:00:09. > :00:15.mistakes. Right now, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:19.South Africa's constitution is coming under mounting pressure.
:00:19. > :00:25.Politicians are warning of the judges not to defy the will of the
:00:25. > :00:28.people. Where does that leave the independence of the judiciary? My
:00:28. > :00:33.guess -- guest today is well placed to judge. In a legal career
:00:33. > :00:38.spanning six decades, George Bizos defended Nelson Mandela and a host
:00:38. > :00:42.of other ANC leaders. He helped draft the post-apartheid
:00:42. > :00:52.constitution. Extraordinary achievements. Are they now under
:00:52. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:16.threat? George Bizos, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:16. > :01:19.Thank you. It is a pleasure to have you here. You have played an
:01:19. > :01:23.extraordinary role in South Africa's modern history. If we go
:01:23. > :01:33.back to the beginning, would it be fair to say he became South African
:01:33. > :01:41.by chance? Absolutely. I was a 13- year-old refugee when I was taken
:01:41. > :01:48.from Egypt which was in danger of being conquered. You're taking it
:01:48. > :01:53.to Egypt by the British because you had to flee from the actual home in
:01:53. > :01:59.Greece? Yes. In order to help the soldiers that were trapped in
:01:59. > :02:09.Greece to escape from the Nazi occupation. They brought us to
:02:09. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:15.South Africa and waited to Egypt. But being a refugee once was enough.
:02:15. > :02:22.So there you were, in a strange new country thousands of miles from
:02:22. > :02:27.your homeland and within a decade or so, you had got a great
:02:27. > :02:33.education, you trained as a lawyer, to also seemed to have developed
:02:33. > :02:41.this burning commitment to human rights? I wonder where that
:02:42. > :02:48.commitment as a young man came from? I was radicalised in South
:02:48. > :02:56.Africa when I went to the University in Johannesburg. Most of
:02:56. > :03:05.the student body in 1948 had fought in the war and either postponed or
:03:06. > :03:11.delayed their studies. They were faced together with us, a minority
:03:11. > :03:19.elected government that did not support the war and introduced
:03:19. > :03:24.apartheid. The student body was up in arms. Both with the university
:03:24. > :03:34.authorities and the Government. This was not what they had fought
:03:34. > :03:39.
:03:39. > :03:44.for. Among West -- among my cohort was Nelson Mandela. What were your
:03:44. > :03:52.first impressions of him? How did you then come to be part of his
:03:52. > :03:58.defence team in those amazing days of the early 60s? He was a figure
:03:58. > :04:04.as a student no different to what the world has come to know of them.
:04:04. > :04:13.He was immaculately dressed, he was fearless, he was very articulate
:04:13. > :04:18.and spoke about a part tied and the regime and the unfairness of the
:04:18. > :04:26.treatment of the few black students at the University. We became
:04:26. > :04:34.friends. Was it clear to you even then that this man had something
:04:34. > :04:44.very special? Absolutely. Were you saying to yourself, I want to
:04:44. > :04:52.
:04:52. > :05:02.follow him? It was not a conscious decision. There were other black
:05:02. > :05:03.
:05:03. > :05:06.students and in the Faculty, particularly in medicine, and they
:05:06. > :05:13.were a powerful group to put pressure on the university
:05:13. > :05:23.authorities and had an effect on the student body as a whole.
:05:23. > :05:23.
:05:23. > :05:27.ended up in 1964 being an important member of the Mandela defence. I
:05:27. > :05:35.would like to quote you some of the very famous words Mandela came out
:05:35. > :05:41.with the end of the trial. I believe it was before sentencing.
:05:41. > :05:51.He talked of, "a struggle for the right to live. An ideal of a
:05:51. > :05:52.
:05:52. > :05:57.democratic free society for which I am prepared to die." they are
:05:57. > :06:02.amazing words. I wonder if you as one of his lawyers had a hand in
:06:02. > :06:12.putting them together? There is a long story here. Putting it --
:06:12. > :06:15.
:06:15. > :06:22.giving evidence in the treason trial, he gave lengthy evidence. We
:06:22. > :06:32.were guided as a team about what he would say. Contrary to the belief
:06:32. > :06:42.of many South Africans that a black man could not have put this speech
:06:42. > :06:43.
:06:43. > :06:50.together, it was a team effort. I am credited by one of the lawyer's
:06:50. > :06:55.of having contributed three words to that last paragraph. What were
:06:55. > :07:04.they? When he says that he was prepared to die, on the morning
:07:04. > :07:13.before he delivered it, I said our like to suggest an amendment. I
:07:13. > :07:23.said, just put the words, "If needs be." what was the significance? I
:07:23. > :07:24.
:07:24. > :07:28.did not want to suggest that he was seeking martyrdom. I said, you want
:07:29. > :07:32.to live and see established what you have fought for your life.
:07:32. > :07:42.trial and what the ANC was about at that time raises a big question for
:07:42. > :07:44.
:07:44. > :07:47.me. The ANC decided that such was the difficulty of the resistance
:07:47. > :07:52.struggle and the import for the people of South Africa that they
:07:52. > :07:56.would engage in arms struggle as well as resistance by peaceful
:07:56. > :08:02.means. Than raised all sorts of questions about the difference
:08:02. > :08:09.between a freedom fighter and a terrorist. Can you define for me
:08:09. > :08:19.what you believe is the threshold of oppression beyond which you can
:08:19. > :08:24.
:08:24. > :08:34.call yourself a freedom fighter? Laws which are or prohibiting any
:08:34. > :08:34.
:08:35. > :08:40.activity within the human rights area or should appear as a last
:08:40. > :08:47.resort -- should as a last resort be disobeyed. There is a difference
:08:47. > :08:57.between terrorism and legitimate resistance with elements of
:08:57. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:06.violence. The ANC unequivocally adopted the idea that every care
:09:06. > :09:10.should be taken that they should not be a loss of human life. So in
:09:10. > :09:17.your views -- in your view, the action that the ANC took was
:09:17. > :09:26.legitimate? There were legitimate as a last resort against a -- an
:09:26. > :09:33.oppressive regime. For over 50 years, we have been knocking on the
:09:33. > :09:37.door of the dead without any response. We have adopted this not
:09:37. > :09:45.for the purposes of overthrowing the state by violence but to show
:09:45. > :09:51.that the situation can't continue and we hope for a peaceful
:09:51. > :09:54.settlement to end the oppression and the violence. From the 50s to
:09:54. > :10:01.the present day you have been a lawyer and you have always worked
:10:01. > :10:07.for Human Rights. Did you at any point take the decision to formally
:10:07. > :10:15.joined the ANC? I never joined the ANC for a technical reason. If you
:10:15. > :10:23.become a member of a political organisation, you can't act for it.
:10:23. > :10:33.In court. Was your heart ANC? Absolutely. Unapologetically.
:10:33. > :10:39.
:10:39. > :10:45.Still? Yes. Unapologetically. I support the policies of the ANC.
:10:45. > :10:51.would like to talk about some of their reservations. You will one of
:10:52. > :10:57.the advisers on the work to draft the constitution which is seen
:10:57. > :11:02.around the world as a model of transparency and human rights. But
:11:02. > :11:06.there are many senior figures inside the ANC movement today who
:11:06. > :11:09.are putting extraordinary pressure on that constitution and suggesting
:11:09. > :11:19.that it is inadequate to deliver justice for the black majority in
:11:19. > :11:20.
:11:20. > :11:27.South Africa. There are two groups of critics of the constitution. The
:11:27. > :11:30.one that you mentioned and another consisting of privileged whites who
:11:30. > :11:36.do not distinguish between fundamental human rights and
:11:36. > :11:46.privileges. For the majority of people in the national executive of
:11:46. > :11:52.
:11:52. > :11:55.the ANC, there is a centre which does not support those few in the
:11:55. > :12:01.African National Congress to make adverse remarks every time they
:12:01. > :12:06.lose a case. I can quote some adverse remarks. I'm not convinced
:12:06. > :12:10.that these are just out riders because these are important people.
:12:10. > :12:14.The Secretary General for example says that the courts today in South
:12:14. > :12:24.Africa are acting as an oppositional and counter
:12:24. > :12:28.
:12:28. > :12:32.revolutionary force. I remember that well. The 4th -- former Chief
:12:32. > :12:38.Justice and I made a public statement that the Secretary
:12:39. > :12:45.General did not represent the spirit of the African National
:12:45. > :12:55.people. But he is the Secretary General. But he made that statement
:12:55. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :13:02.as a result of pressure. There are many people like him. For example,
:13:02. > :13:09.we had a deputy police minister questioning the integrity of white
:13:09. > :13:15.judges and magistrates. You can't become a deputy commissioner of
:13:15. > :13:22.police and not be an interpreter or of policy of the majority party in
:13:22. > :13:27.parliament. All these people who make these statements, the centre
:13:27. > :13:34.of the legal profession, the judges can't respond but we can. Every
:13:34. > :13:38.time such a statement is made, we go on record that this is not the
:13:38. > :13:45.constitution that we fought for and they have no right to make such
:13:45. > :13:52.remarks. Let me take it to the very top. Let's talk about the leader of
:13:52. > :13:59.your country. He said that once government has decided on the
:13:59. > :14:09.appropriate policy, the judiciary can't raise that as an opportunity
:14:09. > :14:12.
:14:12. > :14:17.to change policy. He is clearly We do not judge the policy. You can
:14:17. > :14:22.have whatever policy you want, with one proviso, that it is not -- that
:14:22. > :14:25.it does not contravene any of the fundamental rights guaranteed by
:14:25. > :14:31.the Bill of Rights in the constitution. He then explains
:14:32. > :14:40.himself. This is the problem with politicians. They make statements
:14:41. > :14:49.in public in order to be applauded by the audience. It is populism,
:14:49. > :14:54.isn't it? I wonder if you feel that he himself has a tendency to go in
:14:54. > :14:59.that direction. How do you feel about him appointing a new chief
:14:59. > :15:08.justice, it had to many a human rights lawyers, does not represent
:15:08. > :15:13.the majority of South African thinking it? I agree with that. I
:15:13. > :15:18.served 15 years on the Commission for the appointing a former Chief
:15:18. > :15:24.Justices and judges in the various courts. Let's be blunt done. What
:15:24. > :15:34.do you think about the appointment of the new Chief Justice? I have
:15:34. > :15:35.
:15:35. > :15:41.reservations, but, you know, I use the biblical - I am told, I had not
:15:41. > :15:45.read it myself - the apostle Paul said, there were a lot of quarrels
:15:45. > :15:53.about the appointment of bishops and he said, once a bishop has been
:15:53. > :15:58.a pointed, you must kneel and say, he has been appointed to last. What
:15:58. > :16:07.gives me confidence about the judiciary, despite the appointment
:16:07. > :16:17.of a comparatively experienced judge as the Chief Justice, there
:16:17. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:26.are nine and soon a tenth, judges. Even though he may have been
:16:26. > :16:34.perceived, including by me, has not the ideal person to be appointed.
:16:34. > :16:43.Nevertheless, I have confidence. The other nine judges that are
:16:43. > :16:48.there already are sufficiently strong to hold the ship on its
:16:48. > :16:51.course. You think that particular part of the checks and balances
:16:51. > :16:56.system in South Africa can withstand the pressure. What about
:16:56. > :16:59.one more, in brief, the media. We are seeing a protection of
:16:59. > :17:03.Information Bill being pushed by the Government, which would
:17:03. > :17:06.introduce draconian punishments for journalists who leak, or use a
:17:06. > :17:10.leaked government documents. They can be put in jail for 25 years,
:17:10. > :17:14.what you think about that? I am completely against it. I have
:17:14. > :17:22.condemned it, whenever I had been given an opportunity to speak in
:17:22. > :17:27.public. I think that those that are pushing the built in its current
:17:27. > :17:30.form must have consulted some clever colleague of mine that
:17:30. > :17:36.advise them, if they push it through, the constitutional court
:17:37. > :17:42.is likely to declare it unconstitutional. It has been on
:17:42. > :17:52.the paper of for over two years. They have now taking it off for the
:17:52. > :17:52.
:17:52. > :17:55.rest of the year. The Centre is holding. How long for, though? It
:17:55. > :17:59.seems to me that there is a profound anger among some in South
:18:00. > :18:04.Africa, particularly among the younger generation of black people,
:18:04. > :18:08.we still see the gross inequity in the country. They see the lack of
:18:08. > :18:16.housing, the fundamental lack of jobs. They also see the very rich,
:18:16. > :18:21.small percentage of people, at the top of society. A recent guest on
:18:21. > :18:27.HARDTalk expressed his anger on terms that many South Africans
:18:27. > :18:37.regard as populist and may be dangerous and divisive. I agree
:18:37. > :18:43.with that. But he is president of the ANC Youth League, which
:18:43. > :18:48.challenges your idea that all these people are truly insignificant.
:18:48. > :18:53.There is a difference between the North African sort of situation,
:18:53. > :19:03.that people who are protesting we had different ideas or are either
:19:03. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:15.ignored. This does not happen in South Africa. There are bodies such
:19:15. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:25.as the Human Rights Commission, the protector of the people's rights.
:19:25. > :19:29.There are numerous non-governmental organisations, like the one I am
:19:30. > :19:36.working for. Which you would Ardo are still part of the checks and
:19:36. > :19:39.balances? Yes. It strikes me that it is not about institutions, it is
:19:39. > :19:44.about individuals. It brings me back to Nelson Mandela. You still
:19:44. > :19:49.see him, you are one of his greatest long-standing friends. Do
:19:49. > :19:57.you wish, believe, that Mandela should speak out about the dangers
:19:57. > :20:04.to the constitution, to the balance of powers? He has withdrawn from
:20:04. > :20:10.private life. I know... After an early stage, when he did not stand
:20:11. > :20:18.for a second term, he had to say over and over again when he was
:20:18. > :20:24.asked to intervene - he had a simple question, go and ask Mike
:20:24. > :20:34.President. -- simple answer. He did not want to be a Court of Appeal
:20:34. > :20:39.for the Government that was duly elected. But that begs a question,
:20:39. > :20:49.is he out of sympathy with the current president, do you believe?
:20:49. > :20:49.
:20:49. > :20:57.He refuses to comment. He has only once seriously condemned the
:20:57. > :21:04.Government, with good result. That was on the question of Aids. When
:21:05. > :21:09.the policy was enunciated by the President. He condemned it in no
:21:09. > :21:14.uncertain terms over personal feelings. It was after what he
:21:14. > :21:19.considered catastrophic results as a result of this sort of negative
:21:20. > :21:26.policy in relation to trade and or acknowledgement of the size of the
:21:26. > :21:31.problem. -- treatment. He has not spoken out since then, in a
:21:31. > :21:40.political way. I tell you somebody who has and it is, in a sense
:21:40. > :21:44.continuing the theme about the power and struggle in the
:21:44. > :21:48.liberation of the country, Desmond Tutu. As you know, in the last few
:21:48. > :21:53.days, he has said the most passionate things about his
:21:53. > :22:01.concerns about today's south Africa. He says, as a result of them
:22:01. > :22:04.blocking the Dalai Lama coming to his 80th birthday party at, he said
:22:04. > :22:07.this, all the people involved in the liberation struggle must be
:22:08. > :22:17.turning in a grey today. He warned that, South Africans will one day
:22:17. > :22:27.pray for the fall of the ANC. will inevitably do so. I agree with
:22:27. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:42.the Archbishop, whom I personally consider one of my friends. He is a
:22:42. > :22:46.man that I admire. I am not taking him by the excuses of the
:22:46. > :22:53.Government -- taking in. What I would say is I was late in applying
:22:53. > :22:58.for my visa to the UK by only two days, when I noticed that my
:22:58. > :23:03.previous visa had expired. And you still got in? To be clear, you are
:23:03. > :23:08.saying that the Dalai Lama was refused entry because South Africa
:23:08. > :23:14.is friends with China? I have no doubt that it paid in important
:23:14. > :23:18.role. I think many of us should hold our heads down in Shane...
:23:18. > :23:24.What does this say about the present-day South Africa? A country
:23:24. > :23:34.that was born out of struggle should appreciate human rights more
:23:34. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:39.than any other. Is it South Africa, always the deputy minister? Was he
:23:39. > :23:42.told that it would be bad for trade between China and South Africa?
:23:43. > :23:48.question is, where are the next generation of people to speak out
:23:48. > :23:50.about this? Never mind Desmond Tutu or George Bizos, where are the next
:23:50. > :24:00.generation of leaders who will stand up to the direction it is
:24:00. > :24:08.
:24:08. > :24:12.taking? ISP to audiences of young students regularly. Mr Malema does
:24:12. > :24:20.not refute -- represent the vast majority of people in South Africa.