:00:03. > :00:07.developments for a nuclear bomb. Those are the headlines. That's it
:00:07. > :00:10.from me for now. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:11. > :00:16.Over the past decade, Pakistan has developed a label as the most
:00:16. > :00:23.dangerous country in the world. For much of that decade, the country
:00:23. > :00:25.was led by my guest today. With his country racked by extremist
:00:25. > :00:35.violence and corruption, and deeply troubled relations with Afghanistan,
:00:35. > :00:41.India and the US, the former president is seeking a comeback. He
:00:41. > :00:51.is currently an exile and faces trial if he returns home. Why does
:00:51. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.he think he is a solution to Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:16. > :01:21.When you left your country, your opponents were seeking to impeach
:01:21. > :01:28.you. The people were against you and you were essentially forced
:01:28. > :01:32.into exile. Why do you believe Pakistan would want you back?
:01:32. > :01:41.Actually, I resigned. I remained the President for six months after
:01:41. > :01:46.the actions. My popularity had gone down but that does not mean my
:01:46. > :01:54.popularity was completely over. I resigned and left and I know many
:01:54. > :02:04.people were crying in the country. However, now the situation is
:02:04. > :02:04.
:02:04. > :02:07.different. Pakistan is a cause bigger than myself. Because the
:02:07. > :02:16.people are suffering, they are starting thinking that during my
:02:16. > :02:26.period, economic and social factors were going up. So you think there
:02:26. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:37.is a yearning for you back in Pakistan? It is developing. Maybe
:02:37. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:40.not in the majority but certainly I can see a wind of change. If we
:02:40. > :02:44.unpick the feelings of your countrymen and women towards you,
:02:44. > :02:47.we need to make sense of what happened during your nine ruling
:02:47. > :02:50.your country. You said you apologise to the nation for the
:02:50. > :02:55.negative repercussions of decisions that were taken. What do you mean
:02:55. > :03:05.by that? There was one decision, the National Reconciliation
:03:05. > :03:08.
:03:08. > :03:15.Ordnance, which pardoned cases in court for some people. Was that a
:03:15. > :03:22.mistake you made? So after nine years in power, that was your only
:03:22. > :03:27.mistake? You have to judge a country's leader on the welfare of
:03:27. > :03:36.the people and the development of the state. We have to indicate what
:03:36. > :03:39.is the welfare of the people and the development of the state. I had
:03:40. > :03:47.made contributions to both. When we look at what happened in Pakistan,
:03:47. > :03:51.we see a country that sunk into turmoil. It became routinely
:03:51. > :03:54.labelled in America as the most dangerous country in the world. You
:03:54. > :03:58.were the military leader of Pakistan. This seems a failure that
:03:58. > :04:02.you could not deliver security in your own country. That was given in
:04:02. > :04:12.the early stages. It was not the most dangerous country in the world
:04:12. > :04:16.
:04:16. > :04:26.for me. There was a lot of sectarian extremism and turmoil in
:04:26. > :04:31.
:04:31. > :04:34.Pakistan. We were moving in the right direction. You obviously did
:04:34. > :04:43.not control things. We now know the truth about some things that
:04:43. > :04:47.happened while you were in power. I am thinking about the obvious case
:04:47. > :04:50.of Osama Bin Laden. From 2005, when you were in power, he was living
:04:50. > :04:54.within earshot of Pakistan's biggest camp. We know all of that
:04:54. > :05:00.now. We know that you failed. you think everything is a failure,
:05:00. > :05:07.what about the people that we caught from number three downwards?
:05:07. > :05:12.Was that not a success? What do we always see the glass half empty? We
:05:12. > :05:21.caught other leaders in Pakistan. Many individuals in Guantanamo Bay
:05:21. > :05:24.were caught by Pakistan. The point is that many senior Americans, the
:05:24. > :05:34.people who were in power, who have looked at what happened, to quote
:05:34. > :05:38.the former Defence Secretary, you played both sides. You signed a
:05:38. > :05:41.two-way partnership with the US on their War on Terror. At the same
:05:41. > :05:48.time you did not give up your ties with Islamist movements, including
:05:48. > :05:58.the Taliban. That is not true. I have always maintained excellent
:05:58. > :06:00.
:06:00. > :06:03.relations with Colin Powell and President Bush. They are the people
:06:03. > :06:07.who ordered their Secretary of State to tell you that if you did
:06:07. > :06:17.not join the partnership in 2001 after 9/11 then Pakistan would be
:06:17. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:20.bombed back to the Stone Age. Those are your words. You were
:06:20. > :06:30.intimidated and threatened and were told that if Pakistan did not join
:06:30. > :06:31.
:06:31. > :06:35.the alliance you would be taken back to the Stone Age. That is the
:06:35. > :06:39.start. We joined the coalition. After that... You started it on the
:06:39. > :06:45.basis of a threat. You are a military man. You must up have
:06:45. > :06:55.resented that. Let me finish. After I joined the coalition, what
:06:55. > :06:59.happened in the seven years after is the question. We were delivering
:06:59. > :07:01.and took the country in the right direction. That is where my
:07:01. > :07:11.relationship with President Bush and Colin Powell developed. Not in
:07:11. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:22.2001. Even now we have good relations. They have a poor
:07:22. > :07:25.judgement of people if I was double-crossing them and they still
:07:25. > :07:29.maintain good relations with me. This is what the media is
:07:29. > :07:33.projecting. This is absolutely wrong. It is not just the media.
:07:33. > :07:37.Let me quote you the words of a senior figure in the CIA from 1977
:07:37. > :07:39.to 2006. He was commissioned by Barack Obama to undertake a review
:07:40. > :07:47.of policy in Pakistan. He said, quote, Pakistan and General
:07:47. > :07:50.Musharraf played the Bush administration like a fiddle. They
:07:51. > :07:56.gave us just enough to keep the administration happy but not enough
:07:56. > :08:01.to eliminate Al-Qaeda and virtually nothing on the Taliban. This is his
:08:01. > :08:09.idea. I do not accept that. We have to understand that they will always
:08:10. > :08:13.be anti-Pakistan. But this man matters because he was a senior
:08:13. > :08:23.figure in the CIA and was watching what happened during your time in
:08:23. > :08:31.
:08:31. > :08:35.office. I do not agree with that statement at all. Is that all you
:08:35. > :08:39.can say to all these people who look at the evidence, including a
:08:39. > :08:42.general who has looked at after you left office, linked it to what
:08:42. > :08:48.happened during your time in office, and says that for years Pakistan
:08:48. > :08:52.and your intelligence agency have been playing a double game. He has
:08:52. > :08:57.been saying that Haqqani has been an extension of Al-Qaeda. He did
:08:57. > :09:07.not say that at all. He did not involve me in that. That is a
:09:07. > :09:10.different subject. I do not think it was a balanced statement. If
:09:10. > :09:13.35,000 people of Pakistan have been killed, if 3,000 soldiers have been
:09:13. > :09:23.killed, if more than 300 operatives have been killed, and their
:09:23. > :09:25.
:09:25. > :09:35.children have been killed, by who? Al-Qaeda and Taliban. Is there not
:09:35. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:43.a disconnect? We are quoting Pakistan wrongly and on the other
:09:43. > :09:53.side Pakistan is not doing enough. There is a problem there, no? We
:09:53. > :09:53.
:09:53. > :10:01.need to understand what the problem is. I know why it is. This brings
:10:01. > :10:06.us to the present. We have talked about your failures or success,
:10:06. > :10:09.during your time in office. But you sit here as a man who wants to go
:10:09. > :10:13.back to Pakistan and wants to play a leading role in your country
:10:13. > :10:16.going forward. What is the message to people who believe that right
:10:16. > :10:23.now, today, Pakistan's intelligence services are working hand in glove
:10:23. > :10:25.with people like Haqqani and his people? This is not the case. Every
:10:25. > :10:31.intelligence organisation has to have an interest in all
:10:32. > :10:41.organisations, even if they are against them. I am not privy to
:10:42. > :10:45.
:10:45. > :10:49.what the government is doing now. Coalition forces quitting in 2014
:10:49. > :10:59.must be causing worries. They must be analysing what we are able to do
:10:59. > :11:00.
:11:00. > :11:05.in 2014. The first victim after that is going to be in Pakistan.
:11:05. > :11:08.Any leader has to think about the options. Is the US or Britain
:11:08. > :11:12.giving assurances to Pakistan about the situation? Are they going to be
:11:12. > :11:15.helpful to us after 2014 or are we to fend for ourselves? These are
:11:15. > :11:21.questions which the Army and the government must be considering and
:11:21. > :11:24.do not judge them. I would not begrudge them anything. I want to
:11:24. > :11:34.establish that why is it that the best intelligence says to us that
:11:34. > :11:39.
:11:39. > :11:43.the decision-making body of the Taliban meets in Pakistan. It was
:11:43. > :11:53.true before and it is true today. I wonder why you believe that is?
:11:53. > :12:06.
:12:06. > :12:16.That is nonsense. Nonsense? Yes. Air surveillance was all the CIA.
:12:16. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:24.This is a mirage. This is what people say and what you think.
:12:24. > :12:27.There is a refugee camp of about 100,000 people outside the capital.
:12:27. > :12:31.It is possible that people across the border come and stay there
:12:31. > :12:41.because this is a strategic place. But if you think there is a
:12:41. > :12:42.
:12:42. > :12:47.conference table of the Taliban around, this is nonsense. I do not
:12:47. > :12:50.think the leader... This is what you said about Osama Bin Laden, I
:12:50. > :12:53.suppose? I did not know. He happened to be there. Bad luck.
:12:53. > :13:01.you saying to me that you believe the relationship between Pakistan
:13:01. > :13:11.and the US has fundamentally broken down? You really believe it has
:13:11. > :13:14.
:13:15. > :13:18.broken down entirely? The leader has no reason to be in Pakistan. He
:13:18. > :13:28.has never been in Pakistan. He has always been in Kandahar province.
:13:28. > :13:28.
:13:28. > :13:36.He is a leader of the Taliban. There is a resurgence of the
:13:36. > :13:42.Taliban. He has support in the countryside in the east. Why would
:13:42. > :13:52.he be there? He is a leader of the Taliban. Why would he be in
:13:52. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:29.Pakistan and not in his own The outcome is going to be a
:14:29. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:41.Taliban lead Afghanistan. They two possibilities. There were about 10
:14:41. > :14:51.different factions fighting amongst themselves. Ora in 19196, where
:14:51. > :14:57.
:14:57. > :15:01.they were Taliban in -- and the Northern Alliance. -- 1996. We will
:15:01. > :15:07.go back to those two situations. Each one of them will impact the
:15:07. > :15:11.current situation in Pakistan. we have not mentioned is Pakistan's
:15:11. > :15:21.preoccupation with India. You refused India and anti- Pakistan
:15:21. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:33.Afghanistan. If you go historically, there is evidence that India is
:15:33. > :15:38.
:15:38. > :15:47.interfering in Afghanistan. There is a tremendous amount of evidence.
:15:47. > :15:57.What is the consulate metaphor. They have some prior interest. They
:15:57. > :16:02.
:16:02. > :16:07.on the boarder of Pakistan. No-one has come to Pakistan. They have
:16:08. > :16:17.been indoctrinated and they are being sent back. We can't
:16:18. > :16:19.
:16:20. > :16:27.physically stop anti- aircraft missiles. Who is giving these
:16:27. > :16:37.people the weapons? You feel that Pakistan is duty bound to continue
:16:37. > :16:43.to meddle because of an Indian presence? You have a recipe for a
:16:43. > :16:53.permanent conflict. Certainly with India, and Afghanistan becomes the
:16:53. > :16:55.
:16:55. > :17:03.crucible for it. Is it time for you to overcome your paranoia about
:17:03. > :17:07.India? If you believed that the security threats posed by Pakistan
:17:07. > :17:14.today are so grave, and clearly you do, and that Pakistan's domestic
:17:14. > :17:24.situation is powerless. If you went back to Pakistan, would you want to
:17:24. > :17:27.see the military takeover again? not at all. I believe that
:17:27. > :17:35.political change, through political means, and ensuring that the
:17:35. > :17:39.government comes through the political process through elections.
:17:39. > :17:48.A government which understands the problems. That is my idea. Not
:17:48. > :17:57.military conscription. You said that there was despondency in
:17:57. > :18:02.Pakistan, and that people should go to the military. You said that the
:18:02. > :18:08.saviour was the army. Sounds like a man that is keen to see the army
:18:08. > :18:18.back in politics. No, immediately after that I said that the army
:18:18. > :18:22.
:18:22. > :18:28.should not take over. You picture a country in disarray. You say that
:18:28. > :18:32.you have solutions. I had been the President of Pakistan for nine
:18:32. > :18:40.years and I know the solutions. In my time, all socio-economic
:18:40. > :18:47.indicators of Pakistan were positive. Each one of them, for the
:18:47. > :18:51.people and for the country. And the social economic indicator I will
:18:51. > :18:56.answer. Here is one indicator, Transparency International, looks
:18:56. > :18:58.at worldwide corruption and perception across the world.
:18:58. > :19:08.Pakistan, during your leadership, sank according to Transparency
:19:08. > :19:12.
:19:12. > :19:22.International. Corruption had reduced, and there was no
:19:22. > :19:24.
:19:24. > :19:27.corruption at all. He said that national wealth was looted. There
:19:27. > :19:33.is not a single corruption charge against me or my government when I
:19:33. > :19:39.was there. Whoever has written this judgement of my time is talking
:19:39. > :19:42.nonsense and I take serious exception to it. I did not say that
:19:42. > :19:44.you were taking personal allegations of corruption, just
:19:44. > :19:52.that Transparency International reported that national wealth was
:19:52. > :20:00.looted by national hands. You took many measures which did question
:20:00. > :20:10.your commitment. You locked up the chief justice. Are you talking of
:20:10. > :20:11.
:20:11. > :20:14.corruption, or something else? spoke about the chief minister.
:20:14. > :20:24.When you report and reference somebody, make sure you understand
:20:24. > :20:25.
:20:25. > :20:30.whose report you are giving. We are just trying to ascertain what you
:20:30. > :20:34.would try to bring to a future Pakistan. It is not about rhetoric
:20:34. > :20:36.or a record, you locked up the chief justice. The lawyers of
:20:37. > :20:46.Pakistan believe that you have declared war on the chief
:20:47. > :20:49.
:20:49. > :20:59.prosecutor. Will you bring that to Pakistan? You don't regard
:20:59. > :21:01.
:21:01. > :21:06.challenging the notion of independency as anti-democratic?
:21:06. > :21:12.clearly means money involvement. Is that the issue you are talking
:21:12. > :21:15.about? It is absolutely different. At the time that I moved in March
:21:15. > :21:24.against the Chief Justice, that was a reference sent to me again
:21:24. > :21:30.alleging allegations against him. I sent the matters to the Supreme
:21:30. > :21:34.Council, which I did because it was a constitutional act. Pakistani
:21:34. > :21:37.politics are in a state of ferment. The only new politician on the
:21:37. > :21:46.scene who is attracting support, with rallies and large-crowd
:21:46. > :21:53.appearances is Imran Khan. His message is that the older politics
:21:53. > :22:02.in Pakistan were ruled by a mafia. Politics in Pakistan in the past,
:22:03. > :22:10.if you were in them, you were a criminal. He was aiming that at
:22:10. > :22:17.you? No, I have never been a politician. You were the President
:22:17. > :22:23.of Pakistan? Yes. We're talking about territorial issues, but not
:22:23. > :22:26.the key issues. What does governing the country mean? The people and
:22:26. > :22:28.the faith. You take poverty, employment, health,
:22:28. > :22:38.telecommunications, industry, economy, talk to me about those
:22:38. > :22:47.
:22:47. > :22:57.issues. That is where we succeeded. That is what I did. If you talk
:22:57. > :23:00.
:23:00. > :23:03.about Imran Khan, he does not know governance. How can he report on
:23:03. > :23:06.those things? If you go home you face arrest because there are
:23:06. > :23:12.charges against you for not protecting the former Prime
:23:13. > :23:16.Minister Benazir Bhutto from assasination. It is the chief
:23:16. > :23:23.minister who is responsible for that, it is not the responsibility
:23:23. > :23:33.for the President to have executive authority for security issues.
:23:33. > :23:36.
:23:36. > :23:39.is the prime minister. All those years that you were guiding the
:23:39. > :23:43.relationship with the United States and the war against Islamist
:23:43. > :23:48.militants, you had no authority? For the first three years, yes the
:23:48. > :23:58.Supreme Court of Pakistan gave me three years. I was the prime
:23:58. > :24:04.
:24:04. > :24:12.minister, the army chief, the chairmen etc. At that time, if the