:00:03. > :00:11.Britain. He told delegates he wanted a society where hard work
:00:11. > :00:21.and responsibility were awarded. That is the headlines. Now it is
:00:21. > :00:22.
:00:22. > :00:28.time for HARDtalk. Maybe toppling the Gaddafi regime
:00:28. > :00:33.was the easy part. Libya's new role as are now committed to building a
:00:33. > :00:40.united, democratic state from the ruins of the canal's dictatorship.
:00:40. > :00:45.Can it be done? As yet there is no functioning government in Tripoli.
:00:45. > :00:53.My guest is the chief operations manager of the stabilisation team,
:00:53. > :01:03.Aref Ali Nayed, he is in Dubai. How long will it take the new Libya to
:01:03. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:36.Aref Ali Nayed in Dubai, welcome to HARDtalk. There is no fully
:01:36. > :01:41.functioning central government in Tripoli. Why not? I don't think
:01:41. > :01:47.that is an accurate statement. The caretaker executive team has been
:01:47. > :01:52.in Tripoli and from the valley early days of the liberation of
:01:52. > :01:57.Tripoli, the Deputy Prime Minister came into Tripoli and ministers
:01:57. > :02:04.also and the government is being run out of the building of the
:02:04. > :02:13.prime ministership, the Prime Minister's office. Most ministers
:02:13. > :02:18.are in Tripoli. Or at least they had been in Tripoli. It is
:02:18. > :02:22.interesting the way you phrase it, most of them had been in Tripoli. I
:02:22. > :02:27.dare say most of them have been at one time or another but they are
:02:27. > :02:32.not staying there. There is not a sense of a coherent, for the
:02:32. > :02:36.functioning government with ministries operating. Let me just
:02:36. > :02:46.0.8 UN official who said, they need to be seen running the country from
:02:46. > :02:50.
:02:51. > :02:59.Tripoli and we have not seen it yet. -- let me just caught up a -- quote
:02:59. > :03:03.a minister. We are in transition. This was a very busy week as some
:03:03. > :03:10.of the officials were out of the country for meetings. There have
:03:10. > :03:13.been extensive consultations in Benghazi, Misrata. Other cities. I
:03:13. > :03:23.hope that you do not see these consultations as a witness. You
:03:23. > :03:25.
:03:25. > :03:29.should see them as a strength of the government. I think that the
:03:29. > :03:34.notion that there is no central government is inaccurate. It is
:03:35. > :03:41.dangerous. If you are looking for Central Command, Control the type
:03:41. > :03:46.that Gaddafi exercised, we had a revolution because we do not want
:03:46. > :03:51.that. What you have now our networks of people in touch with
:03:51. > :03:57.their localities. They are able to keep the country together and keep
:03:57. > :04:04.the main functions of government going. People do have electricity,
:04:04. > :04:09.water, basic health, schools have opened. I think we have to be fair
:04:09. > :04:13.with what is happening. No matter, I do not underestimate the
:04:13. > :04:22.infrastructure changes that have occurred in Tripoli, tTripoli, tes
:04:22. > :04:29.coming back. Here is what a Libyan political analyst has said, he has
:04:29. > :04:31.been writing a lot about the country. He says the current
:04:31. > :04:37.national transitional council lacks vision, legitimacy and power on the
:04:37. > :04:47.ground. Those who have legitimacy, he says, are by and large the
:04:47. > :04:50.
:04:50. > :04:59.people who actually fought in the war. I respect every Libyan's view.
:04:59. > :05:04.I feel the National Transitional Council has consensus of legitimacy,
:05:04. > :05:14.unprecedented - not since the time of the King have we seen a true
:05:14. > :05:14.
:05:14. > :05:24.national consensus. This can sense and is real. Legitimacy is provided
:05:24. > :05:37.
:05:37. > :05:41.by... Correct and this consensus is All of the Libyans who have worked
:05:41. > :05:48.so hard are part of the revolution. The legitimacy is ultimately be the
:05:48. > :05:51.Libyan people. Not with a subset of the Libyan people. I believe the
:05:51. > :05:56.National Transitional Council has that legitimacy. As for the power
:05:56. > :06:03.or underground, they are keeping the country together. Liberating
:06:03. > :06:13.one town, city after another. Libya is a large country and this is not
:06:13. > :06:13.
:06:13. > :06:21.an easy task... Left's talk about security, specifically. -- we will
:06:21. > :06:27.talk about. The security of the people and the ability to command
:06:27. > :06:36.and control security forces. This is about legitimacy in a sense that
:06:36. > :06:42.the National Transitional Council does not control the armed forces
:06:42. > :06:52.that fight in its name. We have seen in Bani Walid and other places
:06:52. > :06:54.
:06:54. > :07:03.that the command and control six with the thermometer. I do to --
:07:03. > :07:08.sit with different militia. I do not like that word. What is most
:07:08. > :07:16.important is that if you ask the young people who they are fighting
:07:16. > :07:22.for, they tell you they are fighting for Libya. They will tell
:07:22. > :07:27.you they are fighting for the NTC. You keep looking for the
:07:27. > :07:34.centralised army with a top down type of exertion of power, that is
:07:34. > :07:44.what the people revolted against. So long as everyone is fighting for
:07:44. > :07:45.
:07:45. > :07:55.the same cause, fighting for freedom. Hang on, let me stop you
:07:55. > :07:55.
:07:55. > :08:01.for a moment. Your assertion is interesting. Let me. -- let me
:08:01. > :08:07.referred to one person who has Islamist affiliations and has said
:08:07. > :08:11.that he opposes the involvement of so many Gaddafi officials at the
:08:11. > :08:16.top of the National Transitional Council. Of course, I have
:08:16. > :08:25.tremendous respect for these young man who led many battles for the
:08:25. > :08:31.freedom of the country. When you quote him you must understand he
:08:31. > :08:36.speaks as a commander in a group of young fighters and as such, he does
:08:36. > :08:45.a baby orders of the head of the National Transitional Council. --
:08:45. > :08:51.he does obey the orders. He also has another capacity, as they
:08:51. > :08:57.Libyan he is entitled to his opinion. He can have any opinion he
:08:57. > :09:07.likes. That is the duty, that is what we fought for. I do not like
:09:07. > :09:20.
:09:20. > :09:24.the use of these adjectives - is almost, -- Islamist, non- Islamist.
:09:24. > :09:29.We will talk about the idea of what is happening on the ground.
:09:29. > :09:33.Different elements of the military under the control of the National
:09:33. > :09:37.Transitional Council. We have seen commanders on the ground around
:09:37. > :09:47.Sirte, for example, where they want to finally take the town. They
:09:47. > :09:56.claim there is a lack of resources and an -- and ammunition. The
:09:56. > :10:06.question is, how long will it take to capture a or kill Gaddafi and
:10:06. > :10:08.
:10:08. > :10:18.take the town's? I do not like the word mop up and aggressive
:10:18. > :10:21.
:10:22. > :10:25.activities. The reason the campaigns are taking so long is
:10:25. > :10:30.that they recognise they are dealing with fellow Libyans. They
:10:30. > :10:38.are being incredibly patient, trying to negotiate their way into
:10:38. > :10:42.the towns. Asked the population to liberate itself rather than be
:10:42. > :10:49.invaded from the outside. No Libyan will accept that kind of position
:10:49. > :10:56.of will from fellow Libyans. We see these strategies working. Many
:10:56. > :11:03.people are either fleeing these cities where there are
:11:03. > :11:10.concentrations of the mercenaries who want to fight. We are seeing
:11:10. > :11:14.many towns to have liberated themselves in the south. Tens of
:11:14. > :11:24.towns. People focus on a couple of cases where we have difficulties
:11:24. > :11:34.but these difficult situations showed that people are being
:11:34. > :11:44.
:11:45. > :11:50.patient and prudent. All right, you came. -- team. The messages of
:11:50. > :11:56.defiance from Gaddafi are meaningless. Of course he will be
:11:56. > :12:03.annoying us from time to time but this annoyance does not amount to a
:12:03. > :12:13.real challenge to the sovereignty, integrity and unity of the beer. I
:12:13. > :12:17.
:12:17. > :12:27.would like to add that the chairman of the stabilisation team, they are
:12:27. > :12:33.
:12:33. > :12:41.working with hundreds and hundreds of Libyans. Why is it that many
:12:41. > :12:51.other weapons have been allowed to be stolen out of your stockpiles?
:12:51. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :13:01.You can try to God so many sites in such a vast area and you will see
:13:01. > :13:07.the challenge. -- you will try to guard. Libya is a vast country and
:13:07. > :13:15.our forces are quite small and also quite scattered. Would you with
:13:15. > :13:21.knowledge that you failed. In recent months BBC reporters have
:13:21. > :13:25.said that some of them are completely unguarded. Human Rights
:13:25. > :13:33.Watch says there is serious weaponry, the key ingredient for
:13:33. > :13:43.car bombs are out of the hands of authorities and in the hands of God
:13:43. > :13:45.
:13:45. > :13:51.knows who. There is such a thing as the fog of war. Given the limited
:13:51. > :13:57.resources, the scattered nature of the fighters, the vast country, the
:13:57. > :14:02.amazingly vast arsenals that up all over the place, unidentified, we
:14:02. > :14:12.have succeeded. If he would like to be cynical about it, of course you
:14:12. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:20.can call it a failure. It is a It is not a question of cynicism.
:14:21. > :14:25.It is just listening to other people who say that the amount of
:14:25. > :14:34.weapons in circulation a pose a threat to Europe and other nations.
:14:34. > :14:41.It is the case that many arsenals have been secured. You have to be
:14:41. > :14:47.fairer when you are judging to make sure that you are applying to do --
:14:47. > :14:54.applying resources to the situation at hand. We have talked a lot about
:14:54. > :15:01.legitimacy. Let us talk about future divisions in the politics of
:15:01. > :15:09.Libya. Dear accept that there is growing evidence of the Islamist
:15:09. > :15:19.frustration with post Gaddafi politics? In the divisive aged Jews
:15:19. > :15:27.
:15:27. > :15:31.are not helpful. -- adjectives. I would simply call it the Muslim
:15:31. > :15:37.Brotherhood. You run the risk of lumping together of all kinds of
:15:37. > :15:47.Islamic movements by just using one adjective to put them all together.
:15:47. > :15:54.
:15:54. > :15:58.The approach has to be new -- nuanced. This is a polyphony of
:15:58. > :16:08.voices. It is a mosaic tendency. The Muslim Brotherhood will be
:16:08. > :16:17.there and so will the rubles, the secularists and everybody else. --
:16:17. > :16:22.rebels. I take your point about caution. You are a theology
:16:22. > :16:26.academic and you have worked on inter-faith programmes around the
:16:26. > :16:34.world. For example, when there is a real discussion inside your country
:16:34. > :16:39.about the role of Sharia law, and we have seen demonstrations about
:16:39. > :16:48.this, what is your view of that? Do you think that is going to be
:16:48. > :16:55.something that will underpin a future Libya? The Libyan people are
:16:55. > :17:05.a Muslim people. The problem is that people often miss the point
:17:05. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:13.that Sharia law has many meanings. The traditional meaning in Libya is
:17:13. > :17:23.as a way to honour our Creator and living according to help create a's
:17:23. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:30.wishes for humanity. It is a way, a trajectory, and intentionality. It
:17:30. > :17:36.is the spirit of the law rather than a set of rules. Went Libyans
:17:36. > :17:46.long for Sharia law it is a longing for a spiritual path. I believe
:17:46. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :17:55.that -- When Libyans long for. It is not technical and legalistic. It
:17:56. > :18:03.should not do is make it should not be judged as such because that will
:18:03. > :18:08.oversimplify things. The military commander in Tripoli was a member
:18:08. > :18:17.of the Libyan Islamic fighting grid. That has cauat has cauttention to
:18:17. > :18:27.be focused on it in Washington. The that they arat they ard about
:18:27. > :18:38.
:18:39. > :18:44.Islamist influence in the Libyan revolution. -- fighting group.
:18:44. > :18:48.Libyans will be watchful of everyone and will watch for all
:18:48. > :18:52.tendencies. I can assure you that three things will never happen in
:18:52. > :19:00.big because of the diligence of young people. Corruption will never
:19:00. > :19:04.happen again. The overpowering of one tendency over all will never
:19:04. > :19:08.happen again and this is because of the will of the young people. They
:19:09. > :19:16.are very smart and well-informed and up-to-date. They will be able
:19:16. > :19:26.to watch this revolution to make sure it is not taken over by anyone.
:19:26. > :19:27.
:19:27. > :19:37.Everyone in Tripoli knows that the liberation of Tripoli happens when
:19:37. > :19:38.
:19:38. > :19:44.of the people rose up in every street of the capital. It was a
:19:44. > :19:50.collective effort. Dyno that because of al-Jazeera TV and
:19:50. > :19:58.particular angles there has been a focus on particular personalities -
:19:58. > :20:06.- I know that because of. But it was everyone's revolution. Everyone
:20:06. > :20:15.was a part of this revolution. I have respect for those who fought
:20:15. > :20:21.so hard for revolution and democracy. We want a unified and
:20:21. > :20:27.peaceful Libya. You have said you do not think this should be a witch
:20:27. > :20:32.hunt, purges or cleansing. But they must be justice. Certainly for the
:20:32. > :20:37.hundreds -- the families of the hundreds of victims found in mass
:20:37. > :20:47.graves. From the passage you are quoting, I
:20:47. > :20:47.
:20:47. > :20:57.also said there had to be just as. For giving us can only happen
:20:57. > :21:04.
:21:04. > :21:13.through consent. -- for giving -- forgiveness. In Islam, it is
:21:13. > :21:16.encouraged that you forgive but you can only do so after justice. We
:21:16. > :21:20.have been working with other international partners on
:21:20. > :21:28.transition issues ended is important that we as soon as
:21:28. > :21:37.possible put on trial the criminals with blood on their hands. What
:21:37. > :21:42.about those who are implicated in war crimes by forces loyal to the
:21:42. > :21:48.National Transitional Council, particularly against sub-Saharan
:21:48. > :21:53.Africans and black Libyans? Whoever has abused in the other a human
:21:53. > :21:57.being should be put on trial no matter what their affiliation is.
:21:57. > :22:03.Anybody who violate human rights should be put on trial even if he
:22:03. > :22:08.is an official or and governing... There are more then 2,000 people
:22:09. > :22:15.apparently in detention. How many of those are in detention and
:22:15. > :22:22.facing trial because of crimes committed on the side of the
:22:22. > :22:26.National Transitional Council? cannot give you see figures. By do
:22:26. > :22:33.not know them off the top of my head. I can tell you that several
:22:33. > :22:43.people have been arrested for committing violations after the
:22:43. > :22:53.revolution. Revolutionaries have no immunity. Whoever violates human
:22:53. > :22:53.
:22:53. > :23:03.rights, they will be put on trial. The very quickly, what about the
:23:03. > :23:07.
:23:07. > :23:11.question of oil and the economic reconstruction of Libya? Will
:23:11. > :23:20.France and the UK get a lot of contracts as the oil industry is
:23:20. > :23:25.opened up from your administration? I can tell you that the decision
:23:25. > :23:35.for awarding future contracts will be with the future elected
:23:35. > :23:36.
:23:36. > :23:40.government of Libya. There is a general policy of maintaining
:23:40. > :23:50.contracts, legitimate contracts... Will there be rewards for
:23:50. > :23:54.
:23:54. > :24:00.supporters of yours? Such decisions will be the decisions of the next
:24:00. > :24:06.government. My personal opinion: I believe that whoever helped us
:24:06. > :24:13.should have helped us for the good of humanity and for moral reasons.
:24:13. > :24:23.I do not think there should be any allotment of contracts based on the
:24:23. > :24:27.
:24:27. > :24:30.support of the Libyan people. I think this is very important.
:24:30. > :24:35.Whoever fought for the Libyan people should have done so for the
:24:36. > :24:45.sake of much higher values than material gain. Think you very much
:24:46. > :24:55.
:24:55. > :25:05.for joining us. for joining us.
:25:05. > :25:08.
:25:08. > :25:14.-- Thank you. Overnight we drank some more warm air up from the
:25:14. > :25:19.Continent. People will head to the seaside in droves. They could be
:25:19. > :25:25.some mist and low cloud developing, particularly through southern areas
:25:25. > :25:29.of the north Sea. They could be some low cloud. But a lot of
:25:29. > :25:37.sunshine to start the day across England. Scotland will start with a
:25:37. > :25:43.little cloud. It will break during the day. Showers will ease off. A
:25:43. > :25:50.fine, dry and mild start to the day for Northern Ireland. Some patchy
:25:50. > :25:59.mist or shallow for a round first thing that it will soon clear. In
:25:59. > :26:07.the south-west, another glorious start with lots of sunshine around.
:26:07. > :26:17.The only way is up! Very subtle changes through the day. The
:26:17. > :26:21.
:26:21. > :26:26.sunshine will come out. It will spread its way to the north-west.
:26:26. > :26:29.Heading through the night, we will start to see a weather front of
:26:29. > :26:39.making progress into Northern Ireland and western Scotland. It
:26:39. > :26:40.
:26:40. > :26:50.will bring outbreaks of rain. The East will be warm. The east of
:26:50. > :26:51.
:26:51. > :26:58.Scotland and most of England will stay with the warm conditions. On
:26:58. > :27:02.Friday, it is a repeat performance. Partly cloudy for western Scotland,
:27:02. > :27:10.outbreaks of rain for Northern Ireland and dry and sunny elsewhere.