:00:16. > :00:26.That's it from a fine now. It is time for HARDtalk. -- from me for
:00:26. > :00:31.
:00:31. > :00:39.now. Egypt back in political chaos, the protesters in Tahrir Square are
:00:39. > :00:46.calling it a second revolution. It is aimed at the military, they are
:00:46. > :00:52.accused of defrauding the will of the people. Who are the people?
:00:52. > :00:58.Egypt's revolution has exposed fault-lines within a population of
:00:58. > :01:08.18 million. One in ten Egyptians is Christian. In an era of deep
:01:08. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:20.uncertainty just how safe are Egypt's Coptic Christians? Egypt is
:01:20. > :01:27.one of the cradles of Christianity. The word Coptic is derived from the
:01:27. > :01:36.word Egypt itself. We find villages where Christians and Muslims have
:01:36. > :01:45.lived side-by-side for centuries. Not always in harmony. This is home
:01:45. > :01:49.to more than 3,000 people, one in ten Christian. This is the church.
:01:49. > :01:56.It has been ruined as is the end of September when it was attacked by
:01:57. > :02:02.an angry mob. The reason? They were building a larger and better church
:02:02. > :02:07.on the side of their old one. Some local Muslims saw that as a direct
:02:07. > :02:12.challenge to the restrictive laws imposed on Christian communities
:02:12. > :02:16.for the last 60 years. Under the watchful gaze of government
:02:16. > :02:26.intelligence agents I went to meet the Christian owner on the land on
:02:26. > :02:41.
:02:41. > :02:46.which the church stood. I asked him People had accepted the church for
:02:46. > :02:56.many years, you say that you had services here and no-one bothered
:02:56. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:28.you, suddenly the church was When this big crowd came into the
:03:28. > :03:39.
:03:39. > :03:45.village and started attacking the What affect has it had on you and
:03:45. > :03:55.your wife and your children? How has it affected your family and
:03:55. > :04:05.
:04:05. > :04:12.your Christian neighbours in the As a result of the attack on the
:04:12. > :04:17.Church it has found itself under national scrutiny. Why had Muslims
:04:17. > :04:23.reacted so furiously. Why had a local politicians look eager to
:04:23. > :04:31.cover the incident up? This local Muslim cleric gave me his side of
:04:31. > :04:41.the story. Let me ask you why? Why was the church, just 200 yards from
:04:41. > :04:56.
:04:56. > :05:02.here, why was it destroyed at the You say there was no church to
:05:02. > :05:05.start with, but of course there was a church. I have seen the church.
:05:05. > :05:15.Now it is destroyed. Are you prepared to say that you are sorry
:05:15. > :05:22.
:05:22. > :05:25.To be clear about it, you are saying very never was any attack by
:05:25. > :05:35.Muslims on the church and on Christians in this village? It
:05:35. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :06:16.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:06:17. > :06:21.My overriding impression on leaving this village is of suspicion and
:06:21. > :06:29.mistrust. The Christians accused the Muslims of lying about the
:06:29. > :06:34.destruction of their church. Who is telling the truth? Frankly, it is
:06:34. > :06:40.impossible to say. Having been tailed by the Egyptian security
:06:40. > :06:50.forces throughout our visit here, I can be sure that they do not want
:06:50. > :06:50.
:06:50. > :06:54.us to dig too deep. On 9th October thousands of Coptic Christians
:06:54. > :07:01.marched to the state television building in Cairo to protest about
:07:01. > :07:07.the destruction of the Church and the official response. We have
:07:07. > :07:13.obtained a graphic amateur video to show what happen next. The unarmed
:07:13. > :07:18.crowd was attacked. Several demonstrators were hit by sniper
:07:19. > :07:28.fire. In the mayhem, armoured vehicles carried down the street,
:07:29. > :07:31.
:07:31. > :07:36.crashing and chilling more protesters. -- crushing and killing.
:07:36. > :07:41.The injured and the dead were taken to nearby buildings. Some of the
:07:41. > :07:51.video footage is too disturbing to broadcast. 27 protesters, almost
:07:51. > :07:57.all of them Christians, were killed. On state television just metres
:07:57. > :08:07.from the violence, presenters suggested that cops were launching
:08:07. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:30.a violent attack on Egypt's armed The reporting on state TV has been
:08:30. > :08:35.condemned by a human rights groups as dangerously inflammatory. Why
:08:35. > :08:45.did it happen? A question for the minister of information in an
:08:45. > :09:01.
:09:01. > :09:09.interview before the Cabinet Are you aware that in the hours
:09:10. > :09:12.following the violence on the streets, Egypt's soldiers and
:09:12. > :09:17.intelligence officers were ransacking the buildings looking
:09:17. > :09:25.for Coptic Christians, demanding to see identification and arresting
:09:25. > :09:30.and obtain in anyone who was questioned. Are you aware of that?
:09:30. > :09:40.I have spoken to witnesses who told me that happened. They were just a
:09:40. > :09:50.
:09:50. > :09:53.But you are the Minister of Information, it amazes me that you
:09:53. > :09:59.know see it -- so little about an incident that was so damaging to
:09:59. > :10:09.the government, your government, you appear to be very poorly
:10:09. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :11:17.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:11:17. > :11:24.Human Rights Watch has called for the government in response to
:11:24. > :11:28.rising sectarian tensions in recent months, to launch a full-scale
:11:28. > :11:38.investigation of the legitimate grievances of Coptic Christians in
:11:38. > :11:41.
:11:41. > :11:46.this country. Are you saying that By now it is sensitive in Egypt,
:11:46. > :11:51.but the world is watching Egypt right now. We have had a report on
:11:51. > :11:54.religious freedom from the United States, saying since the January
:11:54. > :11:58.revolution there have been new dangers for minorities living in
:11:58. > :12:08.Egypt. I am asking whether the government is prepared to
:12:08. > :12:42.
:12:42. > :12:52.acknowledge there is a problem and Nobody outside of a jet is allowed
:12:52. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:25.to have an opinion of how Thank you for being on HARDtalk.
:13:25. > :13:32.Thank you. The haunting image of one of the Coptic Christians shot
:13:32. > :13:37.in the head on October 9th. This was a 20-year-old. A democracy
:13:37. > :13:41.activist and Tahrir Square veteran who had already been injured twice
:13:41. > :13:50.during the January revolution. In death he has become a symbol of the
:13:50. > :13:53.struggle for a new Egypt. This is where he lived. In this Cairo
:13:53. > :14:03.suburb where an established Christian community co-exists with
:14:03. > :14:08.
:14:08. > :14:15.His family have let his bedroom exactly what it was on the day he
:14:15. > :14:18.was killed. On the wall, loving notes from his sister's. On the
:14:18. > :14:27.desk, his battered computer on which he organised campaigns and
:14:27. > :14:34.pressures. His older sister, Mary, raced him. He was as much sun as
:14:34. > :14:40.brother. I know he had been wounded in degenerate revolution. Why did
:14:40. > :14:50.he feel it was so important to keep up the protest? -- January
:14:50. > :15:18.
:15:18. > :15:28.Mary, it is quite a few days since you learned of his death. What kind
:15:28. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :16:42.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:16:42. > :16:49.of impact has it had on you and the He cot you Orthodox Church does not
:16:49. > :16:54.welcome publicity or controversy. - - the Coptic Orthodox Church. For
:16:54. > :17:01.decades, church leaders have shown loyalty to Egypt's government and
:17:01. > :17:05.military. But is it time to end the stoic silence? We were invited to
:17:05. > :17:12.this monastery on the southern outskirts of Cairo for rape rare
:17:12. > :17:16.interview with the bishop. Bishop, will come to HARDtalk. The question
:17:16. > :17:22.is, when you look outside this monastery and at what is happening
:17:22. > :17:26.to Christians from the south to the north of your country, really, how
:17:26. > :17:36.would you describe the atmosphere that ordinary Coptic Christians are
:17:36. > :17:39.
:17:39. > :17:47.facing today? TRANSLATION: People feel there is not enough pace for
:17:47. > :17:54.Christians all was loans. Some Muslims have no tolerance. There
:17:54. > :17:58.are Islamic parties for example he clearly based their politics on
:17:58. > :18:07.their Muslim religious beliefs. Is that making it more difficult for
:18:07. > :18:17.the Christian one -- minority? encourage how Christian people and
:18:17. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:25.the Muslims to go to vote. Because if everybody is active in voting
:18:25. > :18:31.there may be good and moderate and wise people will be given
:18:31. > :18:36.responsibility. They will help the community and the country will be
:18:36. > :18:41.an Pays. What do you say to the family of the young man, the young
:18:41. > :18:46.Christian man, who was killed protesting against the disruption
:18:46. > :18:53.of a Christian church? He was killed in Cairo by the security
:18:53. > :19:03.forces. I have spoken to his family. They say they do not feel safe
:19:03. > :19:05.
:19:06. > :19:15.anymore in this country. What you say to them? I say to them, but he
:19:16. > :19:16.
:19:16. > :19:23.is a martyr. -- that he is. But how many martyrs must do be? We have a
:19:23. > :19:30.culture of martyrdom nowadays. Especially the people who work in
:19:30. > :19:33.the church. They feel it is a blessing gifted I got. Since the
:19:33. > :19:40.January revolution, Coptic Christians have been the victims of
:19:40. > :19:47.a spate of violent attacks. There is a real possibility that if next
:19:47. > :19:51.week's harlot Benchley election if it goes ahead will give a dominant
:19:51. > :19:59.voice to Sharia law. How should the Christian minority respond? I
:19:59. > :20:07.turned to this billionaire businessman, Coptic and outspoken
:20:07. > :20:13.secularist. He is funding a new party. It is being a problem of the
:20:13. > :20:21.cockpit people. They are not involved in the political arena. I
:20:21. > :20:27.consider myself, all my friends are Muslims, I was raised and Emerson
:20:27. > :20:35.house, I hardly had any Christian friends and I am completely
:20:35. > :20:39.integrated in my community. That is why I am popular. I am not breaking.
:20:39. > :20:45.But I am the most popular Christopher Munnion Muslims.
:20:45. > :20:50.Because I am not closed, I participate. I preserve my rights
:20:50. > :20:57.as an addiction. I do not differentiate between Muslims and
:20:57. > :21:07.Christians. 96% of the employees in my companies are more sommes.
:21:07. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:18.why do you think there is this closed mentality about Christians?
:21:18. > :21:26.Somehow people Risley - may perceive our religion as week. We
:21:26. > :21:31.give the other cheek. I do not do that. I work by the jury saying, an
:21:31. > :21:36.eye for an eye. If somebody Barnes My Lai, I break their legs stop
:21:36. > :21:44.what it is is it for you to say that because you are so powerful. I
:21:44. > :21:52.was not when I started. But you are now. Wife and the same guy the
:21:52. > :21:57.cockpit people should be more proactive. They should -- in the
:21:57. > :22:03.cockpit person who does not pursue any blame himself. Because then he
:22:03. > :22:09.is giving his vote to the other camp. 10 million votes can make a
:22:09. > :22:15.big difference. If they are up Liberals they should but for the
:22:15. > :22:20.Liberals. In the past, I have spent a lot of time in Iraq, and I saw
:22:20. > :22:24.Iraqi Christians giving up on the country. Many were killed. Many
:22:24. > :22:30.were discriminated against. Many decided they had no future in the
:22:30. > :22:36.country and if they could bow left. Is there a possibility that many of
:22:36. > :22:41.the Coptic people who are able to move will leave? Sure. If you look
:22:41. > :22:45.at the percentage of immigrants every year going to Canada or the
:22:45. > :22:50.nine states, they now must be Christians. Many of them are
:22:50. > :22:54.terrified. I went to the cathedral the day this massacre happened.
:22:54. > :22:59.People were asking whether I should go. It is a very serious issues
:23:00. > :23:09.stop to be blunt, do you think your community has a long-term future in
:23:10. > :23:13.
:23:13. > :23:21.Egypt? It is a country. I am going nowhere it is our country. Whoever
:23:21. > :23:31.things they will scare us of has to kill or be 10 million. Thank you
:23:31. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:39.very much for being on hard will. - Mark -- hard top. Egypt had a
:23:39. > :23:49.Church has long before it had moths. Christians here have a proud and
:23:49. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:54.ancient heritage, but what future do there have? -- Hard Talk. Out on