:00:09. > :00:13.Those are the headlines. Time now for HARDtalk.
:00:13. > :00:17.Has the age of protest delivered a new way of doing politics in
:00:17. > :00:21.Germany? When the Pirate Party won 15 seats in the state parliament in
:00:21. > :00:24.September it was a political sensation that rocked the country.
:00:24. > :00:29.The party campaigned for all data to be made public, free internet
:00:29. > :00:33.access and free public transport. It is a young party with supporters
:00:33. > :00:38.who believe citizens should have a say in shaping the Government using
:00:38. > :00:41.the internet. Can the leader of the Pirate Party, Sebastian Nerz,
:00:41. > :00:51.transform his movement from a protest party into a lasting
:00:51. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:18.political force? Sebastian Nerz, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:18. > :01:27.You were as shocked as everyone else when you won nearly 9% as the
:01:27. > :01:37.vote. We assumed we would get 5% and into the parliament but 9% we
:01:37. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:41.did not expect. Do you think you deserve such an electoral success
:01:41. > :01:49.when you see other established parties only getting 2% of the
:01:49. > :01:56.vote? Depends what you mean by deserve. I believe the established
:01:56. > :02:02.parties in Germany are doing things wrong. They have no links to the
:02:02. > :02:12.people anymore. They're doing politics in a way that does not
:02:12. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:20.represent Germany anymore. think you represent Germany? I
:02:20. > :02:28.believe that we are linked to the way in which the citizens of
:02:28. > :02:38.Germany are communicating. Your candidates range in age from
:02:38. > :02:45.
:02:45. > :02:55.19 to 41. Do you think young people can represent everyone? People are
:02:55. > :03:04.
:03:04. > :03:13.facing tough times. Established parties have no solutions to
:03:13. > :03:17.present. They have led us into these problems so we need new ideas.
:03:17. > :03:27.Let's look at one of your ideas that you campaigned for. Free
:03:27. > :03:31.
:03:31. > :03:41.internet access. It will help people to provide education. The
:03:41. > :03:57.
:03:57. > :04:01.internet provides information. For example, Wikipedia. What is new
:04:01. > :04:10.about that? It is not just the Pirate Party who say that the
:04:10. > :04:14.internet is a useful tour for education and communication.
:04:14. > :04:22.Government says the internet is useful but they do not want to do
:04:22. > :04:29.everything to make sure people can access it. People also want jobs,
:04:29. > :04:33.don't they? Unemployment for young people in Germany is not as bad as
:04:33. > :04:43.it is in other countries but will this be delivering people what they
:04:43. > :04:44.
:04:44. > :04:48.need? Yes, they want jobs. To get jobs
:04:49. > :04:52.they need education. German industry are always saying they
:04:52. > :05:02.need more educated people. They do not need people standing and doing
:05:02. > :05:08.
:05:08. > :05:15.trivial jobs. They need educated people. Also you say that you want
:05:15. > :05:21.the free flow of information and freedom of expression. Are there no
:05:21. > :05:24.limits to this freedom of expression? Freedom is always
:05:24. > :05:34.defined as much freedom as you can have that does not affect someone
:05:34. > :05:38.
:05:38. > :05:45.else. You should not tell lies or insult people. So there are limits?
:05:45. > :05:55.No defamation, no libel. What other limits would there be? In Germany
:05:55. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:10.there are limits. For example denial of the Holocaust. Hate
:06:10. > :06:17.speech? Yes. If I tell you what Gregory Engels said, the former
:06:17. > :06:21.chairman of the Pirate Party on an international level. When people
:06:21. > :06:31.tried to close WikiLeaks, he said the Pirate Party would not accept
:06:31. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:44.any limits on free speech. But the information in WikiLeaks
:06:44. > :06:54.compromised the lives of people who may have given information to the
:06:54. > :07:07.
:07:07. > :07:11.military, for example. Is that acceptable to you? It is important
:07:11. > :07:21.to us that sources are protected. We do not publish information that
:07:21. > :07:24.
:07:24. > :07:31.endanger people. But WikiLeaks did not publish that information
:07:31. > :07:33.because they wanted to. They made serious errors. I believe the
:07:33. > :07:42.information they are publishing is important for society otherwise
:07:42. > :07:45.people cannot decide what is going on. So there are limits and
:07:45. > :07:54.paedophiles and people who use child pornography, there is no
:07:54. > :08:04.freedom of speech for them? That is correct. What is different about
:08:04. > :08:06.
:08:06. > :08:16.your message? Many governments say they want to give people free
:08:16. > :08:22.
:08:22. > :08:28.laptops. Our policy is not about deciding what is right or wrong but
:08:28. > :08:34.communicating with the people. We don't need a parliament sitting in
:08:34. > :08:44.the ivory tower that is not communicating with the people. We
:08:44. > :08:51.
:08:51. > :08:55.need the people to be able to participate in political processes.
:08:55. > :09:04.You also want the abolition of patents and copyrights? You have
:09:04. > :09:09.run into considerable controversy over this. If is about changing the
:09:09. > :09:18.way copyright is working. We have seen more serious laws over the
:09:18. > :09:22.last few years. If you compare laws in Germany with the ones we had at
:09:22. > :09:32.the turn of the 20th century we see that artists and consumers are the
:09:32. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:47.losers. There is something we have to change. You want consumers to
:09:47. > :09:47.
:09:47. > :09:56.consume content on the internet for free? It is not about free
:09:56. > :10:01.consumption. It is about a new way of copyrights. We have to find new
:10:01. > :10:11.ways. A lot of artists have said, what will we do to finance
:10:11. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:25.ourselves and our creativity? How can artists live? It is one of the
:10:25. > :10:30.main questions that needs to be answered for copyright. But the way
:10:30. > :10:33.copyrights are working now does not allow artists to live. It is only a
:10:33. > :10:39.small percentage of artists that can live from their work, however
:10:39. > :10:49.much they are selling. It is large corporations who are making the
:10:49. > :10:51.money. Large corporations would say they invest a lot in artists.
:10:51. > :10:54.Reverting to your point about traditional politicians having
:10:54. > :11:04.failed. You say they are neglecting basic civil rights for people in
:11:04. > :11:09.
:11:09. > :11:19.Germany. What do you mean? right to demonstrate. There had
:11:19. > :11:22.been serious restrictions placed in the last 20 years. In one city if
:11:22. > :11:27.we take the law literally it would be illegal for more than three
:11:27. > :11:37.people to gather in one public place. It does not allow for
:11:37. > :11:42.
:11:42. > :11:48.spontaneous demonstrations. You are also opposed to surveillance? You
:11:48. > :11:51.think there has been too much in Germany, but don't you need that?
:11:51. > :12:01.You need a certain amount of surveillance but not too much.
:12:01. > :12:05.
:12:05. > :12:11.People will feel insecure if there is too much. People who are under
:12:11. > :12:14.surveillance act differently. you see recently in eastern Germany
:12:14. > :12:24.that the authorities uncovered a neo-Nazi cell that they believe is
:12:24. > :12:27.
:12:27. > :12:32.responsible for 10 deaths. The German people are outraged that
:12:32. > :12:38.this went undetected. That case would suggest that there is not
:12:38. > :12:42.enough surveillance going on in Germany. This gang has been known
:12:42. > :12:52.to authorities for ten years. More surveillance would not have changed
:12:52. > :12:56.
:12:56. > :13:06.anything. There was a German who was under surveillance and has been
:13:06. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:22.charged with being a member of al- Qaeda. He was found without the use
:13:22. > :13:30.
:13:30. > :13:33.of data retention so we do not need data retention. You have academic
:13:33. > :13:39.studies in Germany saying they might be as many as 5,600 neo-Nazi
:13:39. > :13:49.extremists who might pose a problem to society.
:13:49. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :13:58.I'm not saying we do not need surveillance. There have been large
:13:58. > :14:08.studies showing that CCTV in living areas does not mean any decrease in
:14:08. > :14:13.
:14:13. > :14:23.crime levels. They show an effect in parking spots. We should use
:14:23. > :14:35.
:14:35. > :14:38.them there but we do not need them You do not really know the extent
:14:38. > :14:43.of the surveillance that is needed to ensure the neo-Nazis do not
:14:43. > :14:48.attack people. What you are saying is that you think it is a good
:14:48. > :14:51.thing to say. No. The fact that the federal agencies know about these
:14:51. > :15:00.people shows that the amount of surveillance that we have in
:15:00. > :15:02.Germany is more than enough. The fact is that studies made over the
:15:02. > :15:05.last few years showing that additional surveillance that was
:15:05. > :15:11.installed in the last year since 9/11 showed no decrease, no
:15:11. > :15:20.decrease whatsoever, in crime levels in Germany. It shows that
:15:20. > :15:25.surveillance methods are useless. You have talked about the need for
:15:25. > :15:28.greater transparency in surveillance and so on. If I ask
:15:29. > :15:32.you about the 14,000 members of the Pirate Party, you have been in
:15:32. > :15:41.existence since 2006, do you know if there are any members of neo-
:15:41. > :15:45.Nazi groups? We have two people I know who have been members of the
:15:45. > :15:52.National Democratic Party. Which is a far-right party that some people
:15:52. > :16:02.want banned. It is a very right- wing extremist party. I believe
:16:02. > :16:12.that people can change. Those two members were Valentin Seipt, he was
:16:12. > :16:12.
:16:13. > :16:16.a district chairman, and Mathias Bahner was a member. When these two
:16:16. > :16:23.cases came up, you said that not every member of the National
:16:23. > :16:33.Democratic Party is a neo-Nazi. If someone was a thug or an official
:16:33. > :16:34.
:16:34. > :16:37.in the NPD, that is more serious. Do you stand by that - that not
:16:37. > :16:40.everyone in the National Democratic Party is a neo-Nazi? There are some
:16:40. > :16:45.young people who enter the National Democratic party without knowing
:16:45. > :16:55.what they are up to. Most of them leave the party after one month or
:16:55. > :16:58.two months after realising what kind of people they are. You say
:16:58. > :17:02.they did not quite understand because they were too young to
:17:02. > :17:05.appreciate what they are joining. But you represent young people,
:17:05. > :17:15.most of your members are young, don't they know what they are
:17:15. > :17:16.
:17:16. > :17:19.doing? For example a 16... He was 18. They make make mistakes.
:17:19. > :17:29.the young people in your party making mistakes? I talked about
:17:29. > :17:32.
:17:32. > :17:37.Susanne Graf, she is 19. Everybody is making mistakes, that is human
:17:37. > :17:41.behaviour. The problem is that the NPD has been one of the most
:17:41. > :17:45.effective parties in recruiting young people. It sounds that you,
:17:45. > :17:55.as the leader of the German Pirate Party, are taking a relaxed view of
:17:55. > :17:55.
:17:55. > :18:05.this issue of neo-Nazi membership. Given German history, the Pirate
:18:05. > :18:09.
:18:10. > :18:15.Party could suffer heavily from this. With Matthias Bahner, he has
:18:15. > :18:21.been asked to give up his seat in the parliament. He has been a
:18:21. > :18:26.member of the NPD. The problem is that the laws do not allow us to
:18:27. > :18:33.force him to give up his seat. you understand what Juergen Falter
:18:33. > :18:39.says? You have to clean up this problem. Yes. Are you really doing
:18:39. > :18:49.it? Another member of the Pirate Party, Bodo Thiesen, he cites
:18:49. > :18:52.
:18:52. > :18:57.Holocaust deniers on his website. Some members of your own party,
:18:57. > :19:06.like Wolfgang Dudda, are very angry. They are totally appalled that the
:19:06. > :19:09.process to reject him has taken so long. When the Pirate Party was
:19:09. > :19:13.founded, and the way that the internal core of the party is
:19:13. > :19:23.working, they are expelling someone from the party, the order that we
:19:23. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :19:38.chose is not working. Are you sorting out the problem? Now I
:19:38. > :19:44.believe that he's expulsion from the party will be entered this year.
:19:44. > :19:48.So you will throw him out? Yes. say that the traditional parties
:19:48. > :19:53.have failed to give solutions to the problems. One of the solutions
:19:53. > :20:00.that you give is free unlimited public transport to people. Have
:20:00. > :20:08.you worked out how expensive that is going to be? Each household in
:20:08. > :20:16.Berlin will have to pay, it will be paid by a tax. So people have to
:20:16. > :20:19.pay extra? Yes, of course. So are you going to say to people that you
:20:19. > :20:29.have to pay, when they are feeling squeezed? A lot of people are
:20:29. > :20:30.
:20:30. > :20:40.already using public transport. Do you know what Berlin's state debt
:20:40. > :20:43.
:20:43. > :20:47.is? It is roughly 64 billion euros. Andreas Baum, one of your
:20:47. > :20:57.candidates, when he was asked this, he said it is many millions. It is
:20:57. > :20:59.
:20:59. > :21:02.actually billions. And do you think that you offer a new way, a new
:21:02. > :21:06.vision, when it comes to solving the financial crisis, or the euro
:21:06. > :21:09.crisis? Angela Merkel has said this is the biggest challenge to Europe
:21:09. > :21:13.since the Second World War. Angela Merkel is always citing things as
:21:13. > :21:18.the most challenging problem so far. It is a way of doing politics.
:21:18. > :21:24.Quite often, she does not propose a solution. What is your solution?
:21:24. > :21:33.do not have a solution. You don't have a solution to the biggest
:21:33. > :21:38.problem that people are talking about at the moment? It is a
:21:38. > :21:48.question of the moment. It will not be a question later. So you are a
:21:48. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:56.protest movement. No. We will have to answer questions such as solving
:21:56. > :21:59.the euro crisis. People said that about the Green Party. But they
:21:59. > :22:02.become part of the political establishment. Their leader said,
:22:02. > :22:07.solutions need compromises. You are now in the state parliament in
:22:07. > :22:12.Berlin. I think it is about talking to the people. Letting them
:22:12. > :22:16.participate in politics. It is not about Members of Parliament
:22:17. > :22:24.deciding what is right. They have to talk to the people in order to
:22:24. > :22:30.get to solutions. How? Have town hall meetings? Have a referendum?
:22:30. > :22:37.Yes, all of them. A referendum is the hardest yes-no question you can
:22:37. > :22:47.ask. It is the end of a political pr pr have to let the people
:22:47. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:52.participate during the process. they help devise policies? They are
:22:52. > :23:02.consultation processes at the moment that all governments have.
:23:02. > :23:08.No, not really. I do not know what to call them. So more direct
:23:08. > :23:14.communication between the politicians and people? Yes.
:23:15. > :23:18.that is your big idea. In 30 seconds, what is it? I believe we
:23:18. > :23:21.have to change the way that politics is working, to a more open
:23:21. > :23:25.style of politics, to a more transparent style, to help people
:23:25. > :23:35.to participate, and we have to start a society where people can
:23:35. > :23:42.