:00:03. > :00:11.to help families. You can see his beach live here on BBC News. That's
:00:11. > :00:16.it from me for nine at -- -- that's it for me for now.
:00:16. > :00:20.It is time the HARDtalk. My guest today was instrumental in the
:00:20. > :00:25.development of a revolutionary new drug which has since transformed
:00:25. > :00:30.cow was women's lives, the oral contraceptive pill. Carl Djerassi's
:00:30. > :00:34.side to victory made him a fortune but also prompted ethical and moral
:00:34. > :00:38.questions which he has addressed in a series of novels and plays. How
:00:38. > :00:48.far should we allow science to redefine the process of
:00:48. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:19.Carl Djerassi, welcome to HARDtalk. Let me begin by taking you back to
:01:19. > :01:24.the late 1940s and early 1950s. You were elan scientist working in a
:01:24. > :01:30.laboratory on hormones. I wonder if at that time you appreciated the
:01:30. > :01:37.significance of what you were working on. I am a chemist, not a
:01:37. > :01:46.biologist. I was aware of the chemical significance. The answer
:01:46. > :01:50.is no. Nobody could have. 11 years later after we synthesised it in
:01:50. > :01:54.1951 it was introduced on the market. Neither the companies nor
:01:54. > :02:00.the physician's nor the public expected it. We did not realise how
:02:00. > :02:10.quickly it would be used. Within two years about 2 million women in
:02:10. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:14.the US were using it. It was not really a campaign. At that time
:02:14. > :02:21.birth control, contraception was not even on the radar of
:02:21. > :02:26.pharmaceutical companies or in the public. It was just after the war.
:02:26. > :02:32.People wanted to have children rather than the other way round.
:02:32. > :02:37.be very basic about it, the idea of the contraceptive pill and then, as
:02:37. > :02:47.it was commercially developed through the 1950s and 60s, was to
:02:47. > :02:52.
:02:53. > :02:57.stop women ovulating. Not quite. In 1957 it was allowed for infertility
:02:57. > :03:06.and menstrual irregularities. Some women were not producing enough
:03:06. > :03:11.progesterone. It is also necessary for the proper maintenance for the
:03:11. > :03:16.uterus environment for the foetus to develop. If women do not produce
:03:16. > :03:22.enough progesterone after they are pregnant they will suffer at an
:03:22. > :03:25.abortion. Treatment of infertility and mental disorder were the uses.
:03:25. > :03:29.That was 1957. Only three years later was it approve the
:03:29. > :03:35.contraception. And when that happened it was because that was
:03:35. > :03:41.the effect it had. Stopping of elation. I just wonder whether, as
:03:41. > :03:45.you saw your initial breakthroughs turn into the reality of a pill
:03:46. > :03:52.which could be taken by a woman to control her fidelity in a new way,
:03:52. > :04:02.a guaranteed way, whether you were delighted. -- control her fertility.
:04:02. > :04:08.
:04:08. > :04:16.Yes. I think it was the right time. It was a man in the 1920s who
:04:16. > :04:20.predicted all of this. He wrote an extraordinary book in 1931 and then
:04:20. > :04:30.he committed suicide in 1932 because of the position of the
:04:30. > :04:38.
:04:38. > :04:44.Conservative circles and the church at that time. He talked about the
:04:44. > :04:50.temporary of women. The 1960s were the decade of the rock'n'roll,
:04:50. > :04:57.hippy culture. It was the real flowering of the women's movement.
:04:57. > :05:02.It was at a time when abortion was illegal. The women's movement was
:05:02. > :05:09.different from the other movements. It involved a certain amount of
:05:09. > :05:19.sexual liberation. Certainly not the sort of Victorian behaviour
:05:19. > :05:26.that people encouraged or pretended to follow. In a way it was
:05:26. > :05:32.divorcing sexuality and the sexual act from procreation. Not yet. That
:05:32. > :05:36.is the situation now. At that time it was simply having sex without
:05:36. > :05:45.having to worry about the consequences. Remember it was
:05:45. > :05:50.unwanted pregnancies that enforced the sexual mores. The shotgun
:05:50. > :05:57.marriages if somebody got pregnant. They both felt they had to get
:05:57. > :06:01.married. The way -- the word a liberation was necessary. I wonder
:06:01. > :06:08.when you look at the world today, and here we are many years later,
:06:08. > :06:13.60 years after this breakthrough, and you look around and you see,
:06:13. > :06:21.and I think the WHO has estimated that 100 million women are on the
:06:21. > :06:31.kill at any given time, I wonder whether you feel have your hopes
:06:31. > :06:34.
:06:34. > :06:38.come to fruition? Yes they have. But I wonder about your question.
:06:39. > :06:44.Do you mean if that was the motivation for making the compound?
:06:44. > :06:52.The answer is no. I just wonder if you saw where your breakthrough was
:06:52. > :06:57.going. The answer is still no. The term population explosion came
:06:57. > :07:01.about in the 1960s. That was of international, global consequences.
:07:01. > :07:11.It sounded horrendous and it is in fact horrendous. If you look at me,
:07:11. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:22.I am unique. During my lifetime the population multiplied by it four.
:07:22. > :07:27.That is impossible now. We will not have 32 million people from 8
:07:27. > :07:36.million ever again. From 2 billion at two 8 billion in a person's
:07:36. > :07:41.lifetime has never happened before. It is fascinating. Eva put it in
:07:41. > :07:44.terms of the implications of the contraceptive pill for democratic -
:07:44. > :07:50.- demographics. Some of the countries which are the poorest of
:07:50. > :07:56.the world where the population is rising at the fastest rate...
:07:56. > :08:00.Nigeria, Pakistan... Ethiopia... And others, it is interesting that
:08:00. > :08:06.in many of these countries the use of the contraceptive pill is very,
:08:06. > :08:11.very low. Not only the altogether. That is true in some
:08:11. > :08:19.cases. Not in some cases. That is exactly the situation in these
:08:19. > :08:24.countries. For example in Ethiopia 14% of women use some kind of
:08:24. > :08:33.contraception but only 3% use the contraceptive pill. That is quite a
:08:33. > :08:37.number. That is about one-third of the people. Less than a quarter.
:08:37. > :08:43.Yes, but there are why do you think that is? What do you think of the
:08:43. > :08:47.contraceptive pill used in the US and the UK? Take the United States.
:08:47. > :08:52.Where most people practise birth control at one time or another.
:08:52. > :09:02.Less than 30% use it. The most popular method of birth control in
:09:02. > :09:05.
:09:05. > :09:12.the United States... In in China about 5% use the contraceptive pill.
:09:12. > :09:19.If you think that is a low figure, I can give you Algeria. 44% of its
:09:19. > :09:22.use it. That sounds like a lot, but still, it is one of the methods.
:09:22. > :09:29.People think we need new methods of birth control. Think about Japan
:09:29. > :09:33.which is still one of the worst ones. And yet they have one of the
:09:34. > :09:38.lowest birthrate. It is the all this country in the world as a
:09:38. > :09:45.result. I think you should focus on software. What do you mean?
:09:45. > :09:53.Hardware is the method one uses whether it is abortion, are you
:09:53. > :09:58.Dees, abstinence, whatever. Soap where -- software, legal, cultural
:09:58. > :10:04.issues. That is where the action is. Take eastern European countries.
:10:04. > :10:11.The Soviet Union until about 1990, where contraception even to the
:10:11. > :10:17.state is horrible. Abortion was the method of birth control in Japan
:10:17. > :10:20.from 1945 until about 1965. It is still used. I think it is a
:10:20. > :10:24.motivation that is important. you're talking motivation and
:10:24. > :10:29.social attitudes, then it does raise the question of religion.
:10:29. > :10:34.Among other things. I began by asking you as a young men when you
:10:34. > :10:40.were working on the is whether you were aware of the huge arena in
:10:40. > :10:44.which you were entering. Revision is a part of that. Very much.
:10:44. > :10:49.we found was the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope in particular
:10:49. > :10:54.making declarations, saying that the contraceptive pill was
:10:54. > :11:01.absolutely contrary... And look at what happened as a result. It had
:11:01. > :11:09.the worst side effect, not medical ones, but the secularisation of
:11:09. > :11:16.religion and the number of women in this case who decided to violate
:11:16. > :11:19.one of the real terms of the Church, ignore it. Latin America has the
:11:19. > :11:26.highest proportion of illegal abortions. These are the
:11:26. > :11:33.consequences. Ireland was an exception until fairly recently.
:11:33. > :11:41.What happens in Ireland does not matter. It had no particular effect.
:11:41. > :11:46.The Church prevents condom use. The Pope's went to Africa and said you
:11:46. > :11:53.should not use condoms. That is an interesting point about condoms and
:11:53. > :12:01.reflecting on the context of Aids in Africa. If more women were on
:12:01. > :12:07.Saharan Africa they may feel less inclined to use and encourage them
:12:07. > :12:14.men to use condoms. The condom is a barrier method. Absolutely.
:12:14. > :12:20.prevent the spread of disease. You are moving on to fast.
:12:20. > :12:29.appearance of Aids in the 1980s changed sexual behaviour enormously
:12:29. > :12:34.in certain circles, not in southern Africa. With the university
:12:34. > :12:43.students for example there was a lot more sweeping around between
:12:43. > :12:49.1960 and 1980 than between 1980 and 2010. What if the Pill had never
:12:49. > :12:55.been developed, what would sex be like now? It would be just about
:12:55. > :13:00.the same. It really would be. The pill has not caused the sexual
:13:00. > :13:10.revolution of the 1960s. It has greatly facilitated it. You would
:13:10. > :13:11.
:13:11. > :13:15.have had hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of abortions.
:13:15. > :13:20.Sexual behaviour now would be the same. When we talk about these
:13:20. > :13:24.fertility issues, things are changing very fast. We talk a lot
:13:24. > :13:29.about the 1960s and the role of the contraceptive pill in women's
:13:29. > :13:35.liberation. Let's move on to a much more current debate, in
:13:35. > :13:39.industrialised nations, which is not so much about contraception,
:13:39. > :13:48.but about delivering concepts and delivering it in the way that suits
:13:48. > :13:52.women in particular best of. It is a real turn about in this debate.
:13:52. > :13:59.Yes. But this went completely parallel with the changes in the
:13:59. > :14:02.role of women. In my lifetime, in the last 40 years, take the UK. A
:14:02. > :14:11.pretty misogynous country compared to other countries. Do you think
:14:11. > :14:15.so? Absolutely. I will give you one demonstration. Until about 1990,
:14:15. > :14:25.this was the only industrialised country in which I did not know of
:14:25. > :14:29.
:14:29. > :14:36.a single woman professor in any UK country. -- in any UK university.
:14:36. > :14:41.Let's bring it back to the issue of fertility. Making a career is
:14:41. > :14:48.difficult for women in the academic sphere. They want to make sure that
:14:48. > :14:53.bearing children does not interfere with their career ambitions. In one
:14:53. > :15:02.way you are right. The academic situation for women in the UK has
:15:02. > :15:07.changed very rapidly in the last 15 years because it was so bad before.
:15:07. > :15:13.That is true of professional women not only in the UK, but in the US
:15:13. > :15:20.and other countries, educated women who moved into positions from which
:15:20. > :15:27.they were excluded. Postpone child- bearing. This is the way. I want to
:15:27. > :15:33.get to. Not now, but later. A young man in his 20s would not even think
:15:33. > :15:43.about it. He will say, I will do it later. Because biologically he can.
:15:43. > :15:43.
:15:43. > :15:50.The women ignore the fact do not think about the fact by 35 they
:15:50. > :16:00.have lost most of their eggs. They are ageing rapidly. The difference
:16:00. > :16:01.
:16:01. > :16:06.between 35 and 40 is much bigger You have written about this a lot.
:16:06. > :16:16.The question is to what extent these industrialised countries are
:16:16. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:23.coming to rely on in vitro fertilisation to give women more
:16:23. > :16:31.choice over when to be pregnant. was one of the first ones to offer
:16:32. > :16:39.this in a play. It was called the immaculate in conception. That is
:16:39. > :16:45.where I predicted this. It is only in the last couple of years the
:16:45. > :16:50.technology for freezing eggs has developed so you can, not guarantee,
:16:51. > :16:58.but maybe in another ten years guarantee, young women soon be able
:16:58. > :17:02.to freeze their eggs so if they do not have a child in the usual way
:17:02. > :17:07.before she is 35 she can use her own eggs. Are you suggesting there
:17:07. > :17:11.would be a good thing? It is an option women are entitled to
:17:11. > :17:17.because men do not have to concern themselves with this. I am not
:17:17. > :17:27.saying they should do this or not. You are a sign says. There are some
:17:27. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:33.facts which cannot be ignored -- ciders. -- scientist. A publication
:17:33. > :17:41.said it leads to serious birth defects. It does not. It is
:17:41. > :17:47.irrelevant to what I have said. IBF was discovered in England in 1977.
:17:47. > :17:52.4 million people were born without sexual intercourse by that point.
:17:52. > :17:58.90% of them were people with fertility problems who could not
:17:58. > :18:04.have children otherwise and therefore used this method. The
:18:04. > :18:14.majority were older women. But they had no choice because they had no
:18:14. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:22.other way. I am talking about women... I am talking about IVF for
:18:22. > :18:29.fertile people. For the ones we were talking about, the chance of
:18:29. > :18:36.some people was only 10%. This is a different population group. We saw
:18:36. > :18:40.Lord Winston saying he worries that too often the proper motive of
:18:40. > :18:46.private clinics is driving the popularity of this procedure for
:18:46. > :18:52.women. He Warriors this will actually not be telling the truth
:18:52. > :18:56.to women -- worries. He is correct. He is talking about a given
:18:56. > :19:03.population group. He is talking about people suffering from in
:19:03. > :19:09.fertility and have no choice. Now you can push that further with new
:19:09. > :19:16.technology. But I am talking about fertile people who in their early
:19:16. > :19:23.20s, for insurance, freeze their eggs. That will remove the need for
:19:23. > :19:31.contraception. If you guarantee it, and can freeze your eggs, put them
:19:31. > :19:37.in the bank, anything that is sterilise can be used. It is a
:19:37. > :19:42.fascinating picture of a future you are painting. It brings me to a
:19:43. > :19:47.thought you had when you rose this play about the immaculate
:19:47. > :19:57.misconception. You talk about the divorce of sex and reproduction. I
:19:57. > :19:58.
:19:58. > :20:02.wonder whether this direction is worrying for the species? How?
:20:02. > :20:06.Everything we take for granted about relationships and the
:20:06. > :20:16.Association of reproduction and last thing loving relationships
:20:16. > :20:28.
:20:28. > :20:32.come into question. I disagree with the 100%. -- you. Firstly, a child
:20:32. > :20:42.is a cement for a relationship between husband and wife for two
:20:42. > :20:48.partners. Think about the number I quoted. 50% of all conceptions are
:20:48. > :20:55.unexpected and another 50% are unwanted. 25% of all natural
:20:55. > :21:01.conceptions which you romanticised as a wonderful family that I would
:21:01. > :21:11.destroy... And have 50 million abortions a year as a result of
:21:11. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:16.this. I am talking about where a couple have lots of sex but only
:21:17. > :21:21.1.5 children, often less than two children per family. There would be
:21:21. > :21:25.no abortion. They have the child when the two of them are ready.
:21:25. > :21:33.That is a nuclear family that is much better than the one he talked
:21:33. > :21:38.about. That is one scenario but in your world which routinely young
:21:38. > :21:47.people are putting their sperm or eggs into a freezer and opening
:21:47. > :21:53.options for what they do with those in the future... There are so many
:21:53. > :22:03.possibilities for relationships and shopping around for designer babies
:22:03. > :22:04.
:22:04. > :22:11.of the future. You do not base a decision on who to take for sperm
:22:11. > :22:16.donation on romance. The woman puts her eight in the bank and the man
:22:16. > :22:26.puts his firm in the bank. -- egg. They are the only ones to have the
:22:26. > :22:32.right to use them. You have a famous case of a woman who's
:22:32. > :22:37.husband died and she asked to use his sperm. He had not given written
:22:37. > :22:44.permission to use his sperm before he died and the case was dismissed.
:22:44. > :22:54.That is no more shocking then you looking for a wife. You are not
:22:54. > :22:55.
:22:55. > :23:02.shopping for an egg. Money is a factor. You have made a lot of
:23:02. > :23:07.money as if your career. I wonder whether money and scientific IDO is
:23:07. > :23:12.increasingly playing a role and whether we can trust scientists to
:23:12. > :23:18.do the right thing in these profoundly important times?
:23:18. > :23:23.started by saying should we allow science to do this or that. But
:23:23. > :23:30.people decide whether they want to use that technology or not. This is
:23:30. > :23:39.about whether we can trust our scientists. You can trust them. You
:23:39. > :23:44.cannot trust them any more than anyone else. What is it about
:23:44. > :23:48.scientists you feel you cannot trust? The power of scientists is
:23:48. > :23:54.more profound. We have talked a lot about the Pill. You were
:23:55. > :23:59.responsible for having developed something that has a family