0:00:02 > 0:00:11Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:15My guest says it started as a joke, a fantasy he had.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18That he, a transvestite potter, would have an exhibition among
0:00:18 > 0:00:23the ancient treasures of the British Museum.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27But that is exactly what he did.
0:00:28 > 0:00:29Grayson Perry, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:43 > 0:01:00Grayson Perry, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04It is a very unlikely mix of modern art at the British museum.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Why did you want to do it?
0:01:06 > 0:01:08I had a track record of doing exhibitions here.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11It is quite sporadic.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14A predecessor in 1985 exhibitions, which he did
0:01:14 > 0:01:17with a collection at the Museum of Mankind, which I saw
0:01:17 > 0:01:18as a recent graduate.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20So I knew that such things were possible.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23The proposal was that you had The Tomb of the Unknown Craftsman.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Yes.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28The idea was, it was going to be a mixture of my work,
0:01:28 > 0:01:32as a representative of a fantasy civilisation, one I had in my head,
0:01:32 > 0:01:45and a celebration of the anonymous craftsmen throughout history.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Of course that was a poignant thing.
0:01:49 > 0:02:03I did not realise until I finished that one of the most interesting
0:02:03 > 0:02:05thing about the title is that it is a counterpart
0:02:05 > 0:02:09to the world where I come from, where the identity of the maker
0:02:09 > 0:02:10is the most significant thing.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14It could be any old piece of tat but when it has a name applied
0:02:14 > 0:02:16to it, it becomes valuable.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20A Leonardo da Vinci or Damien Hirst is only worth a huge amount of money
0:02:20 > 0:02:22if they it's been confirmed they made it.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Most of the things in this exhibition, we do not know
0:02:25 > 0:02:27who made them.
0:02:27 > 0:02:33I read you wore your magic robe whenever you went to the museum?
0:02:33 > 0:02:45There is an internal logic about my own civilisation.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48I am mischievous about it. I am playing with it.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52The idea that I have my teddy bear as the God of my civilisation.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54At first, it was just quite funny.
0:02:54 > 0:02:55Quickly, I realised it had legs.
0:02:56 > 0:02:57It could run.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59You chose things you liked?
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Yes.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05That is not a trivial thing, what you like.
0:03:05 > 0:03:16People would dismiss it...
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Why I was given the opportunity was because of who I am,
0:03:19 > 0:03:21I am a professional intuiter.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26You were alongside experts in the museum.
0:03:26 > 0:03:40That must be a strange business. Here you are, a professional Intuit
0:03:40 > 0:03:49and asking them to explain objects to you.
0:03:49 > 0:03:50How did they respond?
0:03:51 > 0:03:51Brilliantly.
0:03:52 > 0:03:53They are interested in showing their stuff.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56An opportunity to dig in the nether regions of the collection
0:03:56 > 0:03:57was lovely for them.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00You ended up with 170 objects from the museum.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02There were 30 of your own pieces of art.
0:04:02 > 0:04:12One of the first things you see when you come into the exhibition,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15is the line 'Do not look too hard for meaning here'.
0:04:15 > 0:04:16Do you mean that?
0:04:16 > 0:04:19What I mean is, people are allowed to make up their own mind.
0:04:19 > 0:04:32Sometimes this huge institution is a generator of meaning,
0:04:32 > 0:04:34something that it looks for all the time.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37The experts want to interpret everything, and give
0:04:37 > 0:04:38very detailed labels.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40I was aware of that, going around with the curators.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43They live or die by the accuracy of the information.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Or the agreed accuracy of the information.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47Even the meanings they put to things are often guesses,
0:04:48 > 0:04:53or fluid, or their projections.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Modern projections onto the past...
0:04:56 > 0:04:58"That's because of that".
0:04:58 > 0:04:59But it might be rubbish.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02What I want people to do is scrutinise the information
0:05:02 > 0:05:05in the show and make their own connections.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09I hope people feel inspired to make a version of my own show.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11If only in their heads.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13Could anyone have done this, then?
0:05:13 > 0:05:13No!
0:05:13 > 0:05:15I am a professional artist.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20I have been working at this for 30 years.
0:05:21 > 0:05:32Do not knock back.
0:05:32 > 0:05:33Modern art is not a con,
0:05:33 > 0:05:35I've been working hard for it!
0:05:35 > 0:05:36Have some respect!
0:05:36 > 0:05:38The first pot, when you walk into this exhibition,
0:05:38 > 0:05:44has various quotes on it.
0:05:44 > 0:05:52Things like, "I just want to satisfy myself that I am more clever
0:05:52 > 0:05:59than the celebrity charlatan."
0:05:59 > 0:06:02It is like you are immediately engaging with people's skepticism.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04I want them to park their prejudice.
0:06:05 > 0:06:06The art world gets very fed up.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09Sometimes the media is justified.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13I am the worst audience of contemporary art.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16The contemporary art world gets very bored with the prejudices
0:06:16 > 0:06:21that the media has.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23They have a stock line about it being shocking,
0:06:23 > 0:06:25worthless and a joke.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28That's their line.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32It is almost like the contemporary art world is a particular culture.
0:06:32 > 0:06:39That's what I've become aware of putting the show together.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41They are a tribe.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44It has its own internal rituals, its little white temples.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46It can get bound up in itself.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49It does not necessarily speak to the wider audience.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52At its worst, it can become very insular and inward looking.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56It doesn't need the audience a lot of the time.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59There are collectors, dealers, artists, they have a close circle
0:06:59 > 0:07:02and they do not need the money of the public.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04They do not need the attention of the public.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06So the art world can become self-indulgent.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09I am interested in communicating with a wider audience.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12That is one of the attractions of having an exhibition
0:07:12 > 0:07:13in the British Museum.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18So the first pot acknowledges that.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22Then they see what?
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Three helmets.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29It's a tease.
0:07:29 > 0:07:38Be on your guard and don't take things for granted.
0:07:38 > 0:07:43Can you explain them?
0:07:43 > 0:07:46The first is a motorcycle helmet that I rode on my motorcycle around
0:07:46 > 0:07:48Germany.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50It is very brightly painted.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52It is painted with aluminium.
0:07:52 > 0:07:56It is a real crash helmet.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00Next to that is an aluminium helmet, and it looks like it has been dug up
0:08:01 > 0:08:12from an archaeological dig.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14I made it in 1981.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17It has been in my back garden for 30 years.
0:08:17 > 0:08:18It looks corroded and old and authentic.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22Then, next to that, is a ceremonial headdress made from animal skin.
0:08:22 > 0:08:23It looks like a prop.
0:08:23 > 0:08:31That looks like the fake thing.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35The real thing looks like the fake thing and that's what I was saying.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Look closely at everything, read things carefully,
0:08:37 > 0:08:39pay attention to the labels.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42And it has worked.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46I see people are studying at the exhibition.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51They think, 'is this an object from the artist or from the museum'?
0:08:51 > 0:08:55And reacting differently to your work because it is here?
0:08:55 > 0:08:58I hope so.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01Because they're on guard, they are looking at things
0:09:01 > 0:09:04neutrally.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07They are not thinking it's contemporary art so they're
0:09:08 > 0:09:11looking for that.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14They have to drop their guard and look at everything
0:09:14 > 0:09:18with an openness that this might be a piece from Egypt from 2,000 years
0:09:18 > 0:09:25ago or maybe it is a piece of contemporary art.
0:09:25 > 0:09:32It may be a throwaway thing from Victorian England.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36I took a risk because these objects are very significant.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39My objects are up against them.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42Although, part of the exhibition is about a reference to everything,
0:09:42 > 0:09:47not just religion.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52'Hold your beliefs lightly'.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55It was aimed at religion but the rigidity of belief
0:09:55 > 0:10:02is a dangerously mental illness.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05To hold onto your beliefs until your knuckles are white
0:10:05 > 0:10:12is a very destructive and insane thing to do.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16One of the quotes on the pots is that you are into offbeat stuff.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Yeah.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23Yet you said one of the big ambitions in your career is to make
0:10:23 > 0:10:32happy and non-confrontational art.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36Offbeat is a light-hearted thing.
0:10:36 > 0:10:37Are you confrontational?
0:10:37 > 0:10:38Is your art confrontational?
0:10:38 > 0:10:41I think it probably is but not in the way that many
0:10:41 > 0:10:42people might think.
0:10:42 > 0:10:48It's not about sex or violence.
0:10:48 > 0:10:54I am not necessary challenging people.
0:10:54 > 0:11:03The area that is most influential on me, psychotherapy and mental
0:11:03 > 0:11:04illness,
0:11:04 > 0:11:08I am working in the area of sanity and what makes us a good life
0:11:09 > 0:11:10as a human being.
0:11:10 > 0:11:11Our mindset is central to that.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13That is the area where I challenge people.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15So maybe that's where I challenge people.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17It is about holding things lightly.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18It is a tightrope walk.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19You challenge people.
0:11:19 > 0:11:21You have pots with graphic sexual imagery.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23There is a whole section about sex.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26Some of it is thousands of years old and it is more explicit
0:11:26 > 0:11:30than the things I have made.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34There is a stone carving, 1,000 years old, from an Irish Church,
0:11:34 > 0:11:37of a woman holding her vagina open.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41It is like, nothing is new.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43The idea...
0:11:43 > 0:11:46The problem people have with sex is not necessarily sex
0:11:46 > 0:11:49but the context it's in.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52It is about exploitation and brutality and violence.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55These are the areas where sex...
0:11:55 > 0:11:58People get offended by sex and they are the same people
0:11:58 > 0:11:59who are often doing horrific things.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03But in terms of whether you're confrontational, you have put lines
0:12:03 > 0:12:10like, 'We have found the body of your child'.
0:12:10 > 0:12:16really quite arresting stuff.For some who said they wanted to make
0:12:16 > 0:12:20happy art...
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Are you making happy art now?
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Definitely.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Decorative stuff.
0:12:26 > 0:12:27That's underrated?
0:12:27 > 0:12:27Yes.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31Do you think the art world is too hung up on meanings?
0:12:31 > 0:12:34The worst thing an artist can do is to get too wrapped up
0:12:34 > 0:12:35in their own ideas.
0:12:35 > 0:12:41I want to create things that look beautiful.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45The meaning is part of what makes a good artwork but it should not be
0:12:45 > 0:12:48the be all and end all.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52Quite often I get the feeling that you do not want to sit
0:12:52 > 0:12:56with the meaning of a work in your house.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Often I think about, would a person like to come down
0:12:59 > 0:13:06and look at it the next day after they bought it?
0:13:06 > 0:13:09That brings me to why you have chosen pots.
0:13:09 > 0:13:19You object to being called a potter.
0:13:19 > 0:13:24That is how you made your name, however, as a ceramicist.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26But you describe it as a modest craft.
0:13:26 > 0:13:27It is.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31There are a couple of large pots in the exhibition and that is as far
0:13:31 > 0:13:32as I can go.
0:13:32 > 0:13:38Any bigger and it is a technical nightmare.
0:13:38 > 0:13:39But it need not be modest.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41In Britain, pottery is underrated.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45In China they treat ceramics much higher,
0:13:45 > 0:13:49and it is a different approach.
0:13:49 > 0:13:50It's different in Britain.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53They are still modest objects if you put them
0:13:53 > 0:13:54against most contemporary art.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Even the flashiest ceramic, next to a Jeff Koon
0:13:57 > 0:13:58or a Damien Hirst, it disappears.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00They are so shouty, the modern art.
0:14:00 > 0:14:14So in the context, they are modest.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18There's another reason you chose that modesty,
0:14:18 > 0:14:28because allied with what you're putting on your pots,
0:14:29 > 0:14:34that's where you think, that's the point of your art.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36Initially why I did ceramics was purely by chance.
0:14:36 > 0:14:37I was a penniless graduate.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39I didn't have a studio.
0:14:39 > 0:14:45Evening classes were practically free at the time in London.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48I could go and keep my hand in doing a bit of clay.
0:14:48 > 0:14:49Then I started making pots.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55I was interested in my art friends' reaction to the pots.
0:14:55 > 0:15:00Craft was seen as naff, ridiculous and unfashionable.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04It was seen as a kind of pretentious next door neighbour of art.
0:15:04 > 0:15:09It was a class thing as well.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12The higher academician idea of art as opposed to the workmanlike craft.
0:15:12 > 0:15:18I was interested in the baggage around pottery.
0:15:18 > 0:15:24And then of course there's the consumer baggage of pottery.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28'S and Higgs and you're aunties's knickknacks and the baggage they
0:15:28 > 0:15:31have -- its antiques.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34They were all to me quite good ammunition to work with.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36All of those thoughts people have about pottery,
0:15:36 > 0:15:39they were not contemporary art, so there was this constant
0:15:39 > 0:15:48battle with it.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51I trained as a contemporary artist, not a potter.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53I was interested in all of those different ideas.
0:15:53 > 0:15:5620 years on when I won the Turner Prize people still had
0:15:57 > 0:15:59difficulty with the fact that I was making pots.
0:15:59 > 0:16:03I thought, there's mileage in this! You can make a shark into art and
0:16:03 > 0:16:04nobody questions it.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06To do pottery still seemed to rankle with people!
0:16:06 > 0:16:07I found that fascinating.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10I was dealing with the prejudices of the kind of liberal
0:16:10 > 0:16:14and intellectual elite.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17Here you are now dressed as a man, which is not
0:16:17 > 0:16:22certainly your usual public persona.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27Why did you choose not to wear a dress today?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30It is 9amin the morning.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32I would have to get up very early.
0:16:32 > 0:16:33Is that it? Yes.
0:16:33 > 0:16:39And I have many other meetings today.
0:16:39 > 0:16:40There's transport issues.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Heat is the enemy of drag, as they say.
0:16:43 > 0:16:49I wonder if you've changed your approach to it.
0:16:49 > 0:16:54You seem to appear as Grayson, Grayson in a suit more often.
0:16:54 > 0:16:55I'm more relaxed about it nowadays.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57It was never about publicity.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Did it help, though?
0:17:00 > 0:17:03You say it was never about publicity but did it help your art?
0:17:03 > 0:17:04Of course it did!
0:17:05 > 0:17:07For the same reasons that the shockingness of winding
0:17:07 > 0:17:08people up about pottery helped?
0:17:08 > 0:17:09Yeah.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11In the modern world, where the cultural field
0:17:11 > 0:17:31is so loaded, the media is part of it.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35Anybody who clings on to the idea that, I am above all that,
0:17:35 > 0:17:37is making a rod for their own back.
0:17:37 > 0:17:38But it was not only publicity.
0:17:39 > 0:17:40I'm a transvestite!
0:17:40 > 0:17:43I'm erotically compelled to dress up like a woman.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45It's when you choose to dress up.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48I dress up when I want to and when it is convenient
0:17:48 > 0:17:52and when it fits in with what I'm doing.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55I will always opt to do it if I can.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59If we were doing this interview later in the day and I did not have
0:17:59 > 0:18:02so much to do I would probably be in a frock.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05I would like to do that.
0:18:05 > 0:18:11Is it coincidental to your art?
0:18:11 > 0:18:15I imagine it can't be. You just walk around this exhibition to see how
0:18:15 > 0:18:22important it is to you. You see Claire, your alter ego...
0:18:22 > 0:18:25Historically, you look back through art, which is mainly done
0:18:25 > 0:18:27by men, and a lot of it is about sex.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29Transvestism is part of my sexuality.
0:18:29 > 0:18:38You describe yourself as Clare.
0:18:38 > 0:18:45Does Clare exist any more?
0:18:46 > 0:18:48I think, as I've got older, I've integrated my transvestite
0:18:48 > 0:18:49behaviour into my personality.
0:18:49 > 0:18:56It's not a separate thing.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00That's part of sanity, bringing all of your personalities into one.
0:19:00 > 0:19:06Integration.
0:19:06 > 0:19:11That's that shrine in the show,
0:19:11 > 0:19:17the woman with the anvil hammering my parts together.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20The idea that sanity is not to push parts of yourself away,
0:19:20 > 0:19:21to disassociate them...
0:19:21 > 0:19:25It's to bring them in...
0:19:25 > 0:19:29A good definition of sanity is to be all of yourself all of the time
0:19:29 > 0:19:33to everyone, not to be a chameleon.
0:19:34 > 0:19:34That's mental illness.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38You make the point that how people dress is a physical manifestation
0:19:38 > 0:19:42of how they want to be treated.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44It's an unconscious desire that's part of transvestism.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48As a child...
0:19:48 > 0:19:51You've got to remember that sexual fetishes on the whole developed
0:19:51 > 0:19:52in nurture, in childhood.
0:19:52 > 0:19:58They come out of that.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01There might be a predisposition in a person, but I think
0:20:02 > 0:20:08they are mainly to do with nurture.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11Therefore, if you feel as a child that you're not getting the sort
0:20:11 > 0:20:14of attention that you want, you might start looking
0:20:14 > 0:20:19for strategies or cues in life that might get you that attention.
0:20:19 > 0:20:24Which brings me to one of the items here, your high priestess cape.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27You go round the corner of this exhibition and you see something
0:20:27 > 0:20:33that could be an oriental work.
0:20:33 > 0:20:46It's a satin cape with embroidery on it.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49It's got exotic birds sitting on a branch from a distance,
0:20:49 > 0:20:53but when you come closer you realise they're not birds at all.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58They're basically flying penises.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00Yes, flying penises.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04The design was based on a wedding kimono.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07The flying penis, often you think of the erect penis
0:21:07 > 0:21:10as an aggressive thing.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14But there's also a delicate little bird, perhaps there's a message in
0:21:14 > 0:21:22there to people. It goes back to Roman times, piranha must Bosch used
0:21:22 > 0:21:24it, it goes back many years.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28I have got a model of a mediaeval pilgrim badge that people would have
0:21:28 > 0:21:30gotten at a festival, and that is a flying penis.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33I want to normalise these things to a certain extent.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35If I do it it would be great.
0:21:35 > 0:21:39I want to say, grow up.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42Do you think that has happened with modern art,
0:21:42 > 0:21:44that over the last 20 years, people's reaction has changed?
0:21:44 > 0:21:46There is more acceptance?
0:21:46 > 0:21:48I think the media's reaction is the thing that is difficult
0:21:49 > 0:22:01to deal with.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04The public are much more tolerant than the media.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06The media has a fantasy of its audience, particularly
0:22:06 > 0:22:16the right wing media.
0:22:16 > 0:22:23In Britain that is quite dominant in many ways.
0:22:23 > 0:22:30You don't think they're reflecting rather than informing?
0:22:30 > 0:22:31They're certainly not reflective of my audience.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34My audience are much more sophisticated than the popular media
0:22:34 > 0:22:37view of contemporary art and the issues that I deal with.
0:22:37 > 0:22:45My audience are what I would call a kind of middle class,
0:22:45 > 0:22:47middlebrow, National Trust, Radio 4, well-informed,
0:22:47 > 0:22:55educated, the supporters of culture.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Has that always been your audience?
0:22:59 > 0:23:06You're talking about Middle England.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08In a sense, a transvestite potter who puts...
0:23:08 > 0:23:13People are tolerant!
0:23:13 > 0:23:20I never get any hassle with people who are tolerant.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23That's so annoying.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26Trying to stoke up shock.
0:23:26 > 0:23:27Trying to stoke up shock.
0:23:27 > 0:23:27It's boring.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29Did you always know people were tolerant?
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Your family were not tolerant.
0:23:31 > 0:23:31They're innocent.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33That was 40 years ago.
0:23:33 > 0:23:34The modern world has moved on.
0:23:34 > 0:23:48The internet, the media...
0:23:48 > 0:23:51And moved on because of people like you being public
0:23:51 > 0:23:52with their art?
0:23:52 > 0:23:53I hope so.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55I could be sentenced to death in a few countries
0:23:55 > 0:23:56for wearing a frock.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00It's ridiculous!
0:24:00 > 0:24:10Grayson, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.Pleasure.