:00:01. > :00:10.Transport for London says it is trying to get as many services as
:00:10. > :00:13.possible to run. It is time for HARDtalk. Cycling is one of the
:00:13. > :00:23.most physically demanding of professional sports. It is also one
:00:23. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:28.of the most tainted. In the last decade a host of top riders have
:00:28. > :00:31.been exposed as drugs cheats, HARDtalk's guest was one of them.
:00:31. > :00:34.David Millar held the Tour de France yellow jersey and was a
:00:34. > :00:38.world champion before he was busted. Banned for two years he then came
:00:38. > :00:48.back, committed not just to racing but to cleaning up cycling. But is
:00:48. > :01:07.
:01:07. > :01:14.there room for integrity in a world where winning is everything? David
:01:14. > :01:18.Millar, welcome to HARDtalk. You are an elite professional cyclist.
:01:18. > :01:28.You are now 34. You have put yourself through the Tour de France
:01:28. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:35.again. Do you care about winning any more? I think that is a natural
:01:35. > :01:45.state for any professional athlete, you care whether you win, for your
:01:45. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:54.team, for your team-mates. If we are not winning we are not doing
:01:54. > :01:58.our job. So winning matters for you today as much as it ever did? When
:01:58. > :02:01.you were a young lad setting up a prodigious talent, it is the same
:02:01. > :02:04.feeling? If I didn't have that ambition or desire to achieve
:02:04. > :02:07.success, which is winning, I wouldn't be doing it and I would
:02:07. > :02:15.love it so much. I wouldn't work so hard and I wouldn't go through the
:02:15. > :02:18.suffering. Suffering is the key word that I hear from cyclists a
:02:18. > :02:21.lot. When you say suffering, do you mean mental or physical anguish?
:02:21. > :02:24.The two. It is an integral part of professional cycling - there is a
:02:24. > :02:29.huge amount of physical suffering and there is obviously mental
:02:29. > :02:32.suffering. A lot of the time you are hanging on for dear life
:02:32. > :02:42.waiting for the guy in front of you to crack. Once he cracks the race
:02:42. > :02:47.
:02:47. > :02:50.other and waiting for the guy next to us to crack before you do. A lot
:02:50. > :02:53.of the time it doesn't happen. have been through more than a
:02:53. > :02:57.decade of professional suffering as a cyclist. I would like to go back
:02:57. > :03:00.to the beginning of your career as a boy and a young man. You clearly
:03:00. > :03:04.had a talent for racing your bicycle. What was it that pushed
:03:04. > :03:14.you towards the idea that you could make a life of that, a career?
:03:14. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:21.Dreaming more than anything. Watching the Tour de France and
:03:21. > :03:25.realising it was possible... That the sport existed at that level -
:03:25. > :03:29.we could go do it full-time and get paid for it. When I was young it
:03:29. > :03:39.y or glory - I wanted to do the Tour
:03:39. > :03:42.
:03:42. > :03:47.de France. I thought it was an epic thing, something so magnificent and
:03:47. > :03:50.other-worldly. It was idealistic and sort of, yeah, it was a dream.
:03:50. > :04:00.And this is a loaded word, but were you arrogant enough, in the early
:04:00. > :04:04.years of your career, to believe you could be the best? Push
:04:04. > :04:07.yourself all the way, win the Tour de France? For sure, I think
:04:07. > :04:11.arrogance - you have to have an element of arrogance to you as a
:04:11. > :04:14.young sportsman if you want to achieve. If you want to become - if
:04:14. > :04:17.you want to get into the elite level. Just to get in, let alone
:04:17. > :04:21.remain there. You have to go against the grain in many ways.
:04:21. > :04:24.There you were, a cocksure young man. You were good and you knew you
:04:24. > :04:28.were good and you believed you could be at the top of this sport
:04:28. > :04:30.one day. At what time did you realise that a lot of the riders
:04:30. > :04:35.around you were using illegal drugs to enhance their performance?
:04:35. > :04:43.Almost immediately when I turned professional. It was quite obvious
:04:43. > :04:45.that there was doping going on. om
:04:45. > :04:49.seeing suspicious behaviour - ice being delivered to rooms. Asking
:04:49. > :04:59.why ice was being delivered to rooms. Asking, why does my room-
:04:59. > :05:09.mate need ice? And they would just say, oh, it is to keep the EPO cool.
:05:09. > :05:12.
:05:12. > :05:17.That was the drug of choice at the time. I didn't want to believe
:05:17. > :05:27.there was any doping. At the time it wasn't in the media. There had
:05:27. > :05:28.
:05:28. > :05:31.not been any real big drug scandals. This is before the scandal in 1998.
:05:31. > :05:33.To come into this world and have all my dreams shattered and realise
:05:33. > :05:43.that doping was prevalent was shocking. You have written about
:05:43. > :05:50.
:05:50. > :05:53.this a lot. On one ride with a training team-mate you asked him
:05:53. > :05:56.what sort of difference can EPO make. He said it could turn a
:05:56. > :06:06.donkey in to a racehorse. That's the truth. Doping is abuse, but it
:06:06. > :06:12.
:06:12. > :06:15.was amazing there were different degrees of abuse. Some guys would
:06:15. > :06:18.do it to just tweak a little bit, other guys would literally take as
:06:18. > :06:21.much as they possibly could, risking their health and pushing
:06:21. > :06:24.the limits of what was possible. Those guys were the guys who were
:06:24. > :06:28.turning themselves... They became racehorses. You were not a donkey -
:06:28. > :06:38.you were a thoroughbred. Very early on, you led the Tour de France. You
:06:38. > :06:39.
:06:39. > :06:42.had the yellow jersey. I am trying to establish the kind of mindset
:06:42. > :06:46.that put you over the edge from having consistently, for a number
:06:46. > :06:49.of years, saying you would not take drugs because you believe you can
:06:49. > :06:53.win without them, to then deciding - you know what, I will take the
:06:53. > :06:58.EPO. I will become a cheat. This is what is so hard to explain and it
:06:58. > :07:01.is why I wrote the book. I want people to understand the
:07:01. > :07:06.accumulation of factors that kind of pushed me towards doping for the
:07:06. > :07:13.first time. In all honesty there is not one thing I can pinpoint.
:07:13. > :07:16.Didn't you push yourself? Oh, yes, I pushed myself - as I said, there
:07:16. > :07:19.was an accumulation of factors. It was only ever me that made the
:07:19. > :07:24.decision. The buck stops with me. In all honesty, I gave up. I
:07:24. > :07:29.stopped fighting being clean. It was like I was really standing my
:07:29. > :07:32.ground and being stubborn. It almost felt like I was being
:07:32. > :07:42.idealistic for nothing. Nobody cared if I was clean or not. Even
:07:42. > :07:44.
:07:44. > :07:48.your own team manager? At one point they used the phrase, after you had
:07:48. > :07:51.a catastrophic 2001 Tour, you had to retire in the Alps - they told
:07:51. > :07:55.you to go off and "prepare properly". And you said you knew
:07:55. > :08:04.what they meant. I completely knew what they meant. There was a lot of
:08:04. > :08:08.innuendo. To "prepare properly" at that time meant to take drugs. To
:08:08. > :08:18.say that you may have well have said - OK David, you're going to go
:08:18. > :08:31.
:08:31. > :08:34.and take EPO. Did you ever think of saying no? I said no for years.
:08:34. > :08:39.What is interesting is that you stopped saying no after you had a
:08:39. > :08:42.reverse. You were one of the young greats of the Tour de France and
:08:42. > :08:48.you had just had a serious setback. Maybe your pride was injured - you
:08:48. > :08:51.wanted to get to the top. It was hurt. I wanted to be what people
:08:51. > :08:54.expected me to be. I was aspiring to expectations - there was a lot
:08:54. > :08:58.of ego involved. There was pride. There was the desire for glory.
:08:58. > :09:01.Funnily enough, money didn't come into it. It was an ego thing in
:09:01. > :09:06.many ways. To not let down the people around me. There were many
:09:06. > :09:10.things involved. You won as a cheat. You won a terrific World
:09:10. > :09:17.Championship time-trial in 2003, on drugs. I dominated it. During the
:09:17. > :09:20.race I knew I had won it. It was just ticking boxes. It was business
:09:20. > :09:30.time - there were none of the raw sensations that you are supposed to
:09:30. > :09:31.
:09:31. > :09:34.get from the sport. It is supposed to be pure, existential, but as
:09:35. > :09:41.soon as I was taking drugs, especially to that degree - I was
:09:41. > :09:46.firing on all cylinders. It was too easy and I knew I was cheating. I
:09:46. > :09:49.knew that all I was there for was to win. When you stood on the
:09:49. > :09:59.podium, you got the garlands and the big prize, what did you feel?
:09:59. > :10:02.Oh, not much. Not much at all. Empty? There was not much feeling.
:10:02. > :10:07.You were always a smart young man, you had many options in your life.
:10:07. > :10:11.You chose to go down the path of cycling because you could. Because
:10:11. > :10:17.you were articulate and bright, why, at that point, did you not decide,
:10:17. > :10:24.voluntarily, to confess? To stop going down that path that was not
:10:24. > :10:30.satisfying? I couldn't do it. I didn't have the courage to do it.
:10:30. > :10:37.It was an endgame situation. If we are going back to the pride and ego
:10:37. > :10:43.- I would be destroyed. This image that people have of me. I would be
:10:43. > :10:46.disliked. That was something I was scared of doing. It was almost a
:10:46. > :10:56.self- sabotage, the fact that I kept those last two old syringes in
:10:56. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:09.my bookshelf. I wanted to get caught. I had to have them catch me.
:11:09. > :11:12.The big question for David Millar is - if the French police hadn't
:11:12. > :11:15.busted you in 2004, partly because they got information from your
:11:15. > :11:19.team-mate, if they hadn't busted you, would you ever have confessed?
:11:19. > :11:24.I can't - I don't know. There was a high chance that, no, I wouldn't
:11:24. > :11:27.have. I don't think I would have been alive now, judging by what
:11:27. > :11:30.happened to some of the other guys. I was on a downward spiral already,
:11:30. > :11:40.emotionally and I was tormenting myself in many ways. I was a very
:11:40. > :11:58.
:11:58. > :12:00.unstable person. I think if I hadn't - if the French police
:12:00. > :12:03.hadn't stepped in and society's governors hadn't taken control the
:12:03. > :12:06.situation I would have destroyed myself. Although I wouldn't have
:12:06. > :12:10.admitted it, I would have burnt that flame a little too long.
:12:10. > :12:13.one hell of a world, isn't it? Where the people were managing you,
:12:13. > :12:16.supposed to be nurturing you and responsible for you are watching
:12:16. > :12:19.you going down that spiral and, frankly, far from preventing it -
:12:19. > :12:22.are encouraging you. That has been one of my biggest things in regards
:12:22. > :12:27.to coming back into the sport and trying to be proactive in educating
:12:27. > :12:30.people on my experiences. One of the things that cut me up the most
:12:30. > :12:34.with what happened to me was that it was preventable. It shouldn't
:12:34. > :12:37.have happened to me. That angered me so much that the people who were
:12:37. > :12:40.supposed to look after me as a young man didn't. They did the
:12:40. > :12:44.opposite - that is something that I have always remembered. Is it
:12:44. > :12:47.personal? Are there particular individuals who you feel would have
:12:47. > :12:54.been happy to watch you, in your own words, come very close to,
:12:54. > :12:58.frankly, ending it all? Yeah. I don't have any anger towards
:12:58. > :13:01.individuals, as such - I have anger that it could have happened, that's
:13:01. > :13:06.all. This has happened to many other guys with people around them,
:13:06. > :13:11.different personalities and backgrounds. It is a generic thing,
:13:11. > :13:15.which is worse, almost. As I said - you never confessed voluntarily. In
:13:15. > :13:18.the end it was forced out of you and then you told all because the
:13:18. > :13:28.police got you. You only got a 2- year ban. Some people think because
:13:28. > :13:33.
:13:33. > :13:43.you didn't confess voluntarily you should have been banned forever.
:13:43. > :13:47.
:13:48. > :13:50.understand their opinions. Bradley Wiggins, a very successful rider
:13:51. > :13:53.who has always insisted that getting drugs out of sport has to
:13:54. > :13:57.be a priority says that cheats should be locked up - imprisoned.
:13:57. > :14:00.And that happens now in Europe. It is criminal to dope in France,
:14:00. > :14:03.Spain, Italy, Belgium. That is in the last few years that has
:14:03. > :14:11.happened. You get locked up now, briefly. But I think it is easy to
:14:11. > :14:14.lose track of the big picture. We are sportsmen. There is a certain
:14:14. > :14:18.vengeance to this idea of lifetime bans. I think every person has the
:14:18. > :14:21.right to rehabilitation and a second chance. I know that is
:14:21. > :14:25.personal opinion because of what happened to me - but I think other
:14:25. > :14:35.people can do it. That might be naive of me, but I think everybody
:14:35. > :14:35.
:14:35. > :14:40.should be given a chance to You have already told me you care
:14:40. > :14:46.enormously about cleaning up the sport. This bores of yours can
:14:46. > :14:53.never be cleaned up as long as one huge shadow remains, the shadow of
:14:53. > :15:03.Lance Armstrong, possibly the greatest cyclist ever -- this sport.
:15:03. > :15:04.
:15:04. > :15:07.There is so much controversy about his alleged use of drugs. This is
:15:07. > :15:15.what the federal investigation in the US is about at the moment.
:15:15. > :15:20.Lance Armstrong has consistently denied using drugs and has said
:15:20. > :15:28.every test he has taken has never proven that he took an illegal
:15:28. > :15:36.substance. Unfortunately that is a whole period in the history of
:15:36. > :15:41.cycling that has a large shadow. We have to give it closure and maybe
:15:41. > :15:46.this investigation will give a closure. I want us to move forward.
:15:46. > :15:51.That is what I want to do with my team and myself personally. I do
:15:51. > :15:58.not want to spell my whole career a dwelling on the last decade. --
:15:58. > :16:03.spend. This is about the entire credibility of the sport. He is the
:16:03. > :16:09.one cyclist that people can name. He epitomised the courage and
:16:09. > :16:12.strength of the sport. He made these for what it is. My team
:16:13. > :16:20.exists because of him. We are Americans with the American
:16:20. > :16:24.sponsors. That is because of his effect. That is a negative effect
:16:24. > :16:31.of the shadows and the allegations I think as some point I hope we
:16:31. > :16:37.will get closure. Otherwise that will go on forever. Maybe I need
:16:37. > :16:43.you to be honest with me about what you mean by closure. You have
:16:44. > :16:49.written quoting veteran of riders, saying in the 1990s and to
:16:49. > :16:56.thousands it was not possible to win the three-week ruling Tour de
:16:56. > :17:04.France without taking substances. Is that what you believe? That was
:17:04. > :17:10.the wide opinion. I believe that, that is why I took drugs. I thought
:17:10. > :17:20.the only way to achieve greatness was by taking drugs. So use they
:17:20. > :17:21.
:17:21. > :17:26.whole generation -- so you see -- has been painted by that Rush?
:17:26. > :17:30.There are guys who are going to be tested to do not deserve bed.
:17:30. > :17:36.Although there is widespread doping, there are also people who are
:17:36. > :17:41.achieving incredible things clean. They were rare but it was happening.
:17:41. > :17:47.Unfortunately those guys are going to get tarnished. Look at the sides.
:17:47. > :17:52.I know you have studied this closely. Any cyclist cares about
:17:52. > :18:00.how the human body works. There are two scientists who have studied the
:18:00. > :18:04.physiology of cycling in detail and they say the top performances of
:18:04. > :18:11.the 1990s exceeded the physiological capacity of human
:18:11. > :18:15.beings. That is professional cycling. We do exceed the
:18:15. > :18:25.capabilities of human beings. It is nonsense to do a three-week stage
:18:25. > :18:35.race. Doing that clean now... respect they are doing it slower
:18:35. > :18:51.
:18:51. > :19:00.now. You can pose as many numbers on it as you want. -- perk. -- out.
:19:00. > :19:07.-- put. A leaving aside that investigation, you had a long
:19:07. > :19:16.conversation with Lance or Armstrong. He believed he did not
:19:16. > :19:22.do enough. Why did you say that? is a phenomenal human being. His
:19:22. > :19:29.legacy with his foundation... I believe that whatever he has or has
:19:29. > :19:39.not done, he has so much power and influence and I naively believed he
:19:39. > :19:46.could change the sport for the better. That is why I wanted him to
:19:46. > :19:52.make these for a new sport. Do you think he has mess that obligation?
:19:52. > :20:01.-- make this sports a new sport. think so. I always think he could
:20:01. > :20:06.do more. He is Lance Armstrong, he is a once off. You race the Tour de
:20:06. > :20:11.France this year. You are a respected member of the cyclist to
:20:11. > :20:21.do the tour on the professional circuit. 10 you say you believe the
:20:21. > :20:24.
:20:24. > :20:30.professional racers are now stress and honest cap -- can he say?
:20:30. > :20:34.will always be cyclist who do doping. An Austrian a cyclist who
:20:34. > :20:42.was third in the Tour de France three years ago says there are ways,
:20:42. > :20:48.sophisticated ways, in which riders can trick the system if they really
:20:48. > :20:52.wanted. There always will be. What we are doing now in the sport with
:20:52. > :20:57.the biological passport with profiles for each athletes, which
:20:57. > :21:03.instead of looking for the cause and the drug in your urine, looks
:21:03. > :21:09.for the effect it has in your body. For you, they would monitor your
:21:09. > :21:14.blood levels and hormones over two years and would be able to see the
:21:14. > :21:20.blips if something was happening. That is where the sport is going.
:21:20. > :21:27.It is possible to achieve that but it demands a massive amount of
:21:27. > :21:33.money, skill and the bottom line is that it is a criminal activity. You
:21:33. > :21:38.are employing a team of people to cheat the system. Do you actually
:21:38. > :21:43.love the sport any more? You have talked to me about the way you
:21:43. > :21:51.first as a young man, thrown to the walls. The EU actually love for it?
:21:51. > :21:58.I love it more than anything -- do you. I will miss the racing so much
:21:58. > :22:07.and the but. -- and the excitement. The feeling of sidling down the
:22:07. > :22:12.mountain and going further -- cycling. It is a wonderful sport. I
:22:12. > :22:17.have experience many things that people cannot buy. I get to take my
:22:17. > :22:27.cells to places that very few people get to go -- myself. Would
:22:27. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:38.it be too much pop psychology to suggest when you were on the 2020
:22:38. > :22:47.Alps in 2010 and he refused to quit, is that you are seeking redemption?
:22:47. > :22:51.I used to think that redemption was unachievable, a pipe dream. I think
:22:51. > :23:01.I have been very lucky and I feel that I hammered the achieving
:23:01. > :23:04.
:23:04. > :23:09.redemption. That has -- I have achieved. The dead end in the Alps
:23:09. > :23:15.was an epiphany for me. I did realise that I needed to do that
:23:15. > :23:20.for myself. I began by asking whether you cared about winning.
:23:20. > :23:29.Maybe you care more about restoring respect than you do about winning.
:23:30. > :23:36.Yes. I would like respect again. you are not respected, is there
:23:36. > :23:40.anything he can do any more in this sport? I have a responsibility. I
:23:40. > :23:47.live with that responsibility to make a difference. I take pride in
:23:47. > :23:51.that. I think it is a duty. I will always do that. If you ever saw a
:23:51. > :23:56.young man go down the path that you took those years ago what would you
:23:56. > :24:00.say to him? If he was considering getting the edge by taking