:00:12. > :00:16.for best film. Time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:20.Hungary's centre-right government has galvanised critics at home and
:00:20. > :00:25.abroad with its new controversial constitution. There have been mass
:00:25. > :00:28.protest. Opposition politicians have chained themselves outside
:00:28. > :00:34.public buildings, and the Prime Minister Viktor Orban has been
:00:34. > :00:39.dubbed CEO. There have been rebukes of the Hungarian government over
:00:39. > :00:44.its constitutional changes. They have been warned they will erode
:00:45. > :00:49.democracy and entrench one-party rule. My guest today is Zoltan
:00:49. > :00:55.Kovacs, the communications minister. His government says the reforms are
:00:55. > :01:05.necessary to modernise the Hungarian state, but is it about to
:01:05. > :01:28.
:01:29. > :01:38.Welcome to HARDtalk. Do you accept that Hungary has a very bad image
:01:38. > :01:44.problem in the world? We have a lot to do to improve that image. It is
:01:44. > :01:50.very complicated. We are in a situation... Do you still write
:01:50. > :01:54.your wife? That is a question, there are a number of dancers.
:01:54. > :02:02.do you think you worry in this position that you have this bad
:02:02. > :02:08.image? The new Hungarian government that came into part one year ago is
:02:09. > :02:15.a lot compared to the previous years in the country. Finally we
:02:15. > :02:20.have facilitated major structure changes. But that does not enter
:02:21. > :02:26.the question. You know what the situation is back home in Hungary.
:02:26. > :02:32.The party led by Viktor Orban has seen its population and plump --
:02:32. > :02:37.its popularity plummet. The latest poll says that 84% of people in
:02:37. > :02:46.Hungary think the people is on the wrong track, that Viktor Orban pop
:02:46. > :02:52.--'s population -- population is at an all-time low. The introduction
:02:52. > :02:59.spoke about mass protest in the country. The opposition chaining
:02:59. > :03:04.themselves took the gates of public buildings. This happened one time.
:03:04. > :03:11.It is easy to... But what about the balls that I told you about? You
:03:11. > :03:18.are losing support. But the Christian Democratic Party is
:03:18. > :03:27.leading the polls. I know that she won the election, but I am saying...
:03:27. > :03:32.Why do you think your popularity is plummeting within Hungary? We had a
:03:32. > :03:42.very intensive year and a half. We made very tough decisions. These
:03:42. > :03:46.
:03:47. > :03:52.structure changes required them. We have been under fire. It is not the
:03:52. > :03:57.first time we have come under huge fire from all directions. But lots
:03:57. > :04:05.of countries in the European Union are experiencing huge economic
:04:05. > :04:09.crisis has. But it has not given are hearing about Hungary, with
:04:09. > :04:16.Viktor Orban being dubbed 'Viktator', and people saying he is
:04:16. > :04:21.trampling on rights, and he wants to entrenched himself in the system
:04:21. > :04:26.so he stays in power forever. People are saying the Hungarian
:04:26. > :04:36.government should make use of its two-thirds majority responsibly.
:04:36. > :04:36.
:04:36. > :04:43.That is what we are doing. We know what a huge opportunity it is. The
:04:43. > :04:51.responsibility is very peak for the government. You do not go Rover
:04:51. > :04:55.certain lines. But you are. When he took power in April, he said that
:04:55. > :05:03.he had to this unprecedented two- thirds majority, I am going to be
:05:03. > :05:07.humble and responsible. But he is not doing that, is he? But do you
:05:07. > :05:13.beat your wife, that is the question that comes up. The moment
:05:14. > :05:19.you start to defend yourself, it is not a good position. This is not a
:05:19. > :05:25.one party game. You always have to keep in mind the context and what
:05:25. > :05:30.measures or tools the opposition were used. But it is not just the
:05:30. > :05:33.structural changes. People may accept the fact that you need to
:05:33. > :05:40.change a constitution. But it is the manner in which you have done
:05:40. > :05:47.it. The new constitution came into effect in January, and many say
:05:47. > :05:52.there was not enough consultation. The Council of Europe - which was
:05:52. > :05:58.not part of the European Union - said, the constitution union making
:05:58. > :06:02.process in Hungary has been affected by a lack of transparency,
:06:02. > :06:11.insufficient opportunities for an adequate public debate, and a very
:06:11. > :06:15.tight time-frame. Nine months it is not a tight time-frame. Parliament
:06:16. > :06:21.had a one month special session to talk about it. The constitutional
:06:21. > :06:25.process in Hungary is -- was more than 20 years ago. After the fall
:06:25. > :06:32.of communism, every government started to have preparation for a
:06:32. > :06:38.new one. Opposition members boycotted the vote for the
:06:38. > :06:42.constitution. Is it for you to say, yes, we have given it enough time?
:06:42. > :06:49.You have got a very credible critics saying he did not give
:06:49. > :06:54.enough time to consult. That is one of the problems. They boycotted it,
:06:54. > :07:04.they did not participate. They were invited. That is a decision they
:07:04. > :07:04.
:07:04. > :07:11.took. So route they were invited to the process but they took no part
:07:11. > :07:18.in it, and now calling the constitution unconstitutional is
:07:18. > :07:26.not FS stand.. Every. I put to you, I'm sure you will have an answer.
:07:26. > :07:33.But the current President is seen perhaps to not be seen as rigorous
:07:33. > :07:40.as his predecessor, who was much more robust in sending bills back
:07:40. > :07:45.to Parliament for consideration. He is allowed to do that. But so far,
:07:45. > :07:49.he has not vetoed a single bill. This is a feeling that it is
:07:49. > :07:59.another example of how do you do not have significant checks and
:07:59. > :08:00.
:08:00. > :08:07.balances. I am in no position to criticise or comment on that. The
:08:07. > :08:15.constitutional court has the right as it turns out... It started to
:08:15. > :08:19.get Rawlings on a number of issues. There is no problem. -- Rawlings.
:08:19. > :08:26.The queue can comment on it. The former President was head of the
:08:26. > :08:32.constitutional Kemp. He was a very important man in helping Hungary
:08:32. > :08:37.move towards democracy in the '90s. He knows the life of the land well.
:08:37. > :08:41.But the current President is a party man through and through.
:08:41. > :08:46.Critics are saying this is yet another example that you do not
:08:46. > :08:56.have the robust checks we would like to see. What you mean a party
:08:56. > :09:01.
:09:02. > :09:06.man? He is not any more. But his predecessor was. But --. It is
:09:06. > :09:11.normal to have people who will politicians nominated for public
:09:11. > :09:19.offers. The new role is going to be with the public coffers. You have
:09:19. > :09:26.to judge his or her performance. you expect him to veto any of your
:09:26. > :09:36.bills? I am not a for Teller, nobody knows what is going to
:09:36. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:43.happen. -- fortune-teller. Back to checks and balances, this is a
:09:43. > :09:47.parliamentary system. The approach of checks and balances is not a
:09:47. > :09:54.practical point of view. Sovereignty comes with
:09:54. > :10:00.parliamentary decision. People do not want tyranny of the majority.
:10:00. > :10:05.You're unprecedented two-thirds majority, people want you to use it
:10:05. > :10:12.responsibly. A major preoccupation for your government is the economic
:10:12. > :10:17.crisis. You want $20 billion as a bail-out fund. You know very well
:10:17. > :10:23.that the EU is saying, one big changes have made his you have
:10:23. > :10:27.rules as to how the central bank in Hungary is governed. They say that
:10:27. > :10:35.they feel there is political control as a result of your changes,
:10:36. > :10:43.and that is not allowed. We are aware of that. That is why one of
:10:43. > :10:49.the suggestions made, 15 of them have already been implemented. We
:10:49. > :10:57.have a legal issue -- legal argument over one of them, but...
:10:57. > :11:02.We will simple fiat. They write two outstanding issues, one of them is
:11:02. > :11:07.raising the monetary council, nominated by Parliament. This sets
:11:07. > :11:11.interest rates. But this is going to give you the chance to put Suren
:11:11. > :11:20.people on it, and people feel it will compromise the independence of
:11:20. > :11:27.the central bank. It was not a problem before. But people now see
:11:27. > :11:33.it as a problem. May I come back to the previous issue of the two-
:11:33. > :11:42.thirds majority? Keep in mind that actually, it comes not only from
:11:42. > :11:49.the 53% of the popular vote, as is being put out as an argument by the
:11:49. > :11:58.opposition, but it comes through with individual seats. It would be
:11:59. > :12:04.a 90% majority. It is a huge opportunity and responsibility. In
:12:04. > :12:10.a parliamentary system, two-thirds majority is not a danger in any way.
:12:10. > :12:13.No, but it is the way you use it. But on the independence of
:12:13. > :12:18.Hungary's central bank, this question of how you pack the
:12:19. > :12:24.monetary committee that sets these important rates... That is
:12:24. > :12:33.something that the European Union wants to talk about. During talks
:12:33. > :12:38.with them. Double standards will not apply. What do you mean?
:12:38. > :12:46.same kind of nomination process. They exist in Europe. It existed in
:12:46. > :12:49.2004. We have independent governors of central banks. The government of
:12:49. > :12:58.the central bank is going to possibly be under political
:12:58. > :13:05.authority. It may be under your new rules emerge if the central bank,
:13:05. > :13:10.which would compromise could political independence.
:13:10. > :13:14.sovereignty, the independence of the National Bank is circumstance.
:13:14. > :13:20.No-one is to touch it, we're open to all kinds of criticism should it
:13:21. > :13:27.come that we are not in line with any kind of European Union rules.
:13:27. > :13:32.The current governor of the central bank says that it should not take
:13:32. > :13:37.over the institutions. But that is an opinion. Yes but it is the
:13:38. > :13:43.opinion of the Governor of the central bank. We would like to have
:13:43. > :13:50.the commission a legal argument. DC's Suren governor saying this.
:13:50. > :13:54.You have got internal and external critics making the same point. --
:13:54. > :14:01.This is your internal governor saying this. I am asking you what
:14:01. > :14:06.you say to that? We would like to bring it down to where it belongs.
:14:06. > :14:10.Specifically the legal and substantial issues. We will sort it
:14:10. > :14:16.out. The government of the Hungarian parliament is ready to
:14:16. > :14:19.put it in line. You said it is a double standard. What do you mean?
:14:19. > :14:29.They are expecting Hungary to do things that other countries will
:14:29. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:44.We have had experience with that in the past 1.5 years. I did not bring
:14:44. > :14:48.
:14:48. > :14:58.out the media laws. That is under review. The rulings, the Hungarian
:14:58. > :14:59.
:14:59. > :15:06.constitution France that it will be remanded. Why do you think Hungary
:15:06. > :15:10.is being discriminated against? Having a new constitution.
:15:10. > :15:20.intensity and number of the changes you have made it may be ill-
:15:20. > :15:20.
:15:20. > :15:28.considered. We are in the spotlight. The political changes, the
:15:28. > :15:36.institutional changes have come together in a very negative period
:15:36. > :15:46.in Europe's economic life. I will not say it is unavoidable but there
:15:46. > :15:55.
:15:55. > :16:05.are certain issues in the focus at the moment. In the flat personal
:16:05. > :16:05.
:16:05. > :16:10.income tax rates means any Hungarian government is able to tax
:16:10. > :16:15.a street cleaner at the same rate as a multi-millionaire. If feeling
:16:15. > :16:18.is that is not something that should be enshrined as a basic
:16:18. > :16:28.cardinal law in the institution as it ties the hands of future
:16:28. > :16:37.
:16:37. > :16:41.governments. It can be changed by a majority. As the EU says, this kind
:16:41. > :16:45.of fiscal responsibility it should fall to the elected government of
:16:45. > :16:55.the day. They may want to change the transaction -- transaction
:16:55. > :16:55.
:16:55. > :16:58.rates to make it more progressive. In a constitution we have to
:16:58. > :17:04.address everything. The new government is trying to strengthen
:17:04. > :17:14.up the middle class which is very thin compared to the western parts
:17:14. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:26.of Europe. The backbone of society is very thin and weak. That is one
:17:26. > :17:36.of the best means to strengthen it. Another political role is to
:17:36. > :17:44.
:17:44. > :17:48.preserve the value. He says the European Union is preoccupied with
:17:48. > :17:55.the way is your constitution violates European law. There will
:17:55. > :18:02.be a price to pay if you do not do this. You have huge economic
:18:02. > :18:12.problems. You are not in the euro. The market is dead. What is the
:18:12. > :18:13.
:18:13. > :18:23.point? You have to take action. is not unusual in the Europe to
:18:23. > :18:37.
:18:37. > :18:42.have a collision of interest. The way to solve this, the European way,
:18:42. > :18:47.if we are not in line with the European regulations we will change.
:18:47. > :18:52.The recorder rating agencies has downgraded Hungary's public debt to
:18:52. > :18:58.junk status. You need to regain confidence in the market. All the
:18:58. > :19:06.market has to regain confidence in you. It is not just political
:19:06. > :19:16.negotiations, you know how markets respond. They see Hungary as
:19:16. > :19:21.
:19:21. > :19:31.unpredictable winds off the terrain that tendencies. -- with
:19:31. > :19:38.
:19:38. > :19:48.authoritarian tendencies. You use the term nationalistic and I would
:19:48. > :19:57.
:19:57. > :20:07.use the term patriotic. I think that would be closer to. This is an
:20:07. > :20:11.
:20:11. > :20:17.issue that requires context. They will come back to the markets.
:20:17. > :20:21.need to get their confidence. are aware. This is how we have
:20:21. > :20:27.started to thin away the huge pile of problems left behind by the
:20:27. > :20:37.previous government. We were bailed out in 2009 because of the Liberal
:20:37. > :20:42.government. It was their constitutional and political
:20:43. > :20:52.failure. This huge mandate gets rid of the huge pile of problems, but
:20:53. > :20:54.
:20:55. > :21:04.rebuild the country. Rebuild the country in your image? Tell me one
:21:05. > :21:09.
:21:09. > :21:19.political party who is not trying to put their own image. Milwaukee -
:21:19. > :21:20.
:21:20. > :21:29.- own image docks. Within one year are around 300 judges are going to
:21:29. > :21:37.have to retire. That the usual party the opportunity to nominate
:21:37. > :21:43.hundreds in one go. You have also nominated the wife of a political
:21:43. > :21:53.member who is close to the Prime Minister. Hillary Clinton has
:21:53. > :22:04.
:22:04. > :22:12.quoted been saying that it compromises. Docks. --
:22:12. > :22:18.comprimises... This is a refurbishment of the country. You
:22:18. > :22:24.need to have a new context to judge the constitution. You cannot
:22:24. > :22:31.compare it to the previous one because it is following a major
:22:31. > :22:41.update and a different system. are being judged by the US, the EU,
:22:41. > :22:42.
:22:42. > :22:46.the IMF. The Finnish Foreign Minister says if a country with a
:22:46. > :22:56.constitution it like this would apply for EU membership it would
:22:56. > :23:05.not be accepted. We should defend the opposition and proved that the
:23:05. > :23:11.system will work like the previous one. There are questions with no
:23:11. > :23:20.good answers because of the defensive position. There is no
:23:20. > :23:25.rights or any perspective about our devotion to the European values.
:23:25. > :23:32.people do not accept that, what are you going to do? You people are
:23:32. > :23:38.suffering. It has become a personalise around the Prime
:23:38. > :23:46.Minister. If people were to say we want to see clear singles --
:23:46. > :23:55.signals that Hungary is democratic which you say I would resign so
:23:55. > :24:02.people will know that people -- hungry is open for business. --
:24:02. > :24:10.Hungary. The Prime Minister has been a target for the past 15 years.
:24:10. > :24:16.He was the sole origin of everything that according to the
:24:16. > :24:24.previous government. He is a devoted Democrats and family man. I