:00:07. > :00:12.Now it is time bought HARDtalk. HARDtalk is in Egypt. My guess is
:00:12. > :00:22.Yosri Fouda, the television journalist who has taken his own
:00:22. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:45.Yosri Fouda, welcome to HARDtalk. I wanted begin by taking you back to
:00:45. > :00:51.those extraordinary days of January and February this year, and the
:00:51. > :00:59.revolution. Did you feel liberated as a journalist as well as an
:00:59. > :01:09.Egyptian citizen? Yes, on both levels. We were full of tremendous
:01:09. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:18.hope. You live to minute-by-minute. Everybody believed that Egyptians
:01:18. > :01:25.are servile and they were not revolt, for the longest time. To
:01:25. > :01:30.see it for yourself, and to be part of it, was a moment of great pride.
:01:30. > :01:35.This idea that it was going to be a watershed moment for the media, I
:01:35. > :01:41.want to focus on what you decided to do after those days of
:01:41. > :01:44.revolution. You were very keen to establish a new form of journalism,
:01:44. > :01:49.and they sit on rigorous and challenging interviews, not so
:01:49. > :01:54.dissimilar to what we do on HARDtalk. A new developed a
:01:54. > :02:00.programme, The Final Word. Did you really believe that the Egypt that
:02:00. > :02:03.had come from this revolution, was in Egypt that was ready for no-
:02:04. > :02:11.holds-barred, rigorous, challenging questioning of the people at the
:02:11. > :02:18.very top, those in power? I will give you one example, the first
:02:18. > :02:25.interview that idea with two journalists. It was with the
:02:25. > :02:31.military council that was in charge of the country after the revolution.
:02:31. > :02:36.There were very receptive to the pre- discussion. They looked edgy
:02:36. > :02:41.when it came to certain points. At the time, there were so negative --
:02:41. > :02:48.some negative stories. There were claims of torture and the rest of
:02:48. > :02:54.it. We now know that these were true. Unfortunately yes. We have a
:02:54. > :03:00.lot of evidence now. As a journalist, I was there to see it
:03:00. > :03:04.for myself. It was compelling. was the point. You were having
:03:04. > :03:08.preliminary discussions with generals, with men in uniform, you
:03:08. > :03:13.were trying to persuade them to open up, too challenging
:03:13. > :03:17.questioning, but at the very same time, you were living in a country
:03:17. > :03:21.that was still under the state of emergency. People who say the wrong
:03:21. > :03:30.thing can end up in prison. There was no way that you could do the
:03:30. > :03:34.job that you wanted to. To a certain extent, that is true, but
:03:34. > :03:39.also I believe that every single party in this country has been
:03:39. > :03:49.going through a new process, including the army. I realised this
:03:49. > :03:49.
:03:49. > :03:54.from the beginning. The army by nature is very conservative. They
:03:54. > :04:00.are in charge of a country that is exploding with hope. What can they
:04:00. > :04:06.do? You try to understand their position. They try as much as they
:04:06. > :04:16.can to understand why it we are insistent to discuss this point all
:04:16. > :04:26.that point, so I said to them, I am going to ask about everything. They
:04:26. > :04:28.
:04:28. > :04:32.looked at each other. This is just one example. I do not think that I
:04:32. > :04:39.can do the interview. In the end, I'm going to ask the question. You
:04:39. > :04:44.can say, no comment. But in itself that is an answer. That was then.
:04:44. > :04:49.But in the more immediate past, and only a few hundred metres from here,
:04:49. > :04:54.we have had a truly terrible event. Many people call it the Maspiro
:04:54. > :04:59.massacre. More than two dozen Coptic Christians were killed. It
:04:59. > :05:09.seems, by the security forces. All of the video evidence to suggest
:05:09. > :05:09.
:05:09. > :05:12.that is the case. As a result of that, there seems to be a new
:05:12. > :05:21.crackdown on freedom of expression. How did that manifest itself for
:05:21. > :05:25.you? It has been coming for a few months. To cut a long story short,
:05:25. > :05:31.sometimes in direct pressure is much worse then direct pressure.
:05:31. > :05:38.What you mean by indirect? You have two paradigms in terms of media
:05:38. > :05:43.ownership in Egypt. Directly, there is a state-controlled paradigm. It
:05:43. > :05:46.is easy for whoever happens to be empowered to control it. And the
:05:46. > :05:56.paradigm that was started in Egypt a few years ago, privately owned
:05:56. > :05:59.
:05:59. > :06:05.media. A few satellite channels, I struggling. The only difference
:06:05. > :06:14.when I was under Mubarak, and the few months after the revolution, is
:06:14. > :06:21.that in the Mubarak era, I got used to that, there was some clever
:06:22. > :06:29.playing with the privately owned media. Now we are going through the
:06:29. > :06:35.whole process over and over again. You are on TV are owned by one of
:06:35. > :06:41.Egypt's richest men. You want to put together a show that analyses
:06:41. > :06:46.the army's reaction, involving one of the leading opponents of the
:06:46. > :06:53.military regime, a writer. The plan is there for the programme. But at
:06:53. > :06:58.the last minute, you pull it. It never happens. Why? There were some
:06:58. > :07:02.direct reasons. It was making a nation of so many things. That
:07:02. > :07:07.particular story started a day earlier when it was announced that
:07:07. > :07:14.two military generals were going to appear on another channel, with two
:07:14. > :07:18.of my colleagues. So I called the head of the Channel. He said it was
:07:18. > :07:27.at the same time. Everybody would be watching. I would like to watch
:07:27. > :07:30.it. So I said we were going to repeat an old episode, because I
:07:30. > :07:40.want everyone to watch that programme before we had our
:07:40. > :07:43.
:07:43. > :07:50.analysis. The day after, the day it we were supposed to analyse that,
:07:50. > :07:55.we started to feel the heat. It was from different directions. This is
:07:55. > :08:01.where it gets important. What you mean by heat? Are you directly
:08:01. > :08:08.threatened? They would not do it directly. This is what really gets
:08:08. > :08:17.me. This is why I am making this stance. They would love to have the
:08:17. > :08:21.cake and eat it. They would love for you to exercise self-censorship.
:08:21. > :08:26.For you to get in my own without them getting their hands dirty. I
:08:26. > :08:33.have an issue with that. If you do not like what I report, come out
:08:33. > :08:38.and say, I do not like what you report, suspend you. Because it was
:08:38. > :08:43.more subtle than that, a lot of people in the story it announced --
:08:43. > :08:48.did not understand. This is where it comes in in terms of the
:08:48. > :08:55.ownership. Businessmen who own channels, and their position is
:08:55. > :09:00.very fragile. You channel is owned by Naguib Sawiris, one of the
:09:00. > :09:04.richest men in the whole of Egypt. I use saying that he was not
:09:04. > :09:14.prepared to back you taking on and confronting the military rulers of
:09:14. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:21.the country quiz 1 --? Everyone has a limit. He has always supported me.
:09:21. > :09:26.He has never intervened in my work, never told me what to do. He has
:09:26. > :09:29.always left it to my judgement to do it my way. That is why I
:09:29. > :09:37.volunteered, the head of the channel was begging me to go on air.
:09:37. > :09:42.I said to him, no, somebody has to draw the line somewhere. If they
:09:42. > :09:46.went into a channel with machine- guns, on that bloody Sunday, I am
:09:46. > :09:53.not going to wait until they go into my studio when I am alive,
:09:53. > :09:56.with machine-guns. Few think that it has got to that? There is a
:09:56. > :10:02.situation in the country that the military is prepared, when
:10:02. > :10:07.necessary, to use direct force against an independent media?
:10:07. > :10:13.is why I am making my stance in the fashion that I am making it. I do
:10:13. > :10:17.not want to destroy things. When he said after you suspended the
:10:17. > :10:22.programme, and walked out of the studio, you said that it is --
:10:22. > :10:26.there is no secret that most of the Prix revolution mentality is
:10:27. > :10:33.imposed upon us today, if not worse. Are you essentially saying that the
:10:33. > :10:36.guys who rule the country today are worse than Mubarak? In the sense
:10:36. > :10:45.they do not have the experience that the Mubarak regime had. Both
:10:45. > :10:49.are bad. If you are afraid of a camera, you must have something to
:10:49. > :10:53.hide. If you do not believe in the freedom of the press, and you still
:10:53. > :10:58.try to convince me that you are backing a revolution, I would say
:10:58. > :11:02.to you, I am sorry, the only difference is that they are not
:11:02. > :11:10.experienced. They are army people. They had never dealt with civil
:11:10. > :11:14.issues as -- before. They needed some reminding. You wanted to make
:11:14. > :11:17.a stand, and I dare say you did not mind the fact that many of the
:11:17. > :11:21.revolutionary forces in this country saluted you for the
:11:21. > :11:25.standard that you made, but what about your audience? There are
:11:25. > :11:29.people across the country who tuned into a show to see one journalist
:11:29. > :11:35.who was prepared to ask the tough questions, and you walked away and
:11:35. > :11:40.betrayed the audience. I am not walking. I declare this on Twitter
:11:41. > :11:50.immediately after. I'm not walking away. I am making a stand, and I am
:11:51. > :11:52.
:11:52. > :11:58.coming back. I'm giving SCAF the chance. To come up with a statement,
:11:58. > :12:02.or whatever they can. But they already have. I spoke the other day
:12:02. > :12:07.to the Information Minister. He said, Yosri Fouda is not telling
:12:07. > :12:11.the truth. The military regime does not want to manipulate and control
:12:12. > :12:17.the media. We do want to see the flowering of free expression. After
:12:17. > :12:21.I heard that, I saw that a number of the Supreme Council of the armed
:12:21. > :12:25.forces have a court the media and said, I acknowledge that Yosri
:12:25. > :12:31.Fouda is a skilled efficient and professional media person. There
:12:31. > :12:41.has been an internal media -- understanding. He must return to
:12:41. > :12:45.
:12:45. > :12:54.his natural place on air. With every due respect and appreciation
:12:54. > :13:03.for what the general said, there still remain many more questions
:13:03. > :13:13.than answers. At the same time, I'm not standing and doing nothing. I'm
:13:13. > :13:19.
:13:19. > :13:27.joining a few of my colleagues who Again is interviewed by asking you
:13:27. > :13:33.whether you feel you were somewhat naive at the beginning. Now you so
:13:33. > :13:37.you want to found a new, independent TV network. Not run by
:13:37. > :13:47.businessmen or the state, but and by the people. How can that
:13:47. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:58.possibly happen? -- owned by the people. I hope that the people in
:13:58. > :14:02.power realise there is a third way. You speak with great passion about
:14:02. > :14:07.The Independent journalists and you want to see in this country. But
:14:07. > :14:13.isn't it true that perhaps nations get the journalists and the
:14:13. > :14:17.journalism that they deserve. In Egypt are now there is substantial
:14:17. > :14:27.evidence that many journalists are themselves stuck in an old way of
:14:27. > :14:40.
:14:40. > :14:44.thinking. The way there -- they reported Maspiro. This is what one
:14:44. > :14:50.journalist inside state television said. She said she was ashamed of
:14:50. > :15:00.working for state media. It had proven itself to be a slave for
:15:00. > :15:10.whoever rules Egypt. Does it need to be utterly dismantled?
:15:10. > :15:14.revolution did happen in Egypt, but there is one crucial fact. The
:15:14. > :15:21.revolutionary forces were never allowed it to roll. So, if
:15:21. > :15:27.something goes wrong now, it is not the fault of the revolutionaries.
:15:27. > :15:35.It is the fault of whoever is running the country. I am not going
:15:35. > :15:45.to blame my colleagues. A believe the vast majority of them are
:15:45. > :15:45.
:15:45. > :15:52.victims. I am not going to blame someone who has a family to raise.
:15:52. > :15:59.Everybody does whatever they can do. I just wonder whether you and other
:15:59. > :16:04.journalists, liberals, revolutionaries, the kinds of
:16:04. > :16:14.people who protested in Tahrir Square and to continue to protest,
:16:14. > :16:21.are in some ways disconnected from ordinary Egyptians. Maybe the rural
:16:21. > :16:26.workers who live on low wages. They want to return to normality. Do you
:16:26. > :16:35.think they really care about your stand for independent journalism?
:16:35. > :16:41.Yes, I think they do. They have already shown this. This cynical
:16:42. > :16:46.view is that the silent majority hate the revolution. It just means
:16:46. > :16:52.we need to be more patient to explain to them what is actually
:16:52. > :16:59.taking place. My programme was all about this. Trying to explain to
:16:59. > :17:05.them. You really believe the messages you were sending out, the
:17:05. > :17:10.sort of Egypt you believe in, connects with those Egyptians who
:17:10. > :17:20.perhaps do not have your education, your economic advantages, your
:17:20. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:27.social status. Do you think you can reach them? Three words. Freedom,
:17:27. > :17:35.dignity, social justice. When I compeer after five months what we
:17:35. > :17:44.have achieved so far, almost nothing. All almost nothing. What a
:17:44. > :17:50.very bleak conclusion. I have to be pragmatic. We got rid of Mubarak
:17:50. > :17:57.and his cronies and D-Day couple of things here and there. But I look
:17:57. > :18:04.at the country and what happened in Chenies here and I see more of what
:18:04. > :18:14.we call the main core of the insurgency. I cannot even call it
:18:14. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:22.the X regime because the regime is still with us. They are not trying
:18:22. > :18:29.to reproduce the old regime. You can call at preserving the old
:18:29. > :18:35.regime, because it never went away. So there was no revolution? Yes,
:18:36. > :18:38.there was a revolution. I am so proud of people he came round and
:18:38. > :18:44.said what they thought about the country and finally toppled the
:18:44. > :18:49.head. Revolutions take years to happen and I think more people now
:18:49. > :18:57.realise this. And more people are prepared to be a little more
:18:57. > :19:01.patient. I just won the Supreme Council to realise this. They are
:19:01. > :19:08.in charge of a country in transition. You are in a strange
:19:08. > :19:12.place right now. A generous, a reporter. You are very used to
:19:12. > :19:19.reporting other people's affairs and suddenly you have become the
:19:19. > :19:29.news. Some people would say that is a cardinal error of Cologne to turn
:19:29. > :19:39.yourself into the story. I do not like it. I do not like it. Now,
:19:39. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:44.there are banners saying that people are with you. On why should
:19:44. > :19:53.you do that if I am already live on television every day for three
:19:53. > :19:57.hours. I can feed my ego easily through that. I do not need that.
:19:57. > :20:04.wonder whether you have crossed a fundamental divide from being the
:20:04. > :20:09.of server into being the thing unserved. You have decided that the
:20:09. > :20:14.only way to really take part in this revolution in Egypt is to get
:20:14. > :20:18.inside the politics, to play a political role. I do not want that
:20:18. > :20:25.to happen. I'm very much aware of the difference between journalism
:20:25. > :20:29.and activism. I have never crossed that line. I am now defending my
:20:29. > :20:36.very profession. I am joining forces with other colleagues of
:20:36. > :20:42.mine. Because we feel that journalism, free journalism can
:20:42. > :20:47.play a crucial role in the future of Egypt. I do believe that
:20:47. > :20:52.information is power and don't know that any one, especially in our
:20:52. > :20:58.part of the world, would hate for the people to be empowered with
:20:58. > :21:02.information. And I want to go on with this, to inform my people
:21:02. > :21:10.about what is actually happening so that they can make up their own
:21:10. > :21:15.minds. A final thought. There is, right now, a real question about
:21:15. > :21:20.how much freedom of expression Egyptians have. For example,
:21:20. > :21:24.sitting in a military prison right now is a young man who was
:21:24. > :21:28.convicted and sentenced to three years of hard labour simply for
:21:28. > :21:38.something he wrote it in a blogger on the internet about the armed
:21:38. > :21:44.
:21:44. > :21:53.forces. Used said that in some ways the activities of the Supreme
:21:53. > :21:59.Council are worse than those of Mubarak. That is a risk. I do not
:21:59. > :22:07.want pressure over something I do not believe in. I do not think they
:22:07. > :22:17.will go as far as this. If I have to, then I have to. The things I
:22:17. > :22:24.know for sure about myself, and it is not an early about myself, is
:22:24. > :22:30.that once you volunteer self- censorship you begin losing certain
:22:30. > :22:35.things inside your conscience. You have to have social responsibility
:22:35. > :22:38.and the measure of the moment that your country is going through. And
:22:39. > :22:45.that have exercise that throughout my career, especially in the last
:22:45. > :22:51.nine months. But at the same time I am not only going to take the
:22:51. > :22:56.narrative of the army in regard to these incident or any incidents. If
:22:56. > :23:02.I knew there was another narrative it is my duty to my country,
:23:02. > :23:06.including the military, this is the point. I do believe that I help the
:23:06. > :23:12.military help themselves through knowing the other narrative. This
:23:12. > :23:21.is the whole point. This is why I believe it is not some game. Do not
:23:21. > :23:25.waste your time and ours. The whole world is over these years ago. We
:23:25. > :23:33.belong to a different age now. I cannot try and Channel from my
:23:33. > :23:37.bedroom. I can go to London, Doha, Dubai, Cyprus and still tackle the
:23:37. > :23:44.same issues, and may be in a harsher way. I do not want this to
:23:44. > :23:51.happen. So, your message to the military rulers of this country is:
:23:51. > :24:00.You are going nowhere. I am staying. I am so proud that I was in this
:24:00. > :24:06.country at the right time and that I had a chance to play a little
:24:06. > :24:10.better role. I will go back to my programme but things that have been
:24:10. > :24:16.happening over the last few months are not very promising. We deserve
:24:16. > :24:26.much better than this. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you
:24:26. > :24:58.
:24:58. > :25:01.For the weekend, the winds will be generally southerly. The rain has
:25:01. > :25:04.been heavy for Scotland, Wales and south-west England. It has been
:25:04. > :25:08.easing just in the last half-hour. Showers on the western coasts.
:25:08. > :25:12.Chilly in a few spots. Sunny spells tomorrow developing widely. The
:25:12. > :25:15.weather front will bring a cloudy and damp start to East Anglia and
:25:15. > :25:18.south-east England. The rain will become drizzly before clearing away.
:25:18. > :25:22.In Wales, many will start off dry with sunshine. Isolated showers
:25:22. > :25:27.around the western coast. In Ireland, it could be cold enough
:25:27. > :25:32.for ground frost. A few showers for the north-west of Scotland. Thicker
:25:32. > :25:35.cloud across Aberdeenshire and for the Scottish Borders. The rain
:25:35. > :25:42.across eastern areas of England from the weather front will clear
:25:42. > :25:48.away quickly in the morning. Kent, Essex and Suffolk will be the last
:25:48. > :25:52.places to brighten up. Temperatures well above average for the time of
:25:52. > :26:00.year, up to 16. From Tuesday into Wednesday, low pressure moves in
:26:00. > :26:05.from the Atlantic. It will be a windy day with eventual rain.
:26:05. > :26:12.Severe gales are expected through the Irish Sea. Rain eventually
:26:12. > :26:17.across northern Wales. In the sunshine it should be 17 in the