:00:12. > :00:18.established. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Is 2012 to be a year of
:00:18. > :00:22.strikes and worker protests? Well, there's certainly plenty of
:00:22. > :00:30.discontent to go around. UK unemployment is still rising,
:00:30. > :00:33.incomes are being squeezed and pension provision downsized. My
:00:33. > :00:37.guest is Mark Serwotka, leader of one of Britain's biggest public
:00:37. > :00:40.sector trade unions. He says the time has come for workers to stand
:00:40. > :00:50.and fight, but in this age of austerity, do unions have the will
:00:50. > :01:01.
:01:02. > :01:11.and the muscle for a prolonged confrontation? Welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:12. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:15.Thank you. He used the 2012 as the year of industrial unrest? That
:01:15. > :01:20.will depend on whether the government carry on making working
:01:20. > :01:25.people those with at least, pay the biggest prize to solve a problem we
:01:25. > :01:31.did not cause. If we get a continuation of pay restraint, tax
:01:31. > :01:34.on pensions, job cuts, then I do think 2012 was see a lot of
:01:34. > :01:38.resistance and I hope that is the case because we believe that is
:01:38. > :01:45.entirely the wrong way for the government to go. We will not get
:01:45. > :01:49.anything else, or will we? The current economic circumstances
:01:49. > :01:54.right around the industrialised world. Inevitably the direction of
:01:54. > :02:00.public policy will be job cuts and tax increases because of the
:02:00. > :02:06.enforced austerity. That is the political choice which is made by
:02:06. > :02:10.governments including a run. Isn't that the reality? We do not think
:02:10. > :02:15.it is. We think the shame of Britain at the moment is that no
:02:15. > :02:18.politicians will argue for a different cause. We think that
:02:18. > :02:23.austerity, cuts and a shrinking of the economy is the completely wrong
:02:23. > :02:27.way to go. We think the government's forecasts, which have
:02:27. > :02:33.been so wrong, one of the most interesting ones is that they have
:02:33. > :02:37.had to borrow �110 billion more than forecast to pay for the cost
:02:37. > :02:41.of rising unemployment. Our philosophy is that it has got to be
:02:41. > :02:48.better for people to be in work doing something productive and
:02:48. > :02:54.paying tax rather than out of work, getting welfare. We will pick away
:02:54. > :02:57.at your political plus a B in a moment. Before that, just in terms
:02:57. > :03:02.of the union's strategy, there is a sense in which might look at what
:03:02. > :03:07.you say about the dispute about pensions in particular, running for
:03:07. > :03:12.the last year or more, and I gathered that you relish
:03:12. > :03:16.confrontation. Would you accept that? No matter, I think that is
:03:16. > :03:20.often portrayed by people looking for somewhere to rather than the
:03:20. > :03:25.truth. I do not relish confrontation. I would much rather
:03:25. > :03:31.have a quiet life and let people get about delivering public
:03:31. > :03:35.services an delivering what they take pride in doing. But when I
:03:35. > :03:40.represent some of the lowest paid people in Britain who have had two
:03:40. > :03:45.years of a pay freeze, now have a tax on pensions and their partners,
:03:45. > :03:50.families and communities are suffering, someone has to stand up
:03:50. > :03:55.and say there is an alternative. In that sense I am very determined.
:03:55. > :03:59.You say someone has to stand up and you quote your father, saying, if
:03:59. > :04:05.you stand and fight you may not win, but if you do not fight she was
:04:05. > :04:09.certainly lose. It has become a mantra for you. But Ed Miliband,
:04:09. > :04:14.part of the labour movement of which you are a part, says, strikes
:04:14. > :04:21.are always the consequence of failure on all sides. Note, all
:04:21. > :04:26.sides. And it is a fate here we cannot afford designation. I do not
:04:26. > :04:31.know how many years Ed Miliband has been that reworking under low paid
:04:31. > :04:37.and difficult conditions. Strikes Sarbi last trip short for working
:04:37. > :04:42.people to defend themselves against an attack. -- are the last resort.
:04:42. > :04:48.Nobody would ever go on strike without a good reason. Why did
:04:48. > :04:52.nurses, teachers, Jobcentre workers, go on strike and lose pay. Because
:04:52. > :04:58.after a year of trying to persuade the government of a different
:04:58. > :05:04.course, they refused. End the strike becomes a last resort.
:05:04. > :05:11.this is where we get me once. There was a national strike involving
:05:11. > :05:16.millions. The government made a few amendments to its pensions
:05:16. > :05:20.proposals and in essence they modified it a little bit. Most of
:05:20. > :05:26.the public sector unions have now agreed to go back into talks under
:05:26. > :05:32.is that of Higgins, Parameters, which the government has set. Your
:05:32. > :05:38.unions has refused. You other one now which is out in the cold.
:05:38. > :05:43.we have done has been consistent. We recognise that millions went on
:05:43. > :05:51.strike because they were forced to work longer, pay more and get less.
:05:51. > :05:57.They still face that. The question I pose... I know that, but there is
:05:57. > :06:02.no solidarity any more. If you look at the biggest unions, from G M B
:06:02. > :06:10.to Unison, representing workers and teachers, they have agreed to go
:06:10. > :06:15.into talks on the basis of a government offer. The PCS had said
:06:15. > :06:25.no and you are out and urine. have agreed to take back their
:06:25. > :06:27.
:06:27. > :06:36.executives. -- you are on your own. if it was right to go on strike six
:06:36. > :06:43.weeks ago, why is it OK now? We asked people to lose pay and go on
:06:44. > :06:46.strike against something that has not altered one bit. Many people
:06:46. > :06:52.say it has all to it, including leading officials and the Labour
:06:52. > :06:56.Party. One says they are a really good step in the right direction
:06:56. > :07:00.and a much better deal for public sector workers. Danny Alexander
:07:00. > :07:07.told Parliament he got everything he wanted without spin be an extra
:07:07. > :07:12.penny. Francis Maude was also happy. And they're right. Every public
:07:12. > :07:19.sector worker will be asked to work longer, pay thousands more and get
:07:19. > :07:24.thousands less. They have not agreed to talk. Each union was
:07:24. > :07:30.asked to sign up to accept the three main principles and we said
:07:30. > :07:34.we are not prepared to do that so the government has thrown a start.
:07:34. > :07:38.The final staging or strategic thinking. When it comes to the
:07:38. > :07:43.fight, your father always said, if you fight you have a chance, if you
:07:43. > :07:49.do not fight you have no chance. The Abbey unions have agreed to
:07:49. > :07:56.talk on the basis. Used said your members will continue strike action
:07:56. > :08:02.free 2012. First of all, I do not believe we are being the union.
:08:02. > :08:07.do not know that. But even if you are on your own, you are prepared
:08:07. > :08:12.to keep on striking 32012. We will talk to our members about what they
:08:12. > :08:17.want to do. I'll recommend they refuse to sign away the pensions
:08:17. > :08:24.they were promised decades ago and give the Government what it wants.
:08:24. > :08:28.Any leader who was to say now that they would not look at the material
:08:28. > :08:34.circumstances would be doing a disservice to their members.
:08:34. > :08:39.Already, unite have rejected the agreement in the civil service. Our
:08:39. > :08:45.colleagues in Northern Ireland have done the same. We will not be on a
:08:45. > :08:50.run. It is equally as unfair and unjust on your again as it is with
:08:50. > :08:55.others will stop is it fair and just at public sector workers get
:08:55. > :08:59.the sort of protected pension that these days, if you look across the
:08:59. > :09:06.private sector, is frankly available to only a tiny percentage
:09:06. > :09:09.to of private sector workers? that there in a society where
:09:09. > :09:15.everybody shares sit and burdens when it comes to difficult economic
:09:15. > :09:24.times? I think it is their eye and there would like the same provision
:09:24. > :09:29.to be applied to the private sector. He will not be go. 11 people in the
:09:29. > :09:35.private sector have a defined benefit scheme. It was 36% five
:09:35. > :09:43.years ago. Private sector employee has closed pension schemes while
:09:43. > :09:48.they did very well themselves. The answer a fait equality of misery is
:09:48. > :09:52.to move the pensions upwards. can characterise it any way you
:09:52. > :09:59.want but the reality is that only one in ten private sector workers
:09:59. > :10:05.have a defined benefit pension. Whereas your members, even under
:10:05. > :10:12.the government's modified reform proposals, would all have a form of
:10:12. > :10:16.defined benefit pension. They have maintain that. If you look at the
:10:16. > :10:21.analysis by pension experts they get this sort of pension that a
:10:21. > :10:26.private sector worker would have to put 30% of their salary into a
:10:26. > :10:36.pension pot for. Your members will have a baby is pension been brought
:10:36. > :10:41.to us. That might a fabulous pension. The average pension is
:10:41. > :10:46.�4,000 per year. We do not represent higher-paid people on
:10:46. > :10:50.six-figure salaries. The point remains that they get a guaranteed
:10:51. > :10:56.pension linked to their salary and only a tiny fraction of workers
:10:56. > :11:01.elsewhere in the UK get that privilege. But the fight accept the
:11:01. > :11:06.logic of what you were putting to me, it is to take the view that she
:11:06. > :11:11.must have a race to the bottom. Pensions are not being taken to the
:11:11. > :11:18.bottom. They're being taken further to the bottom than they are wrapped
:11:18. > :11:23.up. They are asked to work belittle longer, contribute more. The lowest
:11:23. > :11:27.paid or not being asked to contribute more. Independent
:11:27. > :11:31.analysis I have seen suggests it remains an outstandingly good deal
:11:32. > :11:37.in the context of what people on similar salaries getting the
:11:37. > :11:42.private sector. Up they are being asked to work eight she is more in
:11:42. > :11:46.some cases, pay thousands of more even when they have had eight you
:11:46. > :11:52.pay freeze. And there is done to get tens of thousands of pounds
:11:52. > :11:58.less. His conversation is wrong because I do not start, everyone
:11:58. > :12:05.else gets less, so we should. I start from, what does your contract
:12:05. > :12:12.they? What we promised? Independent reports do last that the pensions
:12:12. > :12:17.take account of the fact that we have an 8% contribution. These
:12:17. > :12:21.things did not materialise last year. They are his directly where
:12:21. > :12:27.they are because our package of pay and pensions in comparison with the
:12:27. > :12:33.private sector was broadly... were just as. The thunder mental
:12:33. > :12:40.question is, who ultimately bankrolls the public sector
:12:40. > :12:45.pensions? The taxpayer. Exactly, most of them could not dream of
:12:45. > :12:51.having the same pension guarantees as your members. These taxpayers,
:12:51. > :12:57.this pensions are getting worse, will continue to tolerate paying
:12:57. > :13:04.their taxes for the sort of completely ring-fenced, protected
:13:04. > :13:07.pensions you imagine. Let's be clear. In the private sector we
:13:07. > :13:14.have seen the beginnings of resistance of a tax on their
:13:14. > :13:18.pensions. Balloting has begun. If every taxpayer could choose where
:13:18. > :13:28.every penny went, none of mine would be to nuclear weapons or
:13:28. > :13:28.
:13:28. > :13:34.illegal wars or subsidising massive tax relief, which actually costs
:13:34. > :13:42.more, for pensions in the private sector. That it exclusively benefit
:13:42. > :13:49.the rich as. What I stand for is the working people and the hats and
:13:49. > :13:54.have not. I am articulating that the have-nots deserve not to pay
:13:54. > :13:59.such a massive price for something they did nothing to cause. I am
:13:59. > :14:06.sure you have looked at the EU and members of unions similar to yours
:14:06. > :14:11.in Greece, Portugal and Italy. And Ireland. They are experiencing a
:14:11. > :14:16.loss of earnings, jobs, pensions that far outstrips anything that
:14:16. > :14:23.has happened to British workers. Britain has a serious deficit and
:14:23. > :14:28.debt problem. So we knew look overseas, do you not think, we have
:14:28. > :14:32.to be realistic. This is not just about Britain, this is something
:14:32. > :14:42.happening around the industrialised world and we have to step up to the
:14:42. > :14:45.
:14:45. > :14:50.I have nothing but admiration for those who are facing austerity, we
:14:50. > :14:55.are never the ones who have caused the problem. You say that but in
:14:55. > :15:01.many cases there has been no resistance, in Greece they have
:15:01. > :15:06.accepted a 20% slashing. But they have had so many strikes. But not
:15:06. > :15:10.on the issue that there will be cuts in salaries in the civil
:15:10. > :15:15.service. In Ireland, they have the Croke Park agreement, where the
:15:15. > :15:19.unions and the government worked together on long-term public sector
:15:19. > :15:23.pay freezes, accepting the pensions conditions would changed
:15:23. > :15:28.fundamentally. Unions and governments in the light of crisis
:15:28. > :15:32.have worked together, why can't you? Fund the mentally because I
:15:32. > :15:37.don't agree with co-operating with the medicine that is being wrongly
:15:37. > :15:41.applied and to the wrong patient -- fundamentally. If we accept that
:15:41. > :15:45.what is happening at the moment will carry on we will pay a bigger
:15:45. > :15:50.price. I am advocating someone who will articulate something different.
:15:50. > :15:54.For example, why are we all worshipping at the altar of the
:15:54. > :15:59.markets? They do not care about health services or welfare or how
:15:59. > :16:02.people at the bottom do, they care about making money. Why are they
:16:02. > :16:06.now determining social policy, picking prime ministers and
:16:07. > :16:14.governments in European countries, who if you don't challenge their
:16:14. > :16:24.role, ultimately you will always give in to austerity. Is this what
:16:24. > :16:29.
:16:29. > :16:34.the PCS Union leader said, the Trotsky like union leader said?
:16:34. > :16:38.those at the bottom do not pay, there is no way of stopping it...
:16:39. > :16:43.In your socialist analysis of Economics and your rejection of
:16:43. > :16:48.capitalism and the markets, due you think you truly represent the
:16:48. > :16:55.opinions of the 300,000 people in your union -- do you think.
:16:56. > :17:01.accusation of being like Trotsky is bandied around. If I was I would
:17:01. > :17:06.turn your I was, I am a socialist. You were a Socialist Organiser when
:17:06. > :17:13.you were younger and that was a Trotsky like Organisations. In my
:17:13. > :17:16.20s I was but I am here as a socialist... And an anti-
:17:16. > :17:20.capitalist? I think the situation needs to be changed and I think
:17:20. > :17:24.that members support that because if you don't challenge it, you will
:17:24. > :17:29.never defend your pay and pension and job, because the way the system
:17:29. > :17:33.is currently working is to reassure the people at the bottom make the
:17:33. > :17:36.biggest sacrifices. While, if we're honest, those at the top are
:17:36. > :17:41.laughing the way to the bank. The people that caused the problems are
:17:41. > :17:45.still getting big bonuses, they still have their big houses and
:17:45. > :17:50.fabulous pension pots. Public sector workers did nothing to cause
:17:50. > :17:55.it but they are playing with their jobs, livelihoods and salaries.
:17:55. > :17:58.this language of class war turns the British public off. Looking at
:17:58. > :18:03.the figures that have come out in the last week or so, the British
:18:03. > :18:07.public are saying they have much more faith in the Cameron/Osborne
:18:07. > :18:11.economic management and they have in the views they hear from the
:18:11. > :18:16.Labour Party, from Ed Balls and Ed Miliband. There you are way to the
:18:16. > :18:21.left of them as well. It seems your analysis of what is wrong and how
:18:21. > :18:26.to fix it is completely out of whack with the British public's.
:18:26. > :18:29.don't accept that. What I do accept is that it is out of kilter with
:18:29. > :18:33.the main political parties in Britain. When I was being brought
:18:33. > :18:39.up, the difference between the people with the red rosette and the
:18:39. > :18:43.blue rosette was massive. Now in Britain everybody has squeezed to
:18:43. > :18:47.the centre and the differences are far less. The reason Ed Miliband is
:18:47. > :18:53.not very popular is because what people want to hear is a real
:18:53. > :18:56.alternative, not we will cut a bit less slowly because people want to
:18:56. > :19:02.be inspired to that there is a different route possible. That is
:19:02. > :19:07.what I am trying to add the cake. But looking at the parties and
:19:07. > :19:10.polling -- advocate. People in Britain believe that there is a
:19:10. > :19:15.period of austerity and cuts in the size of government and public
:19:15. > :19:20.spending and indeed in things like public sector pensions, that has to
:19:20. > :19:24.be a significant part of any government programme. The BBC poll
:19:25. > :19:30.on November 30th showed over 60% of people supported the strike. On Sky
:19:30. > :19:35.News it was 71%, incredible figures. These figures do not show that
:19:35. > :19:40.people are against this. They do reflect that for two years, every
:19:40. > :19:44.politician have told people the same thing -- has. It has got to
:19:44. > :19:47.happen. What we in the unions are trying to say is that actually
:19:47. > :19:52.there's a different route to get out of these problems, you can grow
:19:52. > :19:56.the economy through investment. There is no doubting you have no
:19:56. > :20:01.time for Ed Miliband, you have called him a disgrace among other
:20:01. > :20:06.things. But there are other union leaders that are out of kilter with
:20:06. > :20:10.your union. The TUC leader, Brendan Barber, said in the summer last
:20:11. > :20:14.year that you were a fundamentalist. When you said to the New Statesman
:20:14. > :20:18.that Arthur Scargill was a leader that you admired, and that a lot of
:20:19. > :20:23.what he did was quite right, a lot of other union leaders looked at
:20:23. > :20:27.what happens to Arthur Scargill, destroying the National Union of
:20:27. > :20:31.Mineworkers and lost with Margaret Thatcher, and thought that is where
:20:31. > :20:36.you are taking the movement now. lived in a South Wales mining
:20:36. > :20:40.community and I was clear that the butchery that took place on our
:20:40. > :20:47.communities, shutting coal mines, was politically motivated and it
:20:47. > :20:51.was wrong. But Arthur Scargill lost? They lost because the rest of
:20:51. > :20:57.the trade union movement in Britain unfortunately did not swing behind
:20:57. > :21:00.them and try to insure that they won. What would be a tragedy is
:21:00. > :21:05.that if you fast-forward to 2012 and the trade union movement
:21:05. > :21:11.repeated the same mistake, and many people decided to accept these
:21:11. > :21:14.attacks on pensions... You call it a mistake, I just look at what is
:21:14. > :21:18.happening right now and the argument on strategy over pensions,
:21:18. > :21:24.and I see you becoming isolated from the rest of the union
:21:24. > :21:29.leadership. It is happening all over again, isn't it? I repeat my
:21:29. > :21:33.point that that remains to be seen. A few union leaders in a room does
:21:33. > :21:37.not represent hundreds of thousands of their members and activists.
:21:37. > :21:40.They have got to convince their members that they are right. What
:21:40. > :21:44.their members will say to them is why did I lose money for something
:21:44. > :21:50.you told me six weeks ago was unacceptable and now you are saying
:21:50. > :21:55.I should accept it? I look forward to that. I find it fascinating that
:21:55. > :21:59.you pitch it as a possible division between union leaders and their
:21:59. > :22:04.memberships, I wonder whether you feel there is a danger of a number
:22:04. > :22:08.of union leaders becoming out of touch with their members. We see
:22:08. > :22:13.union membership declining on the whole but varied very many union
:22:13. > :22:19.leaders are on fat salaries, over �100,000 per year for a bunch of
:22:20. > :22:25.them, your salary is not that either, �86,000 plus a list of add-
:22:25. > :22:31.ons. Are you in touch with your membership? I believe I am. I
:22:31. > :22:36.accept I and a lot more than the average PCAS member. You did say
:22:36. > :22:41.that you would cut your salary to stay in touch with them? I have
:22:41. > :22:46.given �83,000 of my salary back to the unions. You say over more than
:22:46. > :22:50.a decade you have done that but you did take the full salary and you
:22:50. > :22:54.said you wouldn't. Generally, inside your own personal situation,
:22:54. > :23:04.do you think it is wrong for union leaders to be on the money they are
:23:04. > :23:09.on? You can't say UKIP $83,000 -- �83,000 back and then you take the
:23:09. > :23:13.full whack. I am very well paid. I believe I am in touch with the
:23:13. > :23:17.members because I tour the country and I speak to them and I am
:23:17. > :23:21.prepared to articulate their concerns. What the issue is that we
:23:21. > :23:25.have got to focus on is if some union leaders to not have the
:23:25. > :23:30.stomach for the fight, if they don't believe they can win, that is
:23:30. > :23:34.their choice. They have to persuade their members and I will accept the
:23:34. > :23:38.outcome. I am saying that I asked people to go on strike again
:23:38. > :23:44.something and I am therefore not prepared to sign away people's
:23:44. > :23:48.pensions in the next few months. The final thought on the unions'
:23:48. > :23:53.strategy, the biggest unions still financially support the Labour
:23:53. > :23:57.Party. Will they have to end that support given your opinion of where
:23:57. > :24:02.the Labour leadership is failing workers? Ultimately they have got
:24:02. > :24:06.to make their own decision but the view we take at the PCAS is the
:24:06. > :24:10.whole point of supporting the Labour Party is that they should
:24:10. > :24:14.support and speak for the people they represent. Over the last 10 or
:24:14. > :24:19.15 years the Labour Party is not speaking for the bulk of working
:24:19. > :24:23.people and that is why we do not support them. You want those
:24:23. > :24:27.financial ties cut for all the unions? They have to make their