:00:03. > :00:12.defectors in one town. Those are the headlines. Now it is
:00:12. > :00:16.time for HARDtalk. There has been no flowering of a
:00:17. > :00:21.political Spring in China. The revolutionary fervour in the Middle
:00:21. > :00:26.East seems to have prompted a new crackdown on dissidents in Beijing.
:00:26. > :00:31.But just how repressive is the Chinese government and how much the
:00:31. > :00:36.Western governments care? My guests today, Bob Fu, is the former
:00:36. > :00:40.student activist who runs the US- based Christian group, China Aid.
:00:40. > :00:50.How well do we understand what is happening inside the world's rise
:00:50. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:16.Bob Fu, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me. After the Arab
:01:16. > :01:21.Spring burst into life the earlier this year, there was plenty of
:01:21. > :01:29.speculation that political protests and demonstrations would spread to
:01:29. > :01:33.Beijing, to turn. It did not happen. Why? The Chinese political
:01:33. > :01:39.activists or dissidents were preparing to do something. They
:01:39. > :01:45.were encouraged by the courageous acts in the Arab world and by the
:01:45. > :01:52.citizens axe. And unfortunately, the Chinese government took
:01:52. > :02:02.unprecedented crackdown procedures with this panicked mood. They
:02:02. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:09.basically pre-empted the kidnapped -- pre-empted the axe and kidnapped
:02:09. > :02:15.people and even cracked down on certain churches across the board.
:02:15. > :02:19.I read about arrests in Beijing. We saw dozens of human rights lawyers
:02:19. > :02:24.arrested, very high profile figures like Ai Weiwei who were taken into
:02:24. > :02:29.detention, but are you suggesting this was beyond Beijing? This was a
:02:29. > :02:37.national systematic repression? is. It is not only happening in
:02:37. > :02:42.Beijing. We have no use in other areas picked up and kidnapped. One
:02:42. > :02:52.particular lawyer has only been released after six or seven months.
:02:52. > :03:00.
:03:00. > :03:03.We have people in other provinces having a certain elements crackdown
:03:03. > :03:08.on. Human rights lawyers seem to have a bore the brunt of things in
:03:08. > :03:13.the last few months. You eluded to a crackdown on the unofficial
:03:13. > :03:17.Chinese Christian churches. It seems to me that what the Chinese
:03:17. > :03:26.udderly at the moment is directed at political dissidents, not that
:03:26. > :03:32.religion, Christianity. The Chinese persecution does indeed target
:03:32. > :03:38.political dissidents but at the same time the underground, the
:03:38. > :03:46.unofficial churches, are also being targeted. It may not be related
:03:46. > :03:51.purely to the Arab Spring but the fact that the past has were
:03:51. > :03:59.kidnapped and sentenced for re- education through labour. One
:03:59. > :04:04.example, one of the largest churches in Beijing with over 1,000
:04:04. > :04:13.members, since April 10th, all of their members were forbidden to
:04:13. > :04:18.worship together in their location and their own purchased building
:04:18. > :04:24.was forbidden. All of the pastor's had been under house arrest without
:04:24. > :04:32.any freedom since then. But Bob Fu, let us go back to basics. On this
:04:32. > :04:37.question of exactly what the Chinese government's reaction is to
:04:37. > :04:42.Christianity in China. It is complicated. To be crude,
:04:42. > :04:49.Christianity is legal in China. That is clear, is it not? It is
:04:49. > :04:53.legal in the form of the government sanctioned three cell Patriotic
:04:53. > :05:01.Movement church. But if you choose to exercise or manifest your
:05:01. > :05:07.religious freedom and then you will face lots of limitation, crackdown
:05:07. > :05:13.or arrest. Again,... But that cannot actually be true because if
:05:13. > :05:18.one looks at the figures, you talk about the self patriotic movement
:05:18. > :05:23.that is the main official churches, official Protestant and Catholic
:05:23. > :05:28.churches, we believe may be 20 to 30 million people worship at these
:05:28. > :05:32.official churches. But all sorts of different sources say that perhaps
:05:32. > :05:37.40 or 50 million people worship at unofficial, sometimes called the
:05:37. > :05:41.House network of churches. The Chinese government is not stupid.
:05:41. > :05:49.The authorities are well versed in monitoring their own people. They
:05:49. > :05:53.know that is going on but they allow it to happen. Legally, these
:05:53. > :06:00.40 or 60 million of house churches that choose to worship in their own
:06:00. > :06:07.homes or rental buildings, their status is actually illegal. What I
:06:07. > :06:11.am saying is, it is legal but tolerated. It is -- it seemed to be
:06:11. > :06:16.more tolerated than before because the number of these churches are
:06:16. > :06:22.rising. Yes they are rising but their status is still declared
:06:22. > :06:28.illegal. The government can take any action at any moment. Imagine
:06:28. > :06:38.in any given Sunday when a member of the Sturge, in the capital city
:06:38. > :06:38.
:06:38. > :06:43.of Beijing, -- member of the Church, and you want to worship, they
:06:43. > :06:49.already have a card and members have to climb out of the window and
:06:49. > :06:53.hide in hotels or in parks in order to go to their worship service.
:06:53. > :06:59.This is still happening since 10th April. So we are talking about
:06:59. > :07:07.religious freedom in China, you could be sentenced to 15 years.
:07:07. > :07:11.it is clearly not like the attitude that the Chinese Government brings
:07:11. > :07:15.forward. There is a tolerance even of the unofficial house churches
:07:15. > :07:21.inside China which is not there for some other religious movements
:07:21. > :07:31.inside the country. Do you accept that? You are right. There is a
:07:31. > :07:35.
:07:35. > :07:44.different tactic in handling other types of religions. At least Father
:07:44. > :07:48.Gong does not even have the ability to exist. The more I look into this,
:07:48. > :07:53.the more I get the impression that there are many people in the church
:07:53. > :08:00.movement who are beginning to see a different kind of, different from
:08:00. > :08:05.the one you betray. I was very taken by the work of one evangelist
:08:05. > :08:10.who makes many visits to China. But his last visit, these are some of
:08:10. > :08:14.the things he said. Chinese people enjoy more religious freedom than
:08:14. > :08:19.people overseas imagine. He addressed a crowd of 8,000 people
:08:19. > :08:24.at an open-air worship and said, I have been coming here for ten years
:08:24. > :08:29.and am encouraged by the spiritual growth. Many distinguished Bible
:08:29. > :08:33.Peters and pastas are emerging. They are open about their fate, and
:08:33. > :08:40.I have great dreams for China. All of this in the open. He says, I am
:08:40. > :08:48.not controlled when I come here at all. I know that man a die have
:08:48. > :08:55.interaction with him. I admire him. -- that man and I have interaction.
:08:55. > :09:05.To preach even to a larger crowd, he can do that. But persecution
:09:05. > :09:08.
:09:08. > :09:14.still exist. You cannot ignore certain lawyers who lose their
:09:14. > :09:24.licences and have to shut down their law firms, are kidnapped,
:09:24. > :09:29.tortured with a cigarette in his eyes, and still missing for years.
:09:29. > :09:36.But is that more for legal work and challenges presented to authority
:09:36. > :09:43.than the practice in of an underground Christian belief?
:09:43. > :09:50.also a member of the underground house church movement. Other house
:09:50. > :09:57.church leaders, one leader recently was arrested and sentenced to two
:09:57. > :10:03.years education in a labour camp for leading a church. Another was
:10:03. > :10:08.simply leading a group of worshippers and sentenced to 15
:10:08. > :10:12.years in 2009. He is still serving his sentence. I suppose the
:10:12. > :10:16.question, I am trying to define the balance between the big picture and
:10:16. > :10:20.the imported individual cases you are putting to me. Tell me more
:10:20. > :10:27.about China Aid. You raise money, you raise awareness, you lobby in
:10:27. > :10:30.the US, but the also try to follow funding and active support and
:10:30. > :10:37.training to Christian preachers and to Christian activists inside
:10:37. > :10:46.China? Yes we do. We are a Christian non-profit organisation
:10:47. > :10:53.based in the US and are partnered with other global organisations.
:10:53. > :10:58.And what our ministry focus is, is to expose abuses and encourage use
:10:58. > :11:03.adequate leaders. We do advocacy work and we also provide financial
:11:03. > :11:08.support for those who are abused. We also provide legal aid to those
:11:08. > :11:14.who are prosecuted in justly. when you are trying to raise money,
:11:14. > :11:18.I do not doubt the veracity of individual cases, Unita paid as
:11:18. > :11:25.bleak a picture as possible in many ways to get as much money as
:11:25. > :11:29.possible. -- you need to paint as bleak. One man in the US has looked
:11:29. > :11:34.at the movement and says the talk of having to smuggle Bibles into
:11:34. > :11:38.China, you do not need to do that. He says he transport them easily to
:11:38. > :11:47.rural churches. I wonder if some of the way you betray what you are
:11:47. > :11:55.doing is a little bit more melodramatic than it needs to be? -
:11:55. > :12:01.- the way you portray. It is not just about the government
:12:01. > :12:05.sanctioned a church. They have been many books on China. One writer
:12:05. > :12:09.says millions of house church Christians gather every Sunday,
:12:09. > :12:15.Sunday congregations of many hundreds, and do not fear being
:12:15. > :12:20.arrested. Is it the individual picture you are painting? I know we
:12:20. > :12:24.have people underground and are doing the investigations and
:12:24. > :12:29.reporting, verification of our reports. So it is not only one or
:12:29. > :12:37.two or 100 cases in the past few years, we documented thousands of
:12:37. > :12:43.cases. But to get back to this -- the claims that there is religious
:12:43. > :12:51.freedom in China already, the barbels are free to all, I do not
:12:51. > :12:56.deny that. -- the Bibles. But there is one single fact, that not a
:12:56. > :13:01.single copy of the Bible is allowed to be sold near any public
:13:01. > :13:04.bookstall. Is that religious freedom? If you distribute some
:13:04. > :13:09.Bibles outside the four walls of the Tote building of a government
:13:09. > :13:18.sanctioned Church, you will know what will happen. You will have a
:13:18. > :13:21.minimum of paying a fine or be arrested. I tell my foreign friends,
:13:21. > :13:29.if they believed China has a religious freedom, bloated
:13:29. > :13:33.Tiananmen Square or a public square. -- go to. Let me ask you about your
:13:33. > :13:38.strongest supporters will allies in the US. Would it be fair to
:13:38. > :13:42.characterise them as Christian Conservatives who are deeply
:13:42. > :13:48.evangelical, they want to see more Christians converted to Christians
:13:48. > :13:53.in the world, conversions, and they also want to see a very strong
:13:53. > :13:58.anti- abortion message, for example, delivered around the world. Would
:13:58. > :14:01.that be a fair comment about your fund has? The majority of our
:14:01. > :14:10.supporters are conservative Christians in the US and around the
:14:10. > :14:15.globe. But because are causes to without religious freedom in China.
:14:15. > :14:19.What about finding new converts, is that part of your mission? No. That
:14:19. > :14:24.is what they call mission of China Aid. Ours is the wood that
:14:24. > :14:32.religious freedom in China. That is why we chose to work with human
:14:32. > :14:37.rights defenders and leaders. It is a common cause. If China becomes a
:14:37. > :14:47.democracy of freedom, it means we defend freedom for a fierce and up
:14:47. > :14:47.
:14:47. > :14:53.I wonder whether you fully sympathise with some of your
:14:53. > :15:00.strongest supporters, you sit next to one of the most staunch anti-
:15:00. > :15:04.abortion campaigners in the US today. He condemns China for its
:15:04. > :15:10.opinion on abortion. He is a man who condemns China for other
:15:10. > :15:20.reasons as well. Is he so mind you sympathise with politically?
:15:20. > :15:27.the same message. I respect him and admire his courage. Nowadays in the
:15:27. > :15:33.West, we do not find much warriors to stand up for basic issues like
:15:33. > :15:38.religious freedom and a rule of law in China. Like human rights
:15:38. > :15:44.abuses... The majority of Western businessmen choose to be silent.
:15:44. > :15:51.Chris Smith, his message resonates with me, it is not about the US
:15:51. > :15:58.politics of anti-abortion. Whether you approve its or a pro-life,
:15:58. > :16:06.forced abortion is not a choice. Forced abortion in China is massive.
:16:06. > :16:14.In 30 years of one-child policy, at least 100,000 babies were aborted
:16:14. > :16:22.by force. That was done by own family members. I remember when I
:16:23. > :16:32.was a small child, the family planning a -- official jumped into
:16:32. > :16:36.my yard and arrested my brother. They took hiey took hikroom, dozens
:16:36. > :16:41.of people beat him up. It was because my sister-in-law was
:16:41. > :16:49.pregnant and hiding in another village. You are happy to line up
:16:49. > :16:55.with the Congressman Smith, how do you feel about America's leaders?
:16:55. > :17:01.What we have seen over the past 15- 20 years, a succession of
:17:01. > :17:09.presidents who have been pragmatic when it comes to China. That is
:17:09. > :17:19.true. We have more concerned about the global, US interest,
:17:19. > :17:22.
:17:22. > :17:28.unfortunately, some President took human rights on the sideline.
:17:28. > :17:33.decided to condemn President Obama 1 year ago very loudly. You said
:17:33. > :17:38.there has been silence on China and the issue of human rights. They
:17:38. > :17:47.admitted that they are silent. They have demonstrated that. President
:17:47. > :17:51.Obama has made speeches about human rights and the universality of
:17:51. > :17:56.human rights. But in a very difficult world economy, where
:17:56. > :18:00.trade and currency issues are very important, to quote Hillary Clinton,
:18:00. > :18:07.if you are in the same boat you have to row in the same direction
:18:07. > :18:13.or you calls turmoil. That is pragmatic global politics. You
:18:13. > :18:21.cannot order it around and expected to listen. She also changed course
:18:21. > :18:31.her speech afterwards. She said China is on the wrong side of
:18:31. > :18:32.
:18:32. > :18:42.history. If story. If US deeply believe we are in the same boat,
:18:42. > :18:44.
:18:44. > :18:47.how can we claim that we are sh shsame values? To align
:18:47. > :18:55.ourselves with a human rights abuses, I think that is very
:18:55. > :19:02.dangerous. You and your wife fled from China in 1997. We are talking
:19:02. > :19:07.14 years ago. Do you think you have a sense of the dynamic within
:19:07. > :19:15.Chinese politics, political culture today? Maybe you are
:19:15. > :19:21.underestimating the potential for change in China today? I'm a
:19:21. > :19:29.optimists. I am very optimistic about China's future. I see how the
:19:29. > :19:33.ordinary citizens, their courage and pursuit of freedom. When you
:19:33. > :19:38.see human rights defenders, including Ai Weiwei, after so much
:19:38. > :19:45.abuse and torture, therture, the choose to speak up. That is the
:19:45. > :19:48.real strength of the Chinese civil society. There is no doubting the
:19:48. > :19:52.carriage of people like Ai Weiwei and others, but I am more
:19:52. > :19:57.interested about what is happening within the Communist Party. It is
:19:57. > :20:02.interesting to me, you as a young man were convinced you could change
:20:02. > :20:07.the party from within. That is why you were in Tiananmen Square in the
:20:07. > :20:15.first place. You had faith that the party could change, had the last
:20:15. > :20:19.that completely? We almost lost the faith when the Chinese military
:20:19. > :20:26.tanks started crashing the innocent students and cost hundreds if not
:20:26. > :20:31.thousands of lives. We are hopeful, we want the party to reform. We
:20:31. > :20:39.want the reformers to take action to demonstrate that they care about
:20:39. > :20:42.a brighter and better China. I do believe there are some still...
:20:42. > :20:51.Given the emotional roller-coaster at you when time as a result of
:20:51. > :21:00.what happened in 89, I wonder what you think when Premier Wen Jiabao,
:21:00. > :21:04.who are seeing as reformers, have said we have to push forward with
:21:04. > :21:11.political reform otherwise we would jeopardise our economic reform and
:21:11. > :21:19.the goal of modernisation. Do you take that seriously or not?
:21:19. > :21:26.words need to be met with actions. What did he do? What has he done?
:21:26. > :21:31.What about signs of democracy within the village movement? Even
:21:31. > :21:36.within the Communist Party apparatus, at a lower level, we
:21:37. > :21:45.have seen this book, democracy is a good thing, he has pushed
:21:45. > :21:50.democratic elections for low-level posts. What I have learned and many
:21:50. > :21:59.other credible organisations, all of these independent candidates,
:21:59. > :22:05.who want to participate in a civil society and a free elections... To
:22:06. > :22:15.campaign peacefully, none of them was admitted. Some of them were
:22:16. > :22:18.
:22:18. > :22:22.kidnapped and put in a darkroom. Only recently has he resurfaced.
:22:22. > :22:27.All of the independent candidates are not allowed into the process.
:22:27. > :22:32.Most of them have been illegally detained. Yet, you tell me you are
:22:32. > :22:40.still an optimist. You are a practising pastor, you are a man of
:22:40. > :22:49.great faith, you have been invited back to China by other people of
:22:49. > :22:57.faith, will you consider going? Every day I wake up, my number one
:22:57. > :23:05.fear is going home. I have been missing my piece of land for 15
:23:05. > :23:12.years. On the other hand, I know the Chinese government... They are
:23:12. > :23:22.not going to let me in their peacefully. Are you sure about
:23:22. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:35.that? They have let other pastors in peacefully. I am not the foreign
:23:35. > :23:38.
:23:38. > :23:44.athletes in the Christian community. -- elite. Some pastors told the
:23:44. > :23:49.reporters that the security forces wanted them to bring me there are
:23:49. > :23:53.so they could arrest me. You have three children in the US, when you
:23:53. > :23:57.look at your children, do you believe there is a possibility for
:23:58. > :24:03.them to live their lives as Christians in China? I do believe
:24:03. > :24:09.and I do have that faith and confidence. That is one of the
:24:09. > :24:14.motivations for why I'm doing what I'm doing. Not only for my
:24:14. > :24:17.generation, I want my children to enjoy the freedom to sleep