:00:01. > :00:10.have control of a suburb in Damascus.
:00:10. > :00:15.That's it from me tonight. It is time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:20.Just how resilient are the foundations of the Nigerian states?
:00:20. > :00:26.We may be about to find out. Africa's most populous country has
:00:26. > :00:34.been rocked by a wave of shootings, orchestrated by Boko Haram, a
:00:34. > :00:41.militant group incense on its -- intent on targeting the people of
:00:41. > :00:51.the country. My guess has been a person trying to reach out to the
:00:51. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:09.group. How can Nigeria of for it sectarian conflicts? -- of -- of
:01:09. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:26.Welcome to HARDtalk. T Macro. have seen a series of shocking or
:01:26. > :01:35.violent attacks by Boko Haram inside Nigeria. Why the new
:01:35. > :01:45.incenses the to their campaign of violence? -- intensity. There is
:01:45. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:58.the need for us to get to know how we can up by the violence -- up --
:01:58. > :02:02.
:02:02. > :02:12.abide. You will have to translate to me the meaning of the full name.
:02:12. > :02:14.
:02:14. > :02:24.It is a group of Islam this -- people dedicated to the promotion
:02:24. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:33.of Islam. It is an extreme Muslim group, commonly known as Boko Haram.
:02:33. > :02:42.That translates to say that Western education is forbidden. That gives
:02:42. > :02:49.an idea of the extent see which they are committed to promoting an
:02:49. > :02:59.extreme Muslim of perspective. is due to an extent. In reality,
:02:59. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:09.when the group was founded in 2002, it was not seen as a file and grew.
:03:09. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:32.-- as a violent group. They dream about Nigeria is an Islamist state.
:03:32. > :03:38.I will repeat my question. As you said, they have been around since
:03:38. > :03:46.2002. In the last few months we have seen the most shocking forms
:03:46. > :03:55.of violence. We have seen Christians killed in charges. Why
:03:55. > :04:01.is this happening now? -- in churches. To understand these
:04:01. > :04:10.bombings we have to know how this came about. Before 2009, the
:04:10. > :04:20.organisation was not violent. I do not share their ideology. The
:04:20. > :04:23.
:04:23. > :04:33.crackdown on the group in 2009 which led to the killings of their
:04:33. > :04:39.
:04:39. > :04:48.leaders pushed the group into exile. They bombed themselves to fight. --
:04:48. > :04:53.they armed. You are a leading human rights advocate. Are you saying
:04:53. > :05:03.they can only be understood as a reaction to a Nigerian security
:05:03. > :05:11.
:05:11. > :05:16.crackdown? First of all... They are extreme and very Conservative. They
:05:16. > :05:26.have been likened to the Taliban. They have hidden their own
:05:26. > :05:29.
:05:29. > :05:39.philosophies. They follow a 12th- century is a must sculler, who died
:05:39. > :05:45.
:05:45. > :05:55.in a 1328 -- Islamist scholar. They have been campaigning, peacefully.
:05:55. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:06.In 2009 violence was directed towards them. The government at
:06:06. > :06:13.that time refused to heed to their calls for justice and they were
:06:13. > :06:22.forced to take up arms. I am struggling to understand how you
:06:22. > :06:29.believe that before this series of City is the incidence in 2009, the
:06:29. > :06:39.group was a peaceful group -- incidents. Any group that demands
:06:39. > :06:39.
:06:39. > :06:43.the establishments of Islamist Sharia law and people who are not
:06:43. > :06:53.like them are secondary citizens, they cannot be regarded as a
:06:53. > :06:56.
:06:56. > :07:04.peaceful organisation? We have many sex been Nigeria... sects in
:07:04. > :07:14.Nigeria. De how many Muslim up Nigeria's share their views? I do
:07:14. > :07:22.
:07:22. > :07:32.not. How many Muslim Nigerians? Many Muslims in Nigeria once a
:07:32. > :07:38.
:07:38. > :07:46.country ruled by a Islamist principles -- once up. -- want.
:07:46. > :07:56.Known be in the country would say they do not like -- Merle one in in
:07:56. > :08:07.
:08:07. > :08:17.the country would say they do -- no one in the country would say they
:08:17. > :08:21.
:08:21. > :08:31.do not like Christians. It is clear attacks on Churches is pushing the
:08:31. > :08:36.
:08:36. > :08:46.country to civil war. Before we get there, you have given me an
:08:46. > :08:47.
:08:47. > :08:57.explanation of the lead up to violence. Is it not clear there is
:08:57. > :09:02.
:09:02. > :09:12.a link between Boko Haram and other outside groups? Issues of terrosim
:09:12. > :09:18.
:09:18. > :09:28.cause concern. Boko Haram's leaders have made it clear that have links
:09:28. > :09:29.
:09:29. > :09:39.with other groups. Amoung them you have people who have fought in
:09:39. > :09:46.
:09:47. > :09:52.Afganistan. So is is not part of a gloabl network? There are links
:09:52. > :10:02.with groups in the Niger and Somali groups? So it is not home-grown
:10:02. > :10:26.
:10:26. > :10:29.anymore? It started home-grown but has become a global concern. If you
:10:29. > :10:39.accept that, why do you insist your govenment should be reaching out to
:10:39. > :10:44.
:10:44. > :10:49.their and have dialogue? With this kind of terrosim, you can either
:10:49. > :10:59.fight it or sit down and talk. We have been fighting them for two
:10:59. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:16.years. This has just to the killings of innocent people. People
:11:16. > :11:18.
:11:18. > :11:26.like me believe there needs to be a sit-down. There was terrorism and
:11:27. > :11:36.violence raging for decades. Nigeria sat down with other groups
:11:37. > :11:55.
:11:55. > :12:05.and found solutions. So you want a carrot approach to a group that
:12:05. > :12:06.
:12:06. > :12:14.have killed 180 civilians and Christians in church? A carrot was
:12:14. > :12:24.also offered to the people in the Niger Delta. If that could have
:12:24. > :12:34.been done in the last two years... Fighting them has not worked.
:12:34. > :12:45.
:12:45. > :12:48.have just changed your mind. One of the reason you have said we should
:12:48. > :12:58.fight them is because of the govenment's policy of appeasing
:12:58. > :13:09.
:13:09. > :13:13.terrorists? What I wrote, where things kept changing, now it is
:13:13. > :13:23.clear the insurgency cannot be crushed by the use of force. Is it
:13:23. > :13:30.
:13:30. > :13:40.clear? Some people say the govenment was never serious about a
:13:40. > :13:42.
:13:42. > :13:52.real crackdown. You could say a real commitment could eliminate
:13:52. > :14:05.
:14:05. > :14:15.this problem. In one area of Nigeria they are fighting the group.
:14:15. > :14:15.
:14:15. > :14:25.But the attacks have increased in ferocity. If Boko Haram attacks
:14:25. > :14:42.
:14:42. > :14:52.churches, you have Muslim leaders There was a policy of giving money
:14:52. > :14:53.
:14:53. > :15:00.to militants. I can say, they also bombed, killed, vandalised.
:15:00. > :15:06.could discuss this for a long time. There are many differences, but
:15:06. > :15:16.that is not the focus of this interview. You have reached out to
:15:16. > :15:20.
:15:20. > :15:25.Boko Haram, you have been to their northern place, you have spoken to
:15:25. > :15:31.people who were related to one of the leaders, in an effort to
:15:31. > :15:40.establish dialogue. I would put it to you that your effort failed.
:15:40. > :15:50.has not failed. With respect, people know that two days after you
:15:50. > :15:57.negotiated with them, Boko Haram then murdered a co-worker. He was
:15:57. > :16:07.not killed by them. I reached out to the group and asked them how and
:16:07. > :16:12.
:16:12. > :16:17.why. They believe that he was murdered by a Boko Haram. Boko
:16:17. > :16:24.Haram came out to the media and denied killing him. But nobody
:16:24. > :16:30.believes that. Where would you believe it? They owned up to what
:16:30. > :16:40.they do it. But these are murderers of innocence. Why should we believe
:16:40. > :16:46.them? They are, but in clear terms. He was not killed by the group
:16:46. > :16:55.because they came out openly and denied it. They have never denied
:16:55. > :17:00.water they have done. If you are so confident of the word of Boko Haram,
:17:00. > :17:06.the degree that you can trust them to stick to their word, what is the
:17:06. > :17:11.deal that the Nigerian government should be offering these people?
:17:11. > :17:21.all the attacks they have launched, it came with a warning. No it did
:17:21. > :17:27.not. How can you say that? Hold on. How can you say that the people in
:17:27. > :17:37.that church who were murdered at Christmas had a warning? That meet
:17:37. > :17:37.
:17:37. > :17:47.telly it. A warning by a terrorist organisation. You can take a major
:17:47. > :17:55.efforts to protect the citizens, or you except the demands. The
:17:55. > :17:59.government did not do either of those things. Are you suggesting
:17:59. > :18:05.that these Christians were going to be murdered and the government
:18:05. > :18:13.simply stood by and just watch it happen? The leader of the Boko
:18:13. > :18:16.Haram issued threats to the police and the government. They said if
:18:16. > :18:26.their members are not released, they would take action. The
:18:26. > :18:29.government did not take that threat seriously. We are dealing with a
:18:29. > :18:35.government that does not take threats or advice from people like
:18:35. > :18:40.me. We need to sit down with this group so the problem can end.
:18:40. > :18:43.Earlier you mentioned the prospect of civil war. I have been reading
:18:43. > :18:48.interviews with people from the Norse who are living in the south
:18:48. > :18:54.end feel threatened because of retaliation against more than us, I
:18:54. > :18:57.have also read many interviews with southerners, Christians living in
:18:57. > :19:06.the north who feel threatened and have basically been told they have
:19:06. > :19:11.three days to get out of town. On both sides of the division there is
:19:11. > :19:20.feeling that they are not fundamentally threatened. How real
:19:20. > :19:25.is the prospect of mass sectarian violence? Heat is not dependent on
:19:25. > :19:30.the attacks by Boko Haram. It is dependent on the ability of the
:19:30. > :19:36.leadership in the country to offer leadership in times of crisis. Also
:19:36. > :19:44.the ability of Muslim leaders to come out openly and to make a clear
:19:44. > :19:53.opposition. It is also dependent on Christian leaders and their ability
:19:53. > :19:57.to exercise restraint. The violence that is going on now is violence
:19:57. > :20:07.between Muslims and Christians, but the Boko Haram have made it clear
:20:07. > :20:08.
:20:08. > :20:15.they are going to fight. They attacked churches. People like me
:20:15. > :20:21.are trying to bring that to eight - - to an end. President Goodluck
:20:21. > :20:27.Jonathan suggested the country was in a more serious situation then it
:20:27. > :20:35.was at the start of the civil war in the '60s. Do you agree?
:20:35. > :20:41.should not lament, he should offer a leadership. When he laments,
:20:41. > :20:48.there is no solution. It is true that Nigeria is in a perilous
:20:48. > :20:58.situation. But what we need now is a leader who will inspire and
:20:58. > :20:59.
:20:59. > :21:05.provide confidence for the people. He should assure the people of the
:21:05. > :21:09.government's intention to protect their lives. You said it is time
:21:09. > :21:16.for Muslim leaders... You're not a religious leader, you were a
:21:16. > :21:19.secular leader, but I would put you in that category. Very well
:21:19. > :21:24.respected Muslims in Nigeria who have a voice in their community.
:21:24. > :21:32.You said it was time for them to ensure that the message is Muslims
:21:32. > :21:37.want a unified Nigeria. But you said, many Muslims do what Sharia
:21:37. > :21:46.law across the nation. They do want to leave in an Islamic Nigeria. How
:21:46. > :21:51.do those statements go together? Muslims in northern Nigeria warned
:21:51. > :21:57.that a well for themselves. When I say that Muslims should come out
:21:57. > :22:04.and make a queue position of their desire, I need it clear that
:22:04. > :22:11.Christian leaders must also exercised restraint. Some of them
:22:11. > :22:18.are a making it difficult. Data suggesting that what Boko Haram
:22:19. > :22:24.have done is reflective of the wishes of Muslims. It is not true.
:22:24. > :22:31.I must also refer to another grim reality of Nigeria. Protest over
:22:31. > :22:37.the government's attempt to hike the price of fuel. It sought troops
:22:37. > :22:41.on the streets of Nigeria's major cities, violence between security
:22:41. > :22:46.forces and workers and demonstrators. It made me wonder
:22:46. > :22:53.how stable the foundations of Nigerian democracy are. What do you
:22:53. > :23:02.think the answer is? Nigerian democracy has been through
:23:02. > :23:08.troubling times. But all the time we have been able to recover from
:23:08. > :23:14.shocks and vibrations. What is happening today when it comes to
:23:14. > :23:20.the protest, these are all realities of democracy. In Africa,
:23:20. > :23:26.there has never been a country he has such a vibrant civil society
:23:26. > :23:34.like Nigeria. You see hundreds of thousands of the street demanding
:23:34. > :23:40.change. The very fact that you can see people protesting his prove
:23:40. > :23:46.that the democracy is working. applies to the economic troubles
:23:46. > :23:50.and also the sectarian issues. You think that in the end the
:23:50. > :23:57.democratic government of Nigeria, and some would argue it is not, is
:23:57. > :24:01.capable of meeting the challenge? They have no option. Why were
:24:01. > :24:05.people in the street? The government decided to withdraw
:24:05. > :24:10.subsidy, which the common people believed was an attempt to ruin
:24:10. > :24:16.their lives and impoverish them. Despite all economic reasons given
:24:16. > :24:23.by the government, the people do not believe it. I do not think that
:24:23. > :24:31.protests and civil disobedience can bring down the democracy. In a word,