31.very co-operative manner. In a sense, that is why point.
:03:31. > :03:32.
:03:32. > :03:37.Relationships have been forged over many years, but one of those top
:03:38. > :03:42.cops, Sergiou audit said that the idea of reaching across the
:03:42. > :03:46.Atlantic for policing ideas was, to use his words, stupid. He told me
:03:46. > :03:54.on the programme the other day that the British model of policing is
:03:54. > :03:59.fundamentally different from the American one. He has his opinion
:03:59. > :04:04.and I have mine - I don't think there are significant differences.
:04:04. > :04:08.The goal of both police services us usce crime. I think in
:04:08. > :04:13.the United States, unfortunately because of our history of gun-
:04:13. > :04:18.related violence, the violence we experience is, unfortunately for us,
:04:18. > :04:24.more significant than that which you experience in the British Isles.
:04:24. > :04:29.That is our failing. The majority of your police officers voluntarily
:04:29. > :04:34.and willingly go about their duties unarmed. A circumstance that could
:04:34. > :04:37.not be, unfortunately, tolerated in my country. I think we have more
:04:37. > :04:43.similarities than differences. I think we have a lot to learn from
:04:43. > :04:48.each other's experiences. In particular the issue of gangs. The
:04:48. > :04:55.issue on which I have been asked to speak to. My successor in the LAPD
:04:55. > :05:00.has received an invitation as well. The idea it is to share what we
:05:00. > :05:04.know in terms of what has worked and what has not worked. I think
:05:04. > :05:12.our experience with gangs is a much longer experience in terms of their
:05:12. > :05:22.history that we have. Isn't the point really about what has not
:05:22. > :05:24.
:05:24. > :05:34.worked? There are about 400 gangs in Los Angeles - many of them very
:05:34. > :05:36.
:05:36. > :05:39.heavily armed. The profound problem you have with that culture - you
:05:39. > :05:45.presenting a representative analysis in the UK - that is a bit
:05:45. > :05:49.of a stretch. Let's look at it in medical terms. Could you say that
:05:49. > :05:52.doctors in the British Isles would not want to talk to their
:05:52. > :05:55.colleagues about diseases that have similarities and understand how we
:05:55. > :05:59.are beginning to effectively deal with our disease which is more
:05:59. > :06:05.serious but has many similarities? We do not want to talk with
:06:05. > :06:09.somebody who had 400 patients to work on? In my case, 400 gangs -
:06:09. > :06:13.rather than speaking with someone who has had no patience at all. I
:06:13. > :06:16.think you want to go where problems are more serious before they become
:06:16. > :06:21.more serious in your own domain to see how you might prevent both
:06:21. > :06:25.problems from becoming more serious. I think there is a lot to be shared.
:06:25. > :06:30.It just strikes me that your mind set might be rather different from
:06:31. > :06:33.those people at the top of policing in the UK. You were quoted - you
:06:33. > :06:40.watched the riots unfold on your television and you were quoted
:06:40. > :06:45.afterwards as saying that the English riots... "young people have
:06:45. > :06:48.been emboldened by quarters police tactics and lenient sentencing".
:06:48. > :06:53.Are you suggesting a British police have got it wrong - that they are
:06:53. > :06:57.too soft? That is a decision you will have to make. In terms of the
:06:57. > :07:01.United States and the unfortunate experience we have had with our
:07:01. > :07:09.riots, in Los Angeles in the early 1990s that took in excess of 50
:07:09. > :07:15.lives - a lot of gun-related violence - the circumstances I was
:07:15. > :07:18.commenting on was that there had been a delayed police response. No
:07:18. > :07:22.response to some of what was occurring in the early stages. That
:07:22. > :07:31.was a mistake there was made in Los Angeles in the 1990s that
:07:31. > :07:35.contributed significantly to that right getting out of control. In
:07:35. > :07:45.policing you do not give up to a Tory - as quickly as possible you
:07:45. > :07:48.
:07:48. > :07:53.begin with appropriate levels of force. -- give up territory.
:07:53. > :07:57.have talked about needing to apply "a doctrine of escalating Paul's".
:07:57. > :08:04.You have also said that you would like the criminal element to fear
:08:04. > :08:10.the police -- escalating force. These are comments which my
:08:10. > :08:19.previous guest said successful policing is when the public do not
:08:19. > :08:29.fear thepolice. It is when the public trust the cops, not pure
:08:29. > :08:36.
:08:36. > :08:40.them. -- not fear them.... Their new head of the Metropolitan Police
:08:40. > :08:44.is using exactly my language - that the criminal element among the
:08:44. > :08:48.public need to be in the era, while the vast majority of the law
:08:48. > :08:58.abiding public need to respect and be respected by the police -- be
:08:58. > :09:01.
:09:01. > :09:04.Enfield. We can mince words, if you want, but again, I would look to
:09:04. > :09:08.the leadership of the Metropolitan Police and his opening a Commons at
:09:08. > :09:12.the time of his appointment - he basically said the same thing I
:09:12. > :09:17.said. -- opening comments. Criminals need to fear the police,
:09:17. > :09:21.not a pure brutality or being abused but feared that if they
:09:21. > :09:24.violate a law, if they violate an ordnance that the police will,
:09:24. > :09:29.within their powers, do something to control that behaviour and
:09:29. > :09:31.change that behaviour. They will. Lawfully, compassionately and
:09:31. > :09:35.consistently. In rich neighbourhoods and poor
:09:35. > :09:40.neighbourhoods. But when you talk about having more arrows in the
:09:40. > :09:46.quiver, as you did - it points to your belief that the British police,
:09:46. > :09:52.who, traditionally, have not armed themselves, should use different
:09:52. > :09:55.kinds of weapons - whether that be rubber bullets, water cannon,
:09:55. > :10:01.Tasers, or routinely arming themselves with guns. What do you
:10:01. > :10:04.think? I made no comment to that. I am very admiring of the British
:10:04. > :10:07.police services, particularly their rank and file who have consistently
:10:07. > :10:13.voted to not arm themselves, believing that in doing so they
:10:13. > :10:18.would escalate acts of criminality directed against them. They are to
:10:18. > :10:23.be very admired in that they choose to limit the weaponry that they
:10:23. > :10:27.carried and are equipped with. Decisions as to weaponry and non-
:10:27. > :10:32.lethal weapons - they are up to each individual police force, the
:10:32. > :10:37.same as in the United States. In my country, some police forces do not
:10:37. > :10:46.carry Tasers, some will not used rubber bullets or water cannons. I
:10:46. > :10:49.have not abdicated any type of weapon, nor would I. That is
:10:49. > :10:53.ultimately up to the British services themselves. They do have
:10:54. > :10:58.an obligation to protect the members of the force who put
:10:58. > :11:01.themselves in harm's way and to equip them appropriately to respond
:11:01. > :11:06.to forces directed against them. We do not expect a police officer who
:11:06. > :11:12.is confronted with a knife to not have a superior weapon to address
:11:12. > :11:18.that. That is why, unfortunately for you over the years, more and
:11:18. > :11:25.more of your police have been equipped with weaponry. I would
:11:25. > :11:30.like to discuss your record in New York and Los Angeles in a little
:11:30. > :11:34.bit. Your success in bringing down crime rate has won you a lot of
:11:34. > :11:38.admirers around the world. I have mentioned the role you will play in
:11:38. > :11:41.his upcoming conference at the request of David Cameron. It is
:11:41. > :11:48.reported that David Cameron and those at Number Ten Downing Street
:11:48. > :11:52.wanted your name in the frame for the Metropolitan Chief Constable -
:11:52. > :12:02.the top policing job in the UK - running London's police service.
:12:02. > :12:02.
:12:02. > :12:08.Did they ask you to apply? He did not. I have think there has been a
:12:09. > :12:13.lot of speculation, all stemming from a comment he made while
:12:13. > :12:17.addressing the Murdoch scandal. He said that now it might be an
:12:17. > :12:22.appropriate time to look beyond our Shaw is in terms of expertise in
:12:22. > :12:25.police issues. I don't think he ever used my name. He and I have
:12:25. > :12:31.never had a conversation about the issue of leadership of the
:12:31. > :12:34.Metropolitan Police. Would you have liked the job? I have made it quite
:12:35. > :12:38.clear that if the position were open and available to outsiders
:12:38. > :12:42.such as myself that it would certainly be a position I would
:12:42. > :12:47.certainly entertain applying for. It is the most prestigious police
:12:47. > :12:53.position in the world of democratic policing because of the duality of
:12:53. > :12:57.its responsibilities - not only does it have local, city of London
:12:57. > :13:06.policing responsibilities it has significant responsibility for
:13:06. > :13:11.national security, particularly I wonder what you made of it, when
:13:11. > :13:19.it was being discussed that you were a candour. The Home Secretary
:13:19. > :13:26.seemed to think it was not a good idea and then said any candidate
:13:26. > :13:31.has to be a British resident. was disappointing in that I would
:13:31. > :13:35.have liked the opportunity, certainly. I have spent most of my
:13:35. > :13:39.career in policing. Recent years, in the private sector and enjoying
:13:39. > :13:46.that but the temptation of London, a city that I love, a country that
:13:46. > :13:52.I love, a police service that I respect and is respected around the
:13:52. > :14:01.world, I would be lying, deceiving you if I were to profess that I
:14:01. > :14:05.would not have been interested. The decision, restricting it to British
:14:05. > :14:10.citizens, that is her responsibility. There was some
:14:10. > :14:14.discussion as to whether that was a requirement that it be a British
:14:14. > :14:24.citizen. It was never clarified in any of the news accounts eyesore.
:14:24. > :14:25.
:14:25. > :14:30.In terms of the decision... seems it takes an enormous amount
:14:30. > :14:33.of self confidence to think you could come into the city and learn
:14:33. > :14:41.the culture, the political environment. Clearly you are not
:14:41. > :14:47.short of that self-confidence. not short of self-confidence at all.
:14:47. > :14:55.Coming in to New York from Boston, to Los Angeles from New York -
:14:55. > :14:59.three very different cities, a set of issues, departments. The idea of
:14:59. > :15:08.a challenge is something I respond to, I think I have responded to
:15:08. > :15:11.well. If I may interrupt... I know you still observe things closely.
:15:11. > :15:17.It strikes me that right now there is a challenge facing the British
:15:17. > :15:22.police force, England and Wales particularly - 20% cuts in funding
:15:22. > :15:27.for the police. 16,000 police officers will lose their jobs.
:15:27. > :15:32.Surveys suggest that 86% of the police think it will have a
:15:32. > :15:35.damaging effect on levels of crime. From your experience in big city
:15:35. > :15:44.policing in the United States, if you cut the numbers you have a
:15:44. > :15:48.problem, don't you? You have a problem. We are experiencing that
:15:48. > :15:54.in the United States. Yesterday kind in New Jersey they are going
:15:54. > :15:58.to lay off one-third of the police department, they said. In the city
:15:58. > :16:05.of New York the police force has been cut by 7,000 police officers
:16:05. > :16:12.in the last seven, eight years. In the city I just left two years ago,
:16:12. > :16:22.Los Angeles - we were able to increase the police force from
:16:22. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:34.9, 9,000, as a result of cuts and budget assessment it is
:16:34. > :16:37.
:16:37. > :16:42.down another 10%. In 2002 there was a larger force and crime rate.
:16:42. > :16:46.There are fewer police officers on the street now because they are
:16:46. > :16:50.taking time off rather than overtime. The issues you are about
:16:50. > :16:56.to face in many instances are being phased in the United States. We are
:16:56. > :17:00.still benefiting from the residual impact of all that was led in the
:17:00. > :17:07.1990s and the investment that was made in the 1990s. We will wait to
:17:07. > :17:15.see if the cuts to have an impact. The country is much safer than the
:17:15. > :17:19.1990s and in your country, if the cuts do occur - and cuts are always
:17:19. > :17:28.regrettable - you're going to have to face up to it. Faced a crisis
:17:28. > :17:31.and the challenges. It is not just about cuts. The focus is on the
:17:31. > :17:37.government's determination to bring in elected commissioners in
:17:37. > :17:45.districts. We have not had, in England and Wales in the policing
:17:45. > :17:50.system before. You were appointed to the top job in New York by Rudy
:17:51. > :17:59.Giuliani. You worked well and then he fell out and after a couple of
:17:59. > :18:03.years you walk away from New York City. This is what Rudy Giuliani
:18:03. > :18:08.said - he was good at public relations but I had to supply the
:18:08. > :18:12.substance. Three-quarters of the ideas where ideas I gave to him.
:18:13. > :18:22.Isn't it a problem that the politicians think they can do the
:18:23. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:38.certainly had our differences. Where the ideas that -- came from.
:18:38. > :18:41.
:18:41. > :18:47.The bulk of the ideas, were caused the men and women of the New York
:18:47. > :18:57.City police. We have 17,000 police departments in this country. You
:18:57. > :19:01.
:19:01. > :19:05.have between 40,050 1,000 in the country. -- 40,000 and 50,000.
:19:05. > :19:15.You're elected government has decided to move in another
:19:15. > :19:17.
:19:17. > :19:24.direction where the leadership is more politically and to -- more
:19:24. > :19:30.responsible to politics and the community. There will be issues,
:19:30. > :19:34.certainly. At the same time, it is a direction that has been clearly
:19:34. > :19:44.laid out. It is the intent of your government, if I understand it, to
:19:44. > :19:45.
:19:45. > :19:49.implement this over the next year or two. It has worked for us in the
:19:49. > :19:56.United States. If it will work in your country, that remains to be
:19:56. > :20:01.seen. Those that put them into office, the voters, feel they want
:20:01. > :20:04.a change going forward as I understand it. I just wanted for a
:20:04. > :20:13.moment to think about your achievement in New York, Los
:20:13. > :20:21.Angeles. You brought a crime down - - brought crime levels down
:20:21. > :20:28.dramatically. You cleaned up those cities. Used a means which was a
:20:28. > :20:31.mix of statistical analysis to do some preventative policing. You
:20:31. > :20:37.made sure there were a lot of guys on the streets to ensure that there
:20:37. > :20:45.was no sense of impunity on the streets. I have looked at some
:20:45. > :20:49.recent research that says you are successful. There is evidence in
:20:49. > :20:54.New York that police are under pressure to meet their targets,
:20:54. > :21:03.sometimes by finessing the figures. Are you worried about that?
:21:03. > :21:10.that at all. When we began to accept responsibility for crime,
:21:10. > :21:15.many of our political and economic leaders had felt that the causes of
:21:15. > :21:20.crimes - racism, poverty, demographics, the economy - those
:21:20. > :21:29.are influences but not the causes. The causes of crime are individual
:21:29. > :21:35.and group behaviour. Or in a moment of passion, people are in that
:21:35. > :21:40.situation. Police in a democracy control behaviour. We have to do it
:21:40. > :21:45.lawfully, we cannot break the law to enforce it. We have to do with
:21:45. > :21:52.consistently, we have to police evenly across the board - poor and
:21:52. > :22:02.rich neighbourhoods. We can be held accountable for crime going up and
:22:02. > :22:12.
:22:12. > :22:17.down. The system we used in New York was intended to gather
:22:17. > :22:23.information, effective tactic is and what would work and lastly,
:22:23. > :22:27.continually see if the crime is going back. If I may interrupt, a
:22:27. > :22:32.criminology professor used to be a New York cop. His research, he says,
:22:32. > :22:37.shows that people in the Era that you introduced feel enormous
:22:37. > :22:44.pressure to downgrade crimes. He is basically saying that police fear
:22:44. > :22:50.the targets more than they fear or doing their job properly. He is
:22:50. > :22:55.entitled to his opinion. It is a subject of great debate, on going
:22:55. > :23:01.in New York. Some of the concerns in your government - the targets
:23:01. > :23:07.that governments have imposed on policing and directions, bullies
:23:07. > :23:16.are spending more time dealing with paperwork than events on the street.
:23:16. > :23:20.-- police are spending. I am happy to have people debate it. The
:23:20. > :23:24.system works and I am very comfortable that people understand
:23:24. > :23:28.what the aims are, that they share what they're doing to meet them and
:23:28. > :23:36.when they are not meeting them so we can learn from the success and
:23:36. > :23:45.failure. In the city I live and the City I just left, Los Angeles, they
:23:45. > :23:52.are much safer. Effective policing, I think, I have done a pretty good
:23:52. > :24:00.job in my career. A lot of what I implemented in the United States I
:24:00. > :24:03.learnt from my British colleagues. Bill Bratton... I am a sorry to
:24:03. > :24:13.interrupt but we have to ended there. Thank you so much for
:24:13. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:35.Hello. Wednesday will be quite blustery. Further south, not all
:24:35. > :24:39.
:24:39. > :24:49.sunshine. The day is summarised across the north as one of blustery
:24:49. > :24:50.
:24:50. > :24:54.showers. It could be quite a windy day. The weather front is coming
:24:55. > :24:58.through and it will be a heavy burst of rain. In the south, the
:24:58. > :25:02.weather will move away from the coast. It could be into the
:25:02. > :25:08.afternoon before we see the rain stops. Things will brighten up
:25:08. > :25:12.quite nicely. We get some regional perspective. Dry across the
:25:13. > :25:17.Midlands, clouds thickening ahead of the weather front. Sharp
:25:17. > :25:23.downpours but behind that, sunshine for the central, southern and
:25:23. > :25:33.eastern parts of Scotland for Northern Ireland, a disappointing
:25:33. > :25:34.
:25:34. > :25:41.start. Brighter skies moving in on -- in the afternoons. There will be
:25:41. > :25:44.one or two showers across the west, parts of the south-west as well but
:25:44. > :25:48.predominantly dry. After the disappointing start across the
:25:48. > :25:52.south-east and East Anglia, things will improve. Into the evening and
:25:52. > :26:02.the first part of the night the band of weather will move into the
:26:02. > :26:06.
:26:06. > :26:15.North Sea. Relatively clear skies. No chance of mist and fog. Quite a
:26:15. > :26:19.number of isobars pushing away any prospects of mist and fog overnight.
:26:19. > :26:25.They were the fund in the Atlantic, trying to move into Scotland and
:26:25. > :26:31.Northern Ireland, certainly in the west. Elsewhere quite a decent day.