:00:05. > :00:13.star has been found by viewers of the BBC programme Stargazing Live.
:00:13. > :00:17.Time for HARDtalk. GUS O'Donnell has been at the heart
:00:17. > :00:23.of government in Britain for 30 years, working closely with the
:00:23. > :00:29.last four British prime ministers. He was John Major's press secretary.
:00:29. > :00:34.Under Tony Blair, he took on the top job in the Civil Service, a
:00:34. > :00:39.position he held when Gordon Brown took over. He was the one holding
:00:39. > :00:43.the negotiations for Britain's first coalition government since
:00:43. > :00:47.the Second World War. He has finally retired after two years of
:00:48. > :00:52.David Cameron as prime minister. With his former position being
:00:52. > :01:02.split into three jobs, does the man who used to sign his matters with
:01:02. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:17.his initials - God - recognise that he was too powerful? -- his letters.
:01:17. > :01:22.Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:22. > :01:28.I suppose the decision to split your former position in to three
:01:28. > :01:33.roles implies that it was too large a role. Do you except that?
:01:34. > :01:38.situation has changed. We are now in a coalition government. The
:01:38. > :01:42.chief policy adviser to the Prime Minister is now the chief policy
:01:42. > :01:47.adviser to the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister. The Cabinet
:01:47. > :01:51.Secretary role got bigger. The head of the civil service role is
:01:51. > :01:55.crucial over the next few years as we go through deficit reduction.
:01:55. > :02:00.There are serious issues there in terms of a leading and managing
:02:00. > :02:07.change in the civil service. The Cabinet Office is a role that I
:02:07. > :02:11.would have done -- that I would have delegated. Because when the
:02:11. > :02:16.coalition government came in under its large efficiency agenda, they
:02:16. > :02:24.transferred a lot of work that was done by other departments into that
:02:24. > :02:29.Cabinet Office role. You were too powerful? I would not say that, I
:02:29. > :02:33.just had a lot of jobs with different aspects. For the
:02:33. > :02:39.circumstances of coalition, when you are trying to get such a large
:02:39. > :02:44.deficit down, it makes more sense to have a number... To split those
:02:44. > :02:47.two large jobs into the head of the Civil Service and the Cabinet
:02:47. > :02:54.secretary. Under different circumstances, if we return to a
:02:54. > :02:59.single party government, I can imagine that they would be put back
:02:59. > :03:09.together. Upon your retirement, it was said by some that all too often,
:03:09. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:15.elected ministers become mere mouthpieces for the system of
:03:15. > :03:23.technocracy. That voters imagine that they are voting for people who
:03:23. > :03:30.stand for issues but things really changed. Ice... I suspect that he
:03:30. > :03:34.will disagree with that. However, is anything in that statement true?
:03:34. > :03:40.No, the point of the Civil Service is that we are there to serve
:03:40. > :03:45.whoever the British public vote for. We are a democracy. I am a strong
:03:45. > :03:51.believer in democracy. I am very concerned about countries in Europe,
:03:51. > :03:56.where they have technocracy is. One is saying is that a functioning
:03:56. > :04:02.civil service is a rarity and it allows the government to work
:04:02. > :04:06.through transitions. When government changes from one party
:04:06. > :04:11.to another or for one party to a coalition government, the
:04:11. > :04:15.impartiality of the civil service comes into its own. Yes, for a
:04:15. > :04:21.while, we are there to help the new government sort out its priorities
:04:21. > :04:27.and what it wants to do. That is the way it is meant to work. But I
:04:27. > :04:31.wonder how much power you have in that role. You have said that one
:04:32. > :04:37.of your proudest achievements was keeping Britain out of the euro.
:04:37. > :04:43.said that it was the evidence-based policy and has since -- analysis
:04:43. > :04:46.that allowed the politicians to decide. We set out a really
:04:46. > :04:51.comprehensive piece of work and if other countries had done the same,
:04:51. > :04:58.they might have made the same decision. However, you have told an
:04:58. > :05:03.audience of students in 2002 that those five conditions in the
:05:03. > :05:10.evidence-based analysis would never be met and that the decision was
:05:10. > :05:14.not economic but political. For no, that is a mangled misinterpretation.
:05:15. > :05:19.The point I was making was that there would be a vote in parliament
:05:20. > :05:24.before we were doing so it would ultimately be a political decision.
:05:24. > :05:30.Did you believe those five conditions could ever been that?
:05:30. > :05:34.Yes but they were a long way away from being met. We did not have the
:05:34. > :05:39.flexibility in away economy. And what we have seen in economies like
:05:39. > :05:43.those in countries like Greece, where there is not that flexibility,
:05:43. > :05:48.if you have not to your exchange rate and you have someone else
:05:48. > :05:52.setting your interest rate, when times are tough, it can be very
:05:52. > :05:56.difficult. When you look back at his evidence based analysis that
:05:56. > :06:04.you came up with with Gordon Brown who was not politically in favour
:06:04. > :06:08.of the euro... If Tony Blair was... Would he have gone in? He made a
:06:08. > :06:14.number of statements that implied that he believed there would be
:06:14. > :06:19.strongly vantages. He wanted us to assess the political pros and cons.
:06:19. > :06:24.That is what we did. It is for us, the Civil Service, to provide the
:06:24. > :06:32.advice which is based on analysis, and for them to make the political
:06:32. > :06:37.decision as to whether to join or not. You know how different various
:06:37. > :06:42.positions can be. Economics can come up with a number of different
:06:42. > :06:46.positions. Therefore, you are in a position of power. When you say
:06:46. > :06:51.that economics can come up with all sorts of different answers, in this
:06:51. > :06:56.case, the vast majority of economists were very clear. Those
:06:57. > :07:02.who were not clear have probably changed their mind by now. Where we
:07:02. > :07:05.arrived at with that analysis was at exactly the right point.
:07:05. > :07:09.have been at the heart of government for so long - an
:07:09. > :07:14.astonishing accomplishment. To maintain that position, that must
:07:14. > :07:20.rely on you having a good relationship with the man at the
:07:20. > :07:23.top. So far, the one that has become public is that at the end of
:07:24. > :07:28.the time of Gordon Brown be in prime minister, his wife said that
:07:28. > :07:33.when they left Downing Street, she did not shake your hand because
:07:33. > :07:37.there had been a loss of trust between you both. The one thing
:07:37. > :07:41.that I would say about Cabinet secretaries is that you deal with
:07:42. > :07:47.prime ministers and their families. It is a difficult job. I have gone
:07:47. > :07:54.on the record as saying that we should provide for support for the
:07:54. > :07:57.thousands of prime ministers. Sarah Brown was fantastic as the partner
:07:57. > :08:05.of a prime minister. She did tremendous work. You might be a fan
:08:05. > :08:10.of her but she was not a fan of yours. She said that it was a bond
:08:10. > :08:16.of trust and she said that she was not confident in it at the end.
:08:16. > :08:21.What you are trying to do at the end, during that very difficult
:08:21. > :08:25.period, is trying to remain an impartial civil servant, trying to
:08:25. > :08:30.get all the political parties to come to a workable solution. That
:08:30. > :08:34.time was very fraught. Conservatives and Liberal Democrats
:08:34. > :08:44.were talking, he would Democrats and Labour were talking. It was our
:08:44. > :08:49.job to facilitate those talks. that why she was upset? She said
:08:50. > :08:54.that she felt you were leaking stories about Gordon Brown to the
:08:54. > :09:00.media. There were stories about temper tantrums and grabbing civil
:09:00. > :09:06.servants by the lapels. She blamed you for those. The truth is that I
:09:06. > :09:10.am one of the most passionate people against the leaking of
:09:10. > :09:14.privileged information. I have gone out of my way to pursue people who
:09:14. > :09:21.have been leaking information. It is corrosive to good governance.
:09:21. > :09:27.That is why I am against it. that why she was upset about a
:09:27. > :09:33.perceived breach of trust? honest answer is that I do not know
:09:33. > :09:38.and you would have to ask her. you upset by that? Obviously, you
:09:38. > :09:41.try to maintain trust. That is important for everyone. I have
:09:41. > :09:46.worked with different prime ministers for different parties and
:09:46. > :09:50.of course you want to maintain that trust not just for the Prime
:09:50. > :09:56.Minister but for their partner and their families as well. Yes,
:09:56. > :10:00.absolutely I am upset but I feel with a very clear conscience that I
:10:00. > :10:05.try my very best to maintain relations with all of the prime
:10:05. > :10:11.ministers and their partners. say that you are optimistic. Ha you
:10:11. > :10:19.still optimistic? You like to leave a post feeling that you're done
:10:19. > :10:24.your best for the people involved. If at some point, I have reached...
:10:24. > :10:28.If someone feels they cannot trust me, then I have failed in that part.
:10:28. > :10:34.You worked closely with Gordon Brown and there must have been a
:10:34. > :10:38.good working relationship at the beginning. However, at some point,
:10:38. > :10:44.things went wrong. In his first major speech since leaving office,
:10:44. > :10:49.he quoted advice from you which he felt was mistaken - that he should
:10:49. > :10:54.not hold an inquiry into phone hacking. At some point, the
:10:54. > :10:59.relationship between the two of you do break down. If the relationship
:10:59. > :11:05.between Cabinet secretaries and prime ministers has got to be
:11:05. > :11:11.strong. There has got to be honest advice. It is important for us to
:11:11. > :11:17.speak the truth to power, privately. And I have the highest respect for
:11:17. > :11:22.Gordon Brown. If we look back to the financial crisis of 2008, the
:11:22. > :11:26.London conference of the G20, it was really important for the
:11:26. > :11:30.country and the world that we had someone with his economic and
:11:31. > :11:34.financial experience and credibility on the world stage to
:11:34. > :11:40.allow the world to move forward away from the path of protectionism,
:11:40. > :11:45.which could have been incredibly damaging. He wanted to hold an
:11:45. > :11:48.inquiry into phone hacking and he pressed you on the matter. You said
:11:48. > :11:54.that it would be seen as politically motivated. This was
:11:54. > :11:59.just ahead of the election. I made it clear, and the documents
:12:00. > :12:05.relating to this have now been made public and demonstrate that, that
:12:05. > :12:10.on the basis of the evidence that we had at that time, it would seem
:12:10. > :12:16.strange to call that an inquiry at that point in time. Do you regret
:12:17. > :12:21.that? I regret that we did not have the evidence that they have now. If
:12:21. > :12:27.we had that, we would have absolutely gone for an inquiry. In
:12:27. > :12:34.fact, I was involved in seeking with every member of the Leveson
:12:34. > :12:39.Inquiry to ask them to be involved in such an inquiry. We reached a
:12:39. > :12:45.point when Gordon Brown says, I deeply regret my inability to do at
:12:45. > :12:49.that point in time of what I want to to do. It appears from that that
:12:49. > :12:54.you actually stopped the Prime Minister from doing something. And
:12:54. > :13:00.we return to the issue of power. advised him that on the basis of
:13:00. > :13:05.the evidence we had at that point, I, personally, could not see that
:13:05. > :13:12.there was enough evidence there. Obviously, we have enough evidence
:13:12. > :13:17.now and an inquiry has been set up. You say that you do not believe in
:13:17. > :13:22.leaking. However, who have admitted that you have spoken with him. You
:13:22. > :13:26.have told a committee of MPs that you spoke with Gordon Brown about
:13:26. > :13:30.how to get the best out of the Civil Service. That is a
:13:30. > :13:39.conversation we always have with the prime minister. These are
:13:39. > :13:48.difficult positions and quite often, you are pushing people to the limit
:13:48. > :13:54.on an issue that is evolving 247.. Eat is important that you get the
:13:54. > :14:01.best out of people and made sure that they also get some rest at
:14:01. > :14:06.times so they are working at their best and most efficient.
:14:06. > :14:11.Did he push the Civil Service to hide? I do not think so. It is for
:14:11. > :14:21.people like the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that the Civil Service
:14:21. > :14:22.
:14:22. > :14:26.They all in their different ways pushed in different respects. It is
:14:26. > :14:34.the question of different personalities, different strengths.
:14:34. > :14:42.When you look back at Sir John Major, he had a very relaxed,
:14:42. > :14:46.intimate and friendly style. Tony Blair was St -- a supreme performer.
:14:46. > :14:51.Gordon Brown was a brilliant person to have in the middle of a
:14:51. > :14:56.financial crisis. David Cameron and Nick quake at two people who've
:14:56. > :15:02.really trust each other and can make a Coalition work. They all
:15:02. > :15:12.have strengths and weaknesses. They have done great things. Was Gordon
:15:12. > :15:18.Brown a bully? He was someone who was very clear about what he wanted.
:15:18. > :15:26.He behaved in his own style. I would never describe him as a bully.
:15:26. > :15:31.But she did not say he was not? did not describe him as one. You
:15:31. > :15:36.say they push the civil servants. It is your job to push back. Unit
:15:36. > :15:42.had to do that with David Cameron didn't you? It is part of the
:15:42. > :15:46.relationship between a cabinet secretary and a prime minister. He
:15:47. > :15:55.will of the is the question them on various issues. You have retired
:15:55. > :16:04.three weeks ago. He left with a pension, from a salary of $240,000,
:16:04. > :16:11.a pension of �100,000. Can you see why civil servants, we have been a
:16:11. > :16:17.terrible financial crisis, can you see why civil servants who used to
:16:17. > :16:24.work for you might look at the arrangement and say it is not fair?
:16:24. > :16:29.It is not what civil servants say to me. It is a system we have, it
:16:29. > :16:34.isn't very much related to your final salary. If you find a be so
:16:34. > :16:40.very, that is what you're entitled to, that is the pension you get. I
:16:41. > :16:45.have emphasised this as I went up and down the country. This is far
:16:45. > :16:50.away from the average. The average civil service pension is around
:16:50. > :16:58.�7,000. I sped to thousands around the country who are facing tough
:16:58. > :17:03.times. They run the middle of a pay freeze, the right job cuts. We are
:17:03. > :17:10.currently changing the pension terms. We are moving to a career
:17:10. > :17:16.average scheme, it will be fairer. It will reduce the pension of
:17:16. > :17:26.people like me and redistributed. You are heading off with this at a
:17:26. > :17:28.
:17:28. > :17:32.time when there are negotiations. To the head of the public services
:17:32. > :17:38.union says the picture looks to side to that -- did decidedly more
:17:38. > :17:43.bleak for the ranks. A I talked to and had a relationship with many
:17:43. > :17:49.civil servants around the country. It is not an issue they would raise
:17:49. > :17:55.with me. When he talked about the relationship we have had and that
:17:55. > :18:04.negotiations with pensions, a large number of unions have settled on
:18:04. > :18:08.the terms. There are a few still holding out. Are they right to?
:18:08. > :18:13.believe that it is absolutely right for us to put public sector
:18:13. > :18:22.pensions and particularly civil servant pensions on a sustainable
:18:22. > :18:29.basis. It will give them a pension that is a defined benefit. It will
:18:29. > :18:34.not be related to stock markets. they should accept the deal?
:18:34. > :18:38.think it is a sustainable deal, they should take it. I think it is
:18:38. > :18:42.the view of a large number of trade unions. The former Labour minister
:18:42. > :18:49.says it looks like one law for those at the top, and one for those
:18:49. > :18:54.at the bottom. But this does is changed the balance for pensions.
:18:54. > :19:00.It reallocate money away from people at the top like I was, to
:19:00. > :19:08.those at the bottom. It is a good progressive change. And good timing
:19:08. > :19:12.on your part? You cannot help when you retire. That is life. One of
:19:12. > :19:22.the things you have done his to look a head at the challengers this
:19:22. > :19:26.country faces. Such as keeping this kingdom united. Will we face a
:19:26. > :19:33.decision by the end of the next few years over whether to keep the
:19:33. > :19:39.union? It is a matter of political debate. I think it is quite likely
:19:39. > :19:44.that it was there in the SNP manifesto, it will be likely that
:19:44. > :19:52.there is one. What is the likelihood of them getting their
:19:52. > :20:02.way.? The Prime Minister has said that this is a matter for the
:20:02. > :20:03.
:20:03. > :20:10.people of Scotland. The SNP want independence. There may even be a
:20:10. > :20:18.lot more devolution and powers to Scotland. Will this be the last few
:20:18. > :20:22.years of the Union? I think it is far too early to say. It is looked
:20:22. > :20:28.at opinion polls now, if there was a referendum tomorrow in Scotland
:20:28. > :20:35.they would vote to keep the union. We will have to see. If you looked
:20:35. > :20:41.at Wales as well, strong opinion polls show that they want to stay
:20:41. > :20:47.within the Union. At the moment, the status quo of books like
:20:47. > :20:57.staying, but who can tell? mentioned the durability of the
:20:57. > :20:59.
:20:59. > :21:03.coalition. Will it survive? They passed through Parliament for
:21:03. > :21:07.fixed-term parliament. Instead of the incumbent government being able
:21:07. > :21:14.to choose when they will have an election, there will be a fixed
:21:14. > :21:24.term. Estimate that it goes to the full term, one made 20 15th there
:21:24. > :21:27.
:21:27. > :21:31.will be an election. -- in May, 2015 they will be an election. Both
:21:31. > :21:37.parties have argued strongly a committee to there. They have come
:21:37. > :21:42.through that. From what I have seen of the way the Prime Minister and
:21:42. > :21:51.Deputy work together, the trust they have, my money is on them
:21:51. > :21:56.lasted the full term. He said that your advice on the coalition. If
:21:56. > :21:59.you think about it, it is binding to teamed together. If you want
:21:59. > :22:07.them to develop trust and work together on the big problems facing
:22:07. > :22:15.the country, he did not want them to start off working on an hairier
:22:15. > :22:20.what they profoundly disagree. One side will win, at one side will
:22:20. > :22:25.lose. Then you have to bring the two back together and make them a
:22:25. > :22:32.team again. He have made references to the relationship of the two of
:22:33. > :22:37.the top. Perhaps the problem is further down? If the relationship
:22:37. > :22:43.at the top works, then i think that will ensure that it permeates
:22:43. > :22:53.through the whole of the Cabinet. He talked about the importance of
:22:53. > :22:54.
:22:54. > :22:59.being impartial. Do you go? Yes. I have given talks in schools about
:22:59. > :23:04.the importance of people who go out of their way to vote. If we did not
:23:04. > :23:09.use it, it would be a terrible tragedy. What is it like to go from
:23:09. > :23:16.the polling booth, back to Downing Street to carry on working with
:23:16. > :23:21.somebody who you may not have voted for? That is the nature of being an
:23:21. > :23:26.impartial civil servant. You know that who you work a week to work
:23:26. > :23:32.for his to the British electorate had decided,... Do you think the
:23:32. > :23:37.British prime ministers may have known how you voted for? No. They
:23:37. > :23:42.never asked me. It is not really an issue. Inside the British -- the
:23:42. > :23:48.British system, when David Cameron came in as Prime Minister, he had
:23:48. > :23:55.the whole of the Office who had been working for Gordon Brown carry
:23:55. > :24:04.on working for David Cameron. He did not change anybody. As people