:00:08. > :00:11.claims to stop the violence. Time for HARDtalk.
:00:11. > :00:17.Ten months after the wave of Arab unrest reached Syria, President
:00:17. > :00:22.Assad is still in power. Protests continue and there are fears that
:00:22. > :00:27.the country could be sliding into civil war. But there is little
:00:27. > :00:31.appetite from foreign powers for military intervention. So what can
:00:31. > :00:36.the world do to halt the bloodshed? We speak to Bassma Kodmani, a
:00:36. > :00:46.leading figure in the exiled Syrian opposition. Is it time for other
:00:46. > :01:19.
:01:19. > :01:25.Welcome. Should Arab troops to be deployed to get -- Syria, and Abbey
:01:25. > :01:31.leader said some troops should go in and stop the killing. Is that
:01:31. > :01:37.why you would like to see? Our countries have tried their best so
:01:37. > :01:47.far. They should acknowledge and admit that Abbott pressure is not
:01:47. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :01:55.enough. Arab League have no power no means of collation. -- collation.
:01:55. > :02:02.The Syrian re Syrian row co- operating. It is time for the Arab
:02:02. > :02:08.League to move at the issue to an international level. They have sent
:02:08. > :02:13.in monitors but have not centre in any troops. Surely troops could
:02:13. > :02:22.make a difference? How could it? What kind of mandate will they
:02:22. > :02:29.have? What would they do? They need to impose some respect or end falls
:02:29. > :02:39.some decision. Wetter mandate could that be? - a prize to the UN as
:02:39. > :02:40.
:02:40. > :02:50.well. Not in the same way. It never deployed troops except for one
:02:50. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :03:01.President in 1976 and that is not a helpful one. When he once people in.
:03:01. > :03:08.It relies on the co-operation of the regime of. When you say move it
:03:08. > :03:15.to another level, what do you mean? It should go to the UN that Council.
:03:15. > :03:24.It has been 11 months since this bloody uprising has been on. We do
:03:24. > :03:30.not have -- have not had one resolution. The one resolution was
:03:30. > :03:37.vetoed by China and Russia. That was for further sanctions. You are
:03:38. > :03:47.not going to get any resolution by calling for something further.
:03:47. > :03:52.There is no reason to stop trying. We need every decision to condemned
:03:52. > :04:00.the regime. It is legitimate for China to ask for Russia to take
:04:00. > :04:04.responsibility is and to decide it is going to continue to support
:04:04. > :04:11.these regime. They are killing their own people and continue to
:04:11. > :04:18.say why they should continue. want the regime condemned? More
:04:18. > :04:23.than that. It is not enough to just condemn it. It is time to say you
:04:23. > :04:29.need to do what you people are asking you to give. They are
:04:30. > :04:35.clearly asking for the leader to step down. Basque is asked to step
:04:35. > :04:43.down and 6,000 people have died for him to step down. -- Bashar al-
:04:43. > :04:52.Assad. It a warning comes from the Security Council, and if that was
:04:52. > :04:57.accompanied by measurements, I am not saying a military intervention,
:04:57. > :05:03.that would be difficult. What are you talking about? What is the
:05:03. > :05:07.trait you want the UN to put towards Bashar al-Assad? Da had a
:05:07. > :05:16.long history in dealing with conflicts. It should be taken to
:05:16. > :05:21.the Security Council and managed by them. Secondly, they have the means
:05:21. > :05:27.to say within one month from now there would be some serious
:05:27. > :05:32.measures. What serious measures? warning they could be military
:05:32. > :05:42.action. If you do not mourn at the regime that the international
:05:42. > :05:44.
:05:44. > :05:50.community is willing to go all the way, we will not get anywhere.
:05:50. > :05:59.are you going to get? China and Russia have vetoed further
:05:59. > :06:04.sanctions. NATO has no intention to intervene in Syria. Western
:06:04. > :06:08.governments are not keen. You are not going to get that. Doubling
:06:08. > :06:13.from now think to a NATO intervention, there are other
:06:13. > :06:19.options. They have not been tried. There are possibilities for the
:06:19. > :06:24.Security Council to express their will not cover this regime any more.
:06:24. > :06:30.A warning will have some impact. That should be tried. That time has
:06:30. > :06:38.not been made so far. I think it should be legitimately tried.
:06:38. > :06:46.you think it will make a difference? No. They condemned the
:06:46. > :06:50.action and say within a month we will reconsider the issue. Some --
:06:50. > :06:57.under some other measures. That at least time for a political
:06:57. > :07:05.solutions. That will put more pressure on the regime. Could that
:07:05. > :07:12.political solution include a Bashar al-Assad staying? I don't think so.
:07:12. > :07:20.6,000 people died for him to go away. There has been so much demand
:07:20. > :07:25.that has been spilled by his regime. There is no way his regime can stay.
:07:26. > :07:34.He needs to step down then a transitional period can start. The
:07:34. > :07:39.first item is for him to step down. Who is calling for it? You are a
:07:39. > :07:44.member of the Syrian National Council but who do you speak for?
:07:44. > :07:50.We speak for the people on the street who go out and demonstrate
:07:50. > :07:55.at the risk of their lives. That is the first group. We also speak for
:07:55. > :08:05.a much larger community. There are silent groups who dare not come out
:08:05. > :08:13.
:08:13. > :08:23.because they risked their lives. The NCC says anyone who cause of
:08:23. > :08:23.
:08:23. > :08:33.fire own help is a traitor. -- foreign help. They are opposition
:08:33. > :08:34.
:08:34. > :08:44.members, they are a good group of articulate individuals. ACT NCC
:08:44. > :08:45.
:08:46. > :08:50.does not represent them. -- the people say eight. Beagle kennel get
:08:50. > :08:54.you and say you are articulate and intelligent but you are not even in
:08:54. > :09:02.Syria. You were taken out of the country when you're 10. I am there
:09:02. > :09:07.only to have these people get their message out. We rely on people in
:09:07. > :09:12.the streets. We rely on social groups. They are signalling they do
:09:12. > :09:22.want to move but they do won assurances that the regime is about
:09:22. > :09:34.
:09:34. > :09:41.to go. This is an accusation levelled against the Syrian Council.
:09:41. > :09:45.We do not claim to represent anybody bus stop we are not elected.
:09:45. > :09:51.You just said you represent people in Syria. And they should listen to
:09:51. > :09:56.you. They are putting their heads in this council to get what they
:09:56. > :10:06.want. They are holding up signs saying the council represents ours.
:10:06. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:20.But that does not mean we represent them in the sense we were elected.
:10:20. > :10:22.
:10:22. > :10:25.There is no other credibility we can claim besides helping them all.
:10:25. > :10:31.We are doing what we can to save this country that is being torn
:10:31. > :10:38.apart by his regime. We would not hold the responsibility of bringing
:10:38. > :10:47.in foreign trips. After 6,000 dead, who carries a heavy responsibility?
:10:47. > :10:52.Should the killings continue? member from the Catholic Church
:10:52. > :10:57.said, despite the unless you must give it Bashar al-Assad a chance.
:10:57. > :11:05.If the regime falls, it could lead to a civil war and Christians would
:11:05. > :11:09.be the main victims. The regime has done everything they can to cause a
:11:09. > :11:13.civil war. They are arming committees and brainwashing
:11:13. > :11:22.minorities to say they are under threat. No-one is under threat in
:11:22. > :11:29.this country and all communities will be protected. And by that I
:11:29. > :11:35.mean constitutional, the legal. cannot make back guarantee. The
:11:35. > :11:42.Archbishop makes that point. He uses example of Iraq. He says, it
:11:42. > :11:48.detect all the minorities use probably have more than 50% who are
:11:48. > :11:52.behind Bashar al-Assad. That is his argument. You take those minorities
:11:52. > :11:57.and Bashar al-Assad will have the support. These communities are
:11:57. > :12:05.contacting us and telling us it cannot be this way. This regime
:12:05. > :12:11.needs to go. They have lost hope that his regime can restore
:12:11. > :12:19.stability. We know it is gone and it finished. The only way is to see
:12:19. > :12:26.how best to get out of this with as little damage as possible. Why does
:12:26. > :12:34.the Archbishop say that? We do have a lot of religious figures who are
:12:34. > :12:37.tied to his regime in several ways. There is interest and influence. A
:12:37. > :12:43.third to the regimes like to have religious leaders to keep their
:12:43. > :12:48.communities under control. It allows them to survive and prosper.
:12:48. > :12:53.They do this with Sunni leaders as well. Every religious leader is a
:12:53. > :12:58.very comfortable figure for this regime. We are calling for politics
:12:58. > :13:05.back into the society. We are calling for equal citizenship. That
:13:05. > :13:12.has been the motto of every demonstrator. We are one people.
:13:12. > :13:17.They are all part of this. Muslim Brotherhood have joined
:13:17. > :13:24.forces under your umbrella. The Archbishop makes the point that he
:13:24. > :13:28.fears the dominance of Dock -- that dogmatic group. There is no
:13:28. > :13:33.dominance of one group. We are a coalition. We worked out
:13:33. > :13:43.compromises and we agree on a beach and saw the future. We have no
:13:43. > :13:47.
:13:47. > :13:57.problem in agreeing on that future. Why can't we live like the 50s? We
:13:57. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:04.agreed that Constitution Dock. terms of Wight the Syrian National
:14:04. > :14:09.Council is asking for, we ask the community it is a fill up their
:14:09. > :14:13.obligation somehow. He does not want any interference that
:14:13. > :14:19.undermines the 70 of the Syrian people but he also says the
:14:19. > :14:22.protection of civilians will call for the use of force. It is not
:14:22. > :14:27.clear what the Syrian National Council once. We want to do
:14:27. > :14:32.everything to avoid the use of force. It will look realistically
:14:32. > :14:40.at any political option which will bring us to the resort the people
:14:40. > :14:43.want which is his regime believing. If that does not happen, this is an
:14:43. > :14:53.issue for the international community to consider. There is a
:14:53. > :14:53.
:14:53. > :14:57.responsibility. Seven-seat goes away the moment a regime does not
:14:57. > :15:07.protect its own people. If the citizens are threatened by the
:15:07. > :15:11.
:15:11. > :15:19.regime, where his 70? Is it to put What does that mean, she to? The
:15:19. > :15:25.fundamental success or Arvo well at let's revolution. He were alive
:15:25. > :15:32.with the free Syria army, who seemed to be increasingly acted.
:15:32. > :15:41.There was talk of a decision that would surprise the regime and the
:15:41. > :15:45.whole world. The free Syrian army has been very precious and
:15:45. > :15:51.protecting peaceful demonstrations. If there is a village or a city
:15:52. > :15:59.under siege, they come into hand are the one that protect the
:15:59. > :16:06.population. That is the only protection we have. We have no
:16:06. > :16:11.international protection. Observers have not been able to operate in
:16:11. > :16:19.any reasonable way. So what is out there as another option for the
:16:19. > :16:29.people? They actually worship the soldiers who have defected, and are
:16:29. > :16:31.
:16:32. > :16:36.protecting neighbourhoods. The discussions would then have not
:16:36. > :16:41.considered any offensive operations. Their role has been defensive. It
:16:41. > :16:47.will continue to be defensive. They will protect the people and stop
:16:47. > :16:51.the army from killing. As a result of your meetings with the free
:16:51. > :16:55.Syrian army, he produced a statement that talked of
:16:55. > :17:05.strengthening the capacity of the army, what did this -- what does
:17:05. > :17:11.that mean? For the defectors from the army are scattered. There isn't
:17:11. > :17:17.urgent need for them to be held under one chain of command so we do
:17:17. > :17:23.not have chaos. Are you support and then? Are you finding them?
:17:23. > :17:26.supporting that means providing them with the beans to communicate,
:17:26. > :17:33.there is nothing offensive in doing that. You're not providing them
:17:33. > :17:39.that money? We do not have the money to provide them with arms.
:17:39. > :17:48.There is no provision to provide them with arms. It is an attempt to
:17:48. > :17:52.help them in terms of relief. Also to help them improve communications
:17:53. > :17:57.systems amongst each other. So that they to connect with each other and
:17:57. > :18:01.we develop some form of an integrated command. Otherwise we
:18:01. > :18:08.will have ironed groups running across the country with no-one
:18:08. > :18:12.guiding them. That is a very dangerous situation. An actress
:18:12. > :18:21.whispery well known in Syria, she was filmed in front of a cheering
:18:21. > :18:26.crowd as she said, we want the council to prove -- to support the
:18:26. > :18:32.free Syrian army in a practical way. There is an expectation of you to
:18:32. > :18:38.go further. To give practical help. That is what we have described. If
:18:38. > :18:43.they want to strengthen their role and be connected with each other,
:18:43. > :18:49.then they need those means. If they say to you, we need for money for
:18:50. > :18:56.arms, we need help co-ordinating this. Added in the July in a
:18:56. > :19:01.situation where you support them and find their weapons. There are
:19:01. > :19:05.no military means in an agreement. We will hold them structure
:19:05. > :19:11.themselves. We know that there will be moderate factions. People are on
:19:11. > :19:16.their way out of the country. It is an evolving situation. Eventually,
:19:16. > :19:21.we look to have a zone where they can concentrate. If they cannot be
:19:21. > :19:29.concentrated in one area, they are defecting and going to neighbouring
:19:29. > :19:37.countries. The higher we go in the double of military coup defect,
:19:37. > :19:40.this is happening. This army will be the alternative army. He talked
:19:41. > :19:47.about a zone, which has been mentioned before. How would a
:19:47. > :19:52.protected zone work? It is a difficult issue. It beats
:19:52. > :19:56.strategists and legal experts. That is not for the Syrian National
:19:56. > :20:03.Council to say what it would look like. Do you want international
:20:03. > :20:09.help? We definitely want international hub. Are you talking
:20:09. > :20:14.about a no-fly zone? Nobody is describing it the way it's to be
:20:14. > :20:20.described. If that is put at the right Abul, the emergency of the
:20:20. > :20:24.situation. Then we are asking for humanitarian links -- assistance.
:20:24. > :20:30.This is difficult in a country like Syria, because the movement is
:20:30. > :20:36.across the country. If you have a zone somewhere and once the border,
:20:36. > :20:43.then you might need military needs to protected. Are you talking about
:20:43. > :20:49.a new flies and, that is the least the way a no-fly zone is believed?
:20:49. > :20:54.We would hunt troops and observers on the ground. It can be a safe
:20:54. > :20:58.zone protected by military means. This is for the International
:20:58. > :21:01.Committee and experts to study. all that you want and the weather
:21:01. > :21:10.to talk, you know that there is a reluctance from the outside world
:21:10. > :21:15.to get involved. AC Syria and the neighbourhood it is in, they're
:21:15. > :21:19.terrified of interfering because of the damage it might lead to. It is
:21:19. > :21:27.difficult to see how you will get what you are asking for. Steve
:21:27. > :21:31.accept that? Can we asked the world body descended as a message? What
:21:31. > :21:36.kind of message is up sending to the regime? It can carry on doing
:21:36. > :21:43.what you're doing and nothing will happen to you. Threatening him by
:21:43. > :21:49.saying that he should go the way, he will not go away. The accusation
:21:49. > :21:55.then, is that they get any military. We're not turning military, we're
:21:55. > :22:02.trying to protect the peaceful nature of the revolution. Where is
:22:02. > :22:06.the International Committee? It is unwilling to do anything. We have a
:22:06. > :22:12.very dangerous message that is reaching the regime. The
:22:12. > :22:15.International Committee as a whole will say that they are finished and
:22:15. > :22:20.they are not protecting us. We have not spoken of an intervention. We
:22:20. > :22:30.have not tried that route. Is the International Committee protecting
:22:30. > :22:37.aside back? I think so. As long as he thinks he Syrian issue cannot
:22:37. > :22:43.make its way for a serious discussion and no serious measures
:22:43. > :22:46.will be taken, then why wouldn't he continue? The way that you talk
:22:46. > :22:54.about the army and the co- ordination July helping with across
:22:54. > :23:00.the country, we know that there are 40,000 in the army. But 200,000 in
:23:00. > :23:06.the Syrian army. You talk about more defections. It is building up
:23:06. > :23:11.to an all-out civil war, is it what you see? No. You are forgetting
:23:11. > :23:18.other social groups. They are beginning to detect, these are
:23:19. > :23:23.technocrats from the regime. Key figures in the regime. The business
:23:23. > :23:31.sector with huge economic interests have support of the regime are now
:23:31. > :23:37.calling us. They want to know. The bridgeable. Why is it safe to turn
:23:37. > :23:44.around a gaze to the regime. We need to listen to them carefully.
:23:44. > :23:48.Even the minorities. They know that the regime is on its way out and
:23:48. > :23:53.that their future lies with this society. They are part of it and
:23:53. > :24:01.have always been part of it. could you make them felt confident
:24:01. > :24:05.that what you're proposing is going to mean a saker Syria for them?
:24:05. > :24:13.history of Syria it indicates that there has been no massacre against
:24:13. > :24:21.any minority. We have to put Christian and Muslim and Jewish