:00:03. > :00:09.The headlines: Huge crowds have gathered in Libya's second city
:00:09. > :00:12.Benghazi for a ceremony to mark the country's liberation. The head of
:00:12. > :00:17.the National Transitional Council will lead the event.
:00:17. > :00:25.David Cameron is holding talks with other European leaders about the
:00:25. > :00:29.debt crisis in the euro-zone. They hope to agree on a response to calm
:00:29. > :00:34.the market. As a as a people's are believed to have been killed in a
:00:34. > :00:39.powerful earthquake in Turkey's Easton area.
:00:39. > :00:44.The 24 year-old Italian motor cyclist Marco Simoncelli has died
:00:44. > :00:48.in a crash. He lost control of his bike on the second lap of the
:00:48. > :00:52.circuit and appeared to be hit by two other riders as he slid across
:00:52. > :00:57.the track. Tributes have been paid to a couple
:00:57. > :01:04.from Merseyside who were killed in a flash flood in Spain. Kenneth
:01:04. > :01:14.Hall and his wife Mary were swept away when a river burst its banks.
:01:14. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:19.Don't forget, all of this is live on the web.
:01:19. > :01:24.We are expecting David Cameron very shortly at a press conference in
:01:24. > :01:30.Brussels. He has been delayed somewhat, but could appear at any
:01:30. > :01:36.moment and we will go to that press conference when it happens. We are
:01:36. > :01:41.now going to take you into HARDtalk because it meets Mahmoud Jibril,
:01:41. > :01:45.the acting prime minister of Libya. Colonel Gaddafi is dead and the
:01:45. > :01:52.challenges ahead are immense but he is walking away from power and we
:01:52. > :01:57.have been asking him why. For many Libyans, the death of
:01:57. > :02:02.Gaddafi represents a new beginning, but the beginning of what? A
:02:02. > :02:08.genuine democracy built on the rule of law or something darker? A
:02:08. > :02:11.period of infighting and civil strife? I have come to Jordan,
:02:11. > :02:16.currently hosting a conference on the future of the Middle-Eastern
:02:16. > :02:21.economy, to meet Mahmoud Jibril, the interim prime minister of Libya.
:02:21. > :02:31.Gaddafi is dead, the challenge is ahead are immense, but he is
:02:31. > :02:47.
:02:47. > :02:52.Mahmoud Jibril, welcome to HARDtalk. Is the Post Gaddafi led the are
:02:52. > :03:00.going to be defined by the pursuit of justice or the pursuit of
:03:00. > :03:04.vengeance? Hopefully to the pursuit of justice. If there is vengeance,
:03:04. > :03:11.there was also what we called transitional justice that should
:03:11. > :03:16.take care of every desire of reprisal. People can't be blamed
:03:16. > :03:21.after 42 years of bitterness and being under this dictatorship, you
:03:21. > :03:26.know, which is unprecedented in the history of the Middle East.
:03:26. > :03:31.Nevertheless, I am counting on the awareness of the Libyan people to
:03:31. > :03:36.differentiate between past and future. What lessons should we draw
:03:36. > :03:40.from the killing of Colonel Gaddafi? The more we look at it,
:03:40. > :03:47.the more it looks like an unlawful killing. He was captured and then
:03:47. > :03:57.killed. Let me stop for a moment here because there is some
:03:57. > :03:58.
:03:58. > :04:04.confusion over this issue. I was in constant contact on the day Gaddafi
:04:04. > :04:10.was killed with ICC, and they required we should go by the book.
:04:10. > :04:17.An autopsy was carried out, the forensic people were there, and
:04:17. > :04:22.this is what he told the world. Because you told the world that
:04:22. > :04:27.Gaddafi had been killed in crossfire between your forces...
:04:27. > :04:32.This is word by word what the coroner has told me when they
:04:32. > :04:37.caught him in that pipeline, the sea which duped. He was hit, he was
:04:37. > :04:43.injured because obviously he was in some sort of skirmish with the
:04:43. > :04:53.freedom fighters because most of the people surrounding him were
:04:53. > :04:54.
:04:54. > :04:59.Mauritanian so. This is what I was told. I made sure and stopped on
:04:59. > :05:05.the way to find out if what the coroner has said was true. We know
:05:05. > :05:13.he was very much alive when he came out. He was alive. It seems that
:05:13. > :05:17.some time later he was very much dead, an-hour or two. No, it was a
:05:18. > :05:23.matter of 10 or 15 minutes. They were taking him to the hospital. To
:05:23. > :05:28.be honest with you, personally I wish he was alive. I want to know
:05:28. > :05:36.why he did this to the Libyan people. I wish I was the prosecutor
:05:36. > :05:43.in his trial because this is the question in everybody's mind - why?
:05:43. > :05:48.Did the Libyan people deserve what he did? So know if he was executed,
:05:48. > :05:53.and the international community now has many voices asking for a full
:05:53. > :05:58.investigation, if he was executed by forces loyal to your
:05:58. > :06:04.administration, you would deeply regret that, would you? And no, I
:06:04. > :06:11.don't like our image to be tainted, but let me be very fair in this,
:06:11. > :06:18.just to be objective a little bit. Thousands and thousands of people
:06:18. > :06:28.have been killed by Gaddafi. Nobody has defended the international
:06:28. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:36.community before this uprising. In one prison, more than 1000 people
:06:36. > :06:41.were killed in an hour and a half and we did not hear one voice from
:06:41. > :06:49.the international community. Now this one murder, a man who was
:06:49. > :06:54.killed in crossfire, the coroner told me he was killed in crossfire
:06:54. > :07:00.and he didn't even know whether he was killed by the Freedom fighters
:07:00. > :07:03.or his security brigade. It is not a question of sympathy, it is a
:07:03. > :07:09.question of holding the new look Libya to a different standard of
:07:09. > :07:12.Gaddafi's Libya. There is no question Gaddafi's Libya was
:07:12. > :07:16.responsible for hundreds of thousands of tortures and abuse,
:07:16. > :07:20.that has been catalogued, but the standard for your government is
:07:20. > :07:25.going to be very different. totally understand that but I
:07:25. > :07:35.wanted to know after the fall of the regime, those Freedom fighters
:07:35. > :07:36.
:07:36. > :07:40.are in a state of anxiety, there are some violations in the security
:07:40. > :07:45.issues. There were some violations after the fall of Tripoli but
:07:45. > :07:50.nobody talked about that. It was a few reports from Amnesty
:07:50. > :07:59.International, other than that nobody raised in issue. Why Gaddafi
:07:59. > :08:05.in particular? The final point on this, of Human Rights Commission
:08:05. > :08:11.has called for a full investigation, the White House wants a full
:08:11. > :08:14.accounting. Are you prepared to conduct a full investigation and
:08:14. > :08:20.allowed an international team to monitor the investigation you take?
:08:20. > :08:24.Yes, that would be absolutely OK with us, but for the body when it
:08:24. > :08:29.is buried, according to Islamic rule, when it is buried it is
:08:29. > :08:35.buried. We have the coroner's report, I saw the body myself. I
:08:35. > :08:39.can testify there were no bruises on his face or body. If somebody
:08:39. > :08:46.wanted to abuse his body, that was the perfect chance in that truck.
:08:46. > :08:52.They would hit him 10,000 times before they shot him. Of course the
:08:52. > :08:57.body is still there in that cold storage in Misrata. It is, and I
:08:57. > :09:02.think it will be buried within the next 48 hours. It is a strange
:09:02. > :09:08.message that you have kept the body against Muslim practice in a
:09:08. > :09:14.freezer. You have allowed Libyans to come and look at the body. Do
:09:14. > :09:22.you think that was the right way to handle it? From an Islamic point of
:09:22. > :09:28.view, I think you are right. Bodies should be buried as soon as
:09:28. > :09:32.possible, that is in respect of the dead. But if you look at it from a
:09:32. > :09:41.different perspective, for those Libyans who have been tortured for
:09:41. > :09:45.42 years, they wish they could see him in a box being fairly tried
:09:45. > :09:50.under international supervision. There have been denied that
:09:50. > :10:00.opportunity by the will of God. I don't know who shot him, you know.
:10:00. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:06.So at least a glimpse, a look at his face, now it is only a few days
:10:06. > :10:12.and he will be buried. You have Western tradition, paying respect
:10:12. > :10:19.and paying a final look, some sort of cascade and everybody looks at
:10:19. > :10:22.the body, so why deny this right? You would do the same thing.
:10:22. > :10:30.course the Gaddafi family is not completely gone from Libya because
:10:30. > :10:34.we don't know where Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi is. What is the latest
:10:34. > :10:41.information you have on that and do you believe you will capture him?
:10:41. > :10:51.wish to do so but there are no confirmed reports 100%. We have
:10:51. > :10:54.
:10:55. > :11:00.reports he is still in a city close to Misrata. We have reports he has
:11:00. > :11:04.been shot in the same place they got his father and brother. We have
:11:04. > :11:14.reports from the Niger government that his associate fled the scene
:11:14. > :11:15.
:11:15. > :11:21.with him, managed to get his way through Niger. That was confirmed
:11:21. > :11:26.by the government there, that he is in the north of Niger. So hopefully
:11:27. > :11:31.the first report is accurate and we get full confirmation of that.
:11:31. > :11:37.Let's talk about the days ahead. The challenge is immense for all of
:11:37. > :11:41.you who have power in Libya today. You yourself told Time magazine
:11:41. > :11:47.just before Gaddafi was killed "we are heading towards a political
:11:47. > :11:50.battle. The rules of the game are not clearly-defined because we went
:11:50. > :11:55.straight from the National Physical battled to a political battle with
:11:55. > :12:02.no boundaries, and this should not have happened before the creation
:12:02. > :12:11.of a new state." sounds like you are very worried. I was, and I am
:12:11. > :12:14.still worried to be honest with you. Now, after Gaddafi has gone, I hope
:12:14. > :12:19.all those freedom fighters in the street realise that this is a time
:12:19. > :12:26.to rebuild the state. This is a time that everybody should put down
:12:26. > :12:31.his guns. Either go back to his old job, whether he is a doctor, an
:12:32. > :12:35.engineer, an accountant, or whatever, and for the unemployed
:12:35. > :12:41.there are opportunities. We have developed some structure and
:12:41. > :12:45.organisations for them. We have a ministry for the Freedom fighters,
:12:45. > :12:51.for the wounded, for those who are lost, and another institution to
:12:51. > :12:57.accommodate them back to society, giving them some training. This is
:12:57. > :13:02.some sort of getting them back smoothly. You mentioned the guns,
:13:02. > :13:07.and there are tens of thousands of weapons in Libya today and many of
:13:07. > :13:12.them, frankly, Irene whereabouts that are not known, very powerful
:13:12. > :13:17.weapons. Others are being held by militia groups and by parts of
:13:17. > :13:22.Europe will force which seems they are not taking their orders from
:13:22. > :13:31.the central government, the new rulers of Libya. Is that true?
:13:31. > :13:38.some extent, yes. That is extraordinarily worrying, is it
:13:38. > :13:43.not? Yes, but what type of incident have you heard so far? So far.
:13:43. > :13:48.far, have you heard any incident? As you know, there have been
:13:48. > :13:54.limited sporadic signs of clashes. There are some violations of human
:13:54. > :13:57.rights, I accept that. But in the street have you seen anybody from
:13:57. > :14:03.those Freedom fighters killing people in the streets, you know?
:14:03. > :14:08.But the question for you, having had months as the de facto prime
:14:08. > :14:12.minister of the interim government, why have you failed to impose order,
:14:12. > :14:20.your will, on all of the armed forces that were supposed to be
:14:20. > :14:28.loyal to you and on the country as a whole? The pretext was always
:14:28. > :14:32.that liberation is not over yet. Plus, you know, we have different
:14:32. > :14:40.armoured men in Tripoli from different cities of the country,
:14:40. > :14:48.and everybody is claiming that this is our capital. We have to secured
:14:48. > :14:57.our capital. It is not the domain of the council of Tripoli. No, and
:14:57. > :15:01.many are thinking that this is the most -- Islamist fighter would not
:15:02. > :15:05.recognise your authority. Too many people at the top of the
:15:05. > :15:13.transitional council had served Gaddafi, and you were not
:15:13. > :15:16.representative of Libya in his view. If we are almost, the authority
:15:16. > :15:22.comes from the hundreds of men loyal to him and the weapons they
:15:22. > :15:26.hold. There are hundreds of men all over the place. To be honest with
:15:26. > :15:31.you, if I am going to give credit to each statement made here and
:15:31. > :15:36.there, statements all over the place, statements or loathe the
:15:36. > :15:40.Facebook day and night, I would not work one hour. Will there come a
:15:40. > :15:44.time when all the rebel groups have to be forcibly disarmed if they
:15:44. > :15:54.will not hand over their weapons and go back to the sort of lives
:15:54. > :15:57.
:15:57. > :16:00.I do not know. We will see that in the next few days. If the
:16:00. > :16:05.transitional council takes a firm stand and asks them to put down
:16:05. > :16:11.their arms and asks them to join the police department, or a
:16:11. > :16:18.national guard, will they obey the orders? We have to see. You, it
:16:18. > :16:21.seems, walking away from this. Having served as Prime Minister of
:16:22. > :16:25.the National Transitional Council for months, you said days ago that
:16:25. > :16:31.when liberation is officially announced, which as we speak is
:16:31. > :16:39.about to happen, and it will signal the end of the conflict, you said
:16:40. > :16:49.you are walking away, I quit, why? I think I have a better role to
:16:49. > :16:55.carry out, to try and develop the civil society organisation in Libya,
:16:56. > :17:00.to help the young people. I still believe that Libya can be a model
:17:00. > :17:05.for the Arab Spring. If we help those kids who were the initiators
:17:05. > :17:12.of this, develop their political platform, which reflects their own
:17:12. > :17:19.dreams, not our dreams, and organise them, then we will have a
:17:19. > :17:23.new leadership in their Middle-East. That is the optimistic view. The
:17:23. > :17:27.pessimistic view, and these are the words of a professor at the
:17:27. > :17:32.University of Cairo, the problem is that the National Council, the
:17:32. > :17:40.brand new leaders of Libya, do not have a single credible institution
:17:40. > :17:44.in the country. Libyans have nothing that knits them together.
:17:44. > :17:51.think that is a misleading statement. Has Libya had any
:17:51. > :18:01.credible institution in the last 40 years? To have 80 in the last 48 --
:18:01. > :18:04.
:18:04. > :18:14.to have it in the last eight months,, on! -- eight months, come
:18:14. > :18:15.
:18:15. > :18:19.on! We have had only one man. of the men who has challenge your
:18:19. > :18:25.authority was a senior figure in the rebel forces and is now an
:18:25. > :18:29.important player in Tripoli. He suggested he might even challenge
:18:29. > :18:34.for the Prime Minister's job himself. If a man like that was to
:18:34. > :18:39.challenge, do you believe he is qualified to do it? I cannot deny
:18:39. > :18:47.any Libyan the chance to run for whatever post. That is a natural
:18:47. > :18:51.right for everybody. My only requisite is that we do it through
:18:51. > :18:58.elections, not through arms, but through words, through the ballot
:18:58. > :19:04.box. All Libyans should have the right to participate in that
:19:04. > :19:14.process. Do you believe there is a danger that Islamic groups and
:19:14. > :19:14.
:19:14. > :19:18.Islamist radicals could become very powerful in the brand-new Libya?
:19:18. > :19:28.think Libyan society is a moderate society, by the very nature of
:19:28. > :19:35.Islam. We follow moderate doctrine. I think these people are moderate
:19:35. > :19:45.by their very nature. This is not to say that other streams of
:19:45. > :19:48.thought are excluded. Some say they are excluded. A senior figure in
:19:48. > :19:53.the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya says that Islam is have a right to
:19:53. > :19:58.act for the future of Libya through democratic processes, but they keep
:19:58. > :20:04.trying to keep us away, using the same sort of policy of exclusion
:20:04. > :20:11.towards the Islamists that Gaddafi used. He said that people like you,
:20:11. > :20:16.people who used to working the Gaddafi regime. The cabinet that we
:20:16. > :20:22.have, 16 people, including myself, four of them are from the Muslim
:20:22. > :20:28.Brotherhood. I was the one who convinced the chairman of the
:20:28. > :20:38.council that the Muslim Brotherhood should be included. I am not
:20:38. > :20:38.
:20:38. > :20:43.against any Libyan. It is not in my nature. Let me ask you about the
:20:43. > :20:49.western help that Libya received. You spend a lot of time travelling,
:20:49. > :20:53.London, Paris, meeting figures from the NATO alliance. NATO has
:20:54. > :20:59.announced that operations will end by the end of October, and the
:20:59. > :21:07.Russians are trying to get the UN Security Council to formally end
:21:07. > :21:12.the mandate of Resolution 1973. Do you worry that his speed that we
:21:12. > :21:17.see could be damaging for Libya, after all, we have spoken about the
:21:17. > :21:21.number of weapons in your country and the potential for instability?
:21:21. > :21:26.Do you want to see some sort of international protection,
:21:26. > :21:34.stabilisation Force, inside Libya for months to come? Not inside
:21:34. > :21:44.Libya, because no Libyan wants that. I have repeated that myself to our
:21:44. > :21:48.friends in the international community. We do not need a
:21:48. > :21:58.security force, but the moment we need it, we will tell you. Going
:21:58. > :22:02.
:22:02. > :22:06.back to the NATO issue, my argument with the Secretary General was that
:22:06. > :22:13.an interim government should be formed within a period of one
:22:13. > :22:18.month-three months. At least give us a period when we managed to form
:22:18. > :22:25.the new government. He said that the members are leaning towards
:22:25. > :22:29.that period of 10 weeks. So your message to NATO is that you're
:22:29. > :22:34.being too hasty, do not assume that stability and peace has been
:22:34. > :22:44.established yet? Are we still have to form a brand new government, and
:22:44. > :22:45.
:22:45. > :22:55.take things into our hands. So do you want NATO to actually pods, and
:22:55. > :22:57.
:22:58. > :23:03.not commit to ending operations by the end of October? -- pause.
:23:03. > :23:07.think this is a challenge. They will be watching closely and if
:23:07. > :23:14.necessary, we can take the same route. I do not think there will be
:23:14. > :23:18.in need for that. Before we end, two thoughts about rebuilding Libya.
:23:18. > :23:24.The first one is construction, there is a massive amount of damage,
:23:24. > :23:29.how long will it take to put that right? I have made some sort of
:23:29. > :23:34.speculation about the damage that this country has witnessed. The
:23:34. > :23:38.development and the revival of this country, not only reviving the
:23:38. > :23:43.infrastructure, but reviving the human beings, because that is
:23:43. > :23:53.another type of destruction that we did not pay attention to. We're
:23:53. > :23:53.
:23:53. > :23:59.talking about $480 billion in a period of 20 years. For 20 years
:23:59. > :24:03.with 480 billion, we're speaking about 24 billion per year. You said
:24:04. > :24:08.that he wanted to be a model, you believe it can be a model across
:24:08. > :24:13.the Arab world for peace and stability, but it is going to be
:24:13. > :24:19.very difficult, isn't it? This is the quote from a former Tunisian
:24:19. > :24:25.ambassador who briefly became the Foreign Minister. He said, for all
:24:25. > :24:29.of us, it is a hard road, this road to reform in the Arab world,
:24:29. > :24:35.because our battle is with then and against our selves -- against their
:24:35. > :24:45.cells. I think in the next eight months, if we get through them
:24:45. > :24:48.
:24:48. > :24:57.safely, I think we're about to start something unprecedented. --
:24:57. > :25:07.ourselves. We have the technology, we have the
:25:07. > :25:09.
:25:09. > :25:19.human-resources. We have a vast terrain, so technology is in order
:25:19. > :25:20.
:25:20. > :25:27.to bridge is a vast terrain. Libya should be a service economy based
:25:27. > :25:33.on knowledge, this was shown in a study called Libya 2025. We need to
:25:33. > :25:43.make-up for the lost years. Mahmoud Jibril, thank you very much for
:25:43. > :26:01.
:26:01. > :26:05.being on HARDtalk. Thank you. Take Good afternoon. We have had some
:26:05. > :26:11.pretty large differences in the weather across the UK this weekend.
:26:11. > :26:16.Scotland, Northern Ireland, wet and windy, England and Wales, bright
:26:16. > :26:22.and breezy. But there will be rain for almost all areas first thing
:26:22. > :26:30.this week. Today, some sunny spells across England and Wales, and it
:26:30. > :26:33.will be a mild day from mid- to late October. Pretty heavy rain
:26:33. > :26:40.around Northern Ireland and Scotland, but across the board it
:26:40. > :26:45.will be a breezy story. The breeze will come from the south, and that
:26:45. > :26:49.will freshen things a little. If you're planning on travelling in
:26:49. > :26:54.the next few hours, heading home from a weekend away, no problems in
:26:54. > :26:59.terms of the weather in northern England, the Midlands, East Anglia.
:26:59. > :27:05.It will be a mile down to the day. Temperatures in the high teens
:27:05. > :27:10.around 5 o'clock. A little bit wetter in the south-west and Wales.
:27:10. > :27:15.Rain coming in to coastal areas at times through the afternoon. But
:27:15. > :27:19.most of the rain will hold off until after dark. It is a different
:27:19. > :27:25.story for Northern Ireland. It is raining and it will remain wed for
:27:25. > :27:35.a good few hours into the evening. The bright colours in the picture
:27:35. > :27:40.
:27:40. > :27:45.are the heaviest days of rain. -- heaviest areas.
:27:45. > :27:51.The further east you are in the UK, the better your chances of staying
:27:51. > :27:57.dry tonight. Again, it will be a mild night. Throughout Monday,
:27:57. > :28:04.there will be heavy downfalls of rain. In Pembrokeshire and Cornwall,
:28:04. > :28:07.we could see it at couple of inches of rain in some spots. Like
:28:07. > :28:12.Northern Ireland, that could cost flooding. You will notice that the
:28:12. > :28:20.rain returns to Northern Ireland on Monday as well. It will still be
:28:20. > :28:23.mild and bright. In the east, temperatures around 14 degrees.