:00:31. > :00:34.dollars of the budget deficit. Egypt is in turmoil. A power-
:00:34. > :00:43.struggle between the military and the people is playing out on the
:00:43. > :00:50.streets. HARDtalk is on the road in a country desperate for a fresh
:00:50. > :01:00.start. A political and economic. Revolution carries a price. Are
:01:00. > :01:01.
:01:02. > :01:07.Egyptians ready to pay it? People here want radical change,
:01:07. > :01:13.not just in politics, but in the economy also. Workers are pushing
:01:13. > :01:18.for better pay and conditions. The jobless are demanding work. And
:01:18. > :01:23.everyone wants to see an end to the era of endemic corruption. The
:01:23. > :01:33.revelation faces a fundamental challenge. Can it deliver a new
:01:33. > :01:38.economic deal for Egypt? Slowly, painstakingly, Egyptians
:01:38. > :01:46.are trying to piece together a new nation. The politically free,
:01:46. > :01:51.economic clear revitalised. -- economically. This fact we ought to
:01:51. > :01:55.be an inspiration. The family-run business employs more than 1,000
:01:55. > :02:02.workers, turning out fabrics and furniture exported to a host of the
:02:02. > :02:08.world's best known stores. For 20 years, the founder has backed his
:02:08. > :02:13.faith in Egypt's economic potential by investing his own money. But
:02:13. > :02:20.since January, overseas orders have fallen by up to 50%. International
:02:20. > :02:24.partners are worried. Is the continuing revolutionary turmoil
:02:24. > :02:33.bad for business? Welcome to HARDtalk. The last year
:02:33. > :02:42.in Egypt has been a time of turmoil. A sense of uncertainty and
:02:42. > :02:52.instability. Has that affected the business climate? Foreshore. This
:02:52. > :02:52.
:02:53. > :02:56.situation is very difficult for us to read what is coming. Most of the
:02:56. > :03:01.Egyptian people stopped making any new investment. They are afraid of
:03:01. > :03:06.what is coming. All of them are saying, wait until everything has
:03:06. > :03:10.settled. We have not seen any improvement because nobody wants to
:03:10. > :03:13.make any decisions right now. has been over many years a
:03:14. > :03:18.consistent message that Egypt is being held back by corruption at
:03:18. > :03:24.the top, by the need for kickbacks and sweeteners and bribes to be
:03:24. > :03:34.paid to government officials. Everyone knows that it is not easy
:03:34. > :03:40.
:03:40. > :03:44.getting your licence, your permissions to do easy work. There
:03:44. > :03:50.is always someone asking for something in to give you your
:03:50. > :03:54.licence. You can spend a few years waiting to start work. Did you have
:03:54. > :04:01.to offer sweeteners? Without offering these you will never move
:04:01. > :04:06.it forward. You have to pay to get your rights. This is what the
:04:06. > :04:13.problem was. It strikes me that fall of the political excitement
:04:13. > :04:18.around Tahrir Square and the revolution, this is the real front
:04:18. > :04:25.line because if Egypt can't fix its economy, offered jobs, particularly
:04:25. > :04:31.to young people, then this revolution can't succeed. You are
:04:31. > :04:35.right 100%. We need to depend on young people more in the future. We
:04:35. > :04:41.need to completely change with the new generation. We need to give
:04:41. > :04:48.them a different education. Vocational education. Training,
:04:48. > :04:54.supporting them to lead, giving them the right standard of living.
:04:55. > :04:59.We have talked about uncertainty affecting the business climate. Is
:04:59. > :05:09.it affecting the way you are looking at your business right now?
:05:09. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:17.Yes it is. I started a project one- and-a-half years ago and I invested
:05:17. > :05:24.�18 million -- Egyptian pounds in a factory close to hear. All of the
:05:24. > :05:30.machines and everything is ready to go. But we have to wait for the
:05:30. > :05:34.cables for the electricity. I have paid so much to start that up.
:05:34. > :05:40.can't start the project because there are so much uncertainty?
:05:40. > :05:48.are right. This is a fact. 240 new jobs there. But I'm afraid to start
:05:48. > :05:55.it. This situation, I don't know what will happen. Thank you.
:05:55. > :06:03.200 metres from his business, graphic evidence of Egypt's
:06:03. > :06:13.economic malaise. A factory closed, now derelict. In Egypt, grit has
:06:13. > :06:18.stalled and unemployment is right - - unemployment is rising. With its
:06:18. > :06:27.mean streets hugging the Mediterranean shore, Alexandria can
:06:27. > :06:32.still evoke memories of a golden age of cosmopolitan prosperity. But
:06:32. > :06:40.head away from the sea into the city's poorer neighbourhoods and
:06:40. > :06:44.you enter a very different world. In this neighbourhood in Alexandria,
:06:44. > :06:49.it is one of the poorest parts of the city. I have been invited here
:06:49. > :06:57.by local people to see how ordinary people have to live in Alexandria.
:06:57. > :07:02.We will go into the depths of the neighbourhood. It is very narrow.
:07:02. > :07:08.What we have our families living in a desperate conditions. Here, there
:07:08. > :07:18.is a family of six living in one room. We go into the neighbourhood
:07:18. > :07:19.
:07:19. > :07:23.a bit further. We find a toilet. This toilet have to serve the
:07:23. > :07:28.entire building. There are dozens of people reliant on this one
:07:28. > :07:35.toilet. If we go a bit further, this lady has lived for 30 years
:07:35. > :07:45.she says inside his room with her family. This 27-year-old has lived
:07:45. > :08:09.
:08:09. > :08:17.here all his life. He is out of Four out of every 10 Egyptians live
:08:17. > :08:22.in poverty. For under a dollar a day. 50% of this nation's wealth is
:08:22. > :08:25.in the hands of an elite 5% of the population. If the revolution is to
:08:25. > :08:31.mean anything for the people who live in this neighbourhood, those
:08:31. > :08:35.numbers will have to change and change fast. The uncomfortable
:08:35. > :08:45.truth about the period since the Mubarak regime was toppled is that
:08:45. > :08:46.
:08:46. > :08:51.economic circumstances for people around here have not gotten better.
:08:51. > :08:55.Egypt's grim economics and turbulent politics come together.
:08:55. > :09:01.One of Egypt's strict Islamist parties is selling cheap meat to
:09:01. > :09:08.the needy. The upcoming Parliament election is clearly in mind. Beef
:09:08. > :09:14.is sold for little more than half the normal shop price. Is this the
:09:14. > :09:19.opportunist politics of poverty? have been doing this a long time,
:09:19. > :09:24.but we were prevented by the authorities. They have been aiming
:09:24. > :09:34.us to give us a bad image in the media. Giving charity to people and
:09:34. > :09:34.
:09:34. > :09:37.giving them cheap food giving us a good image. That is bad for the old
:09:37. > :09:41.authority. The critics would say you are exploiting the poverty of
:09:41. > :09:47.the people to buy their votes with cheap food. Is this your way of
:09:47. > :09:53.buying votes? We have been doing this for 30 years. We had done this
:09:53. > :09:59.before but went to jail. Everyone knows this. One votes were we
:09:59. > :10:09.buying them? Maybe he wed buying boats then, but you are buying
:10:09. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:16.boats now. If you're doing the same job, the same thing, what is the
:10:16. > :10:21.change? But it is a very strange form of democracy if your main
:10:21. > :10:29.attraction to the people is to say, vote for this party and we will
:10:29. > :10:36.give you cheap food. That is not a strong political argument. We are
:10:36. > :10:45.not only giving food but help. What are the other parties doing?
:10:45. > :10:51.Nothing. They might be saying slogans but you don't find them
:10:51. > :10:58.doing anything. Across Egypt, levels of economic discontent are
:10:58. > :11:03.rising. A recent poll found 40% of people saying it was very hard to
:11:03. > :11:13.get by on their current income. A wave of industrial unrest is
:11:13. > :11:13.
:11:13. > :11:20.sweeping the country. Arriving in Cairo, I find riot police barring
:11:20. > :11:27.access to a government ministry. The reason is a strike over pay and
:11:27. > :11:31.conditions. The very police man reviled for brutalising democracy
:11:31. > :11:37.protesters have now themselves taken to the streets. They want
:11:37. > :11:40.more pay and better conditions. They have blocked the road outside
:11:40. > :11:50.the Interior Ministry. I will talk to some of them and see what they
:11:50. > :11:57.
:11:57. > :12:07.grievances are. Why are the policeman so unhappy? We don't have
:12:07. > :12:23.
:12:23. > :12:33.How much money do you get for one What about the SCAF? De believe
:12:33. > :12:46.
:12:46. > :12:55.they will help you will not? -- in The police are in revolt. Nothing
:12:55. > :13:00.better sums up the economic chaos of Egypt after the revolution. This
:13:00. > :13:07.is 1,000 km south of Cairo. Life unfolds at a different pace.
:13:07. > :13:13.Dictated by the grace and beauty of the Nile. Even here, a chill
:13:13. > :13:19.economic wind is blowing. Tourism has been hard hit since the
:13:19. > :13:24.revolution. Numbers are down by more than one-third. Cruise boats
:13:24. > :13:30.are tied up. In the long run, the revolution may
:13:30. > :13:35.be remaking Egypt but in the short run, it has been extraordinarily
:13:35. > :13:39.bad for the tourism business. Political upheaval, tension and
:13:39. > :13:47.street violence have kept many visitors and their wallets away
:13:47. > :13:54.from the country. Here on the Nile and made all of the wonderful
:13:54. > :13:58.ancient antiquities, those ed.
:13:58. > :14:05.This table is an extraordinary monument to ancient Egyptian
:14:05. > :14:10.artistry. -- temple. These days, you don't have to endure heeding --
:14:10. > :14:15.heaving crowds to see it. We found out the Egyptians were possibly the
:14:15. > :14:20.first in the history to explore the Nile. The tour guides are still
:14:20. > :14:26.here, their stories are compelling, but the audiences are small. How
:14:26. > :14:33.would you describe the last year? Particularly the months since the
:14:33. > :14:37.revelation -- revolution in terms of business? Very difficult. It is
:14:37. > :14:47.an intermediate period. Things are not stable. They started to get
:14:47. > :14:51.
:14:51. > :14:55.better for a while but it has its But is it because there is such a
:14:55. > :15:01.sense of uncertainty? People normally go where they feel safe.
:15:02. > :15:05.You would not take your kids way you do not feel safe. Media focus
:15:05. > :15:15.on Egypt so whatever happens here shows within minutes around the
:15:15. > :15:15.
:15:15. > :15:21.world. People hope that will change. When a tourist numbers are down, it
:15:21. > :15:28.has a huge impact, not just on particular sites like this bar one
:15:28. > :15:32.of the wider economy. The first time any tourist things of visiting
:15:33. > :15:42.a country like Egypt, he makes his booking. The money goes to a
:15:43. > :15:43.
:15:43. > :15:46.company. He takes taxis, he buys from shops, he goes to restaurants.
:15:46. > :15:52.That money goes straight from his pocket to these people that he
:15:52. > :15:57.needs every day or every other day. What do you want from the next
:15:57. > :16:04.generation of Egyptian leaders? People that feel the pain of the
:16:05. > :16:10.people. To know that at least 40% of Egyptians live under the poverty
:16:10. > :16:14.line. To know that there are a lot of problems in the educational and
:16:15. > :16:21.medical fields. You have been through tough times in your
:16:21. > :16:30.business and city. There is still a sense of uncertainty here? Are you
:16:30. > :16:40.optimistic? Ferry. There is no 100% trust -- ferry. You cannot get that.
:16:40. > :16:42.
:16:42. > :16:45.No. The Mubarak dynasty than Egypt as a family business. Swiss banks
:16:45. > :16:52.froze hundreds of millions of dollars in his account. They
:16:52. > :16:59.embrace capitalism, are on their terms. -- Butt. Now the cracks are
:16:59. > :17:05.beginning to show. There is wealth in Egypt but it has not spread. The
:17:05. > :17:11.old economic order looks increasingly unsustainable. Now,
:17:11. > :17:18.when one of the country's richest men, whose family founded a big
:17:18. > :17:24.conglomerates, looks out of his suite and sees a city convulsed by
:17:24. > :17:31.political violence and a future shrouded in uncertainty. Welcome to
:17:31. > :17:36.HARDtalk. Thank you. Does Egypt need an economic revolution?
:17:36. > :17:42.but we are now at a standstill. We cannot have a revolution when you
:17:42. > :17:48.do not have a government that is sustainable. We are waiting for the
:17:48. > :17:52.elections to choose a new government. How can we have a
:17:52. > :18:01.revolution it economically if you do not have the government to share
:18:01. > :18:07.in this? So you are suggesting for the ten months since the free --
:18:07. > :18:12.revolution, the country has been in a limbo? Exactly. It is difficult
:18:13. > :18:22.for anybody to achieve anything. Nobody is signing anything. It
:18:23. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:33.could be misunderstood. We suffer, from democracy, because we cannot
:18:33. > :18:42.justified approvals. Nothing is being done. Who is going to invest
:18:42. > :18:46.in a country that has a temporary government that is very weak? It
:18:46. > :18:50.has gone back on many of its investment promises to investors
:18:50. > :18:57.who came on good faith. It seems across the country a groundswell of
:18:57. > :19:02.support for the idea of reversing some of the economic liberalisation
:19:02. > :19:08.policies we saw in the years of the Mubarak regime, because people
:19:08. > :19:13.believe those policies were a form of crony capitalism. His family
:19:13. > :19:23.were helping their friends. They want to see those policies undone.
:19:23. > :19:23.
:19:23. > :19:33.That is fair enough, isn't it? Egypt has adapted the free economic
:19:33. > :19:34.
:19:34. > :19:39.pattern. We have adapted and Investment... Let's say an active
:19:39. > :19:45.role for investors to come and provided the environment to create
:19:45. > :19:50.jobs... But there wasn't free. It was based upon corruption. We now
:19:50. > :19:56.know of the corrupt deals was part of every day... How do you know
:19:56. > :20:03.that? How else can you explain that there are hundreds of millions of
:20:03. > :20:07.US dollars in bank accounts of the Mubarak family? Somebody was
:20:07. > :20:13.putting it there. Most of this is outside of the privatisation
:20:13. > :20:22.programme. When he talked to someone who knows the system or
:20:22. > :20:27.invested in it. I am not here to defend the Mubarak family. Are we
:20:27. > :20:32.have never been subjected to any pressure to make any payments to
:20:32. > :20:36.any member of his family. You never had to pay sweeteners to get
:20:36. > :20:41.permits ordeals? You run the biggest telecommunications business
:20:41. > :20:47.in this country. We are industrialists. Most of our work
:20:47. > :20:53.has been built on building factories. We did not participate
:20:53. > :21:00.in the privatisation programme. We have built everything from scratch.
:21:00. > :21:07.You still need permits. On the low level. It was never a political
:21:07. > :21:12.licence. Your plea for greater entrepreneurial spirits and for new
:21:12. > :21:15.investment, overseas and domestic, how is there going to be delivered
:21:15. > :21:19.when your first point to me was that this economy is in limbo,
:21:19. > :21:24.there is no leadership or strategy and nobody knows where this economy
:21:24. > :21:30.is going. It is not going to happen. This country will go bust in a few
:21:30. > :21:34.months. Who is going to invest when you do not have stability? You do
:21:34. > :21:40.not have a democratically elected governments, the police are on
:21:40. > :21:48.strike, the lawyers and judges are on strike. UK into Egypt with the
:21:48. > :21:53.most attractive time. -- UK. are smiling but you have just said
:21:53. > :21:57.the most disturbing thing. You said this country is going bust. That
:21:57. > :22:03.means the revolution is going to go bust as well. If the economy goes
:22:03. > :22:10.down, all the dreams of the Egyptian people... Because the
:22:10. > :22:15.revolution and the people here should give Egypt a break. They
:22:15. > :22:22.should stop demonstrating and striking. The country cannot afford
:22:22. > :22:25.to give them anything. With respect, it is easy for you to say here on
:22:25. > :22:32.the 26th floor of the finest Office building in Cairo and Sami people
:22:32. > :22:37.who have virtually nothing have to stop demanding more. I would
:22:37. > :22:44.understand demonstrating for something. It is not lawyers,
:22:44. > :22:51.judges, engineers, doctors, factory workers. People from the telephone
:22:51. > :22:56.company striking have the highest salaries in any public sector. If
:22:57. > :23:02.any people in the poor slums strike I understand. The nurses people of
:23:02. > :23:08.Egypt are the poorest. -- nicest. They do not complain. They take a
:23:08. > :23:13.lot of hardship. The ones who once more are the ones who have. We need
:23:13. > :23:18.to give the country a break to survive. Do you think survival is
:23:18. > :23:27.at stake now? There is a real possibility this country could go
:23:27. > :23:33.under. We did not see any of the $30 billion from the European
:23:33. > :23:38.community. We have seen nothing from that. The Arab countries have
:23:38. > :23:43.talks a lot about that bar have not done that yet. Why? In my opinion
:23:43. > :23:50.they do not want this revolution to succeed. If it succeeds, it is like
:23:50. > :23:55.a disease. Anything today is better than where we were. It is a great
:23:55. > :24:00.country. We will rise again. We will get out of this. I am not
:24:00. > :24:05.upset with the government or the Army. I am upset with my people. If
:24:05. > :24:09.he wants to change this country, people have to change. -- you want.
:24:09. > :24:18.You cannot go out and work for three hours a day and say you do
:24:18. > :24:26.not have any money. How long will it take to change the people? Thank
:24:26. > :24:34.you for being on HARDtalk. Tahrir Square is once again full of
:24:34. > :24:39.the fines. The protesters's goal is to end military rule -- defies.