:00:15. > :00:18.That is a summary of the headlines. Now what is time for HARDtalk.
:00:18. > :00:21.Living as an openly gay man in socially conservative Africa is
:00:21. > :00:24.hard enough, but Edwin Cameron went even further. He was the first
:00:24. > :00:28.public official in South Africa to reveal his HIV positive status.
:00:28. > :00:30.Nelson Mandela appointed him a judge and he now serves on South
:00:30. > :00:33.Africa's constitutional court. There remains high levels of
:00:33. > :00:43.homophobia on the continent - why are gay activists like Cameron
:00:43. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:18.Edwin Cameron, welcomed HARDtalk. In 1986 you developed her HIV
:01:18. > :01:24.status. Then in 1997 you got full- blown AIDS and you thought you were
:01:24. > :01:31.dying. Describe that to us. It was a tough time. I had been a judge or
:01:31. > :01:41.ready for three years. I hoped my HIV would never catch up with me, 3
:01:41. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :01:47.but it did. My advantage was that I had access to anti-retro viral
:01:47. > :01:51.drugs, the only known treatment for AIDS. They gave me my life back.
:01:51. > :01:57.That is what put me on the campaign trail to make these drugs available
:01:57. > :02:02.to other people in Africa. At the time you spent something like a
:02:02. > :02:06.third of your salary on acquiring these NT writ for viral drugs. Lots
:02:06. > :02:10.of people were not so fortunate and could not afford it -- anti-retro
:02:10. > :02:17.viral drugs. Had that make you feel when you saw people unable to buy
:02:17. > :02:21.these drugs? It was in horrible. My campaign in South Africa took on
:02:22. > :02:30.the drug companies on the question of drug pricing and they won the
:02:30. > :02:34.battle. To the drug companies' credit, they conceded that they
:02:34. > :02:41.couldn't withhold anti-anti-viral treatment from people in Africa.
:02:41. > :02:44.But you were fortunate, personally, because as soon as you knew you
:02:45. > :02:51.were HIV-positive, you could keep it under control. My wife was given
:02:51. > :02:55.back to me. It was almost miraculous. Tell us back when that
:02:55. > :03:00.moment hit when you thought - oh my goodness, I think I have got full-
:03:00. > :03:04.blown AIDS. How did you realise that? It was when I couldn't walk
:03:04. > :03:09.up the stairs to my judge's chambers any more from the tea room.
:03:09. > :03:13.I realised that I was desperately sick and I was facing death. It was
:03:13. > :03:17.only two flight of stairs. I stopped one day in the middle of
:03:17. > :03:20.them and I realise that I was so sick that I was likely to be dying.
:03:21. > :03:24.Had it not occurred to you before then? Had it been at the back of
:03:24. > :03:28.your mind? You put it at the back of your mind and you push it right
:03:29. > :03:33.to the bottom. In the end it catches up with you. It is a form
:03:33. > :03:40.of denial. We have been stricken with many forms of denial over this
:03:40. > :03:44.AIDS epidemic on our continent. tried to lead a heterosexual life,
:03:45. > :03:54.you dated women. You have been married. He Dunant, coming out as a
:03:55. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :04:01.gay man in the 80s -- here you are. Did that strike you as unfair? On
:04:01. > :04:04.the one hand you had liberty, but on the other hand you are suffering
:04:04. > :04:07.the constraint of this illness. contributed to a terrible sense of
:04:07. > :04:13.Shame I felt about being HIV- positive. I thought it was because
:04:14. > :04:22.I got it as a gay men met. It was only when I worked with poor black
:04:22. > :04:25.women, women who are married to mine workers, who also spoke about
:04:25. > :04:30.that sense of Shame - I realised it had nothing to do with being gay,
:04:30. > :04:36.it had to do with the stigma that surrounds HIV generally. You talk
:04:36. > :04:40.about the stigma around HIV, there is also, of course, the stigma that
:04:40. > :04:49.is particularly attached to gay people, it game men, in particular,
:04:49. > :04:55.not only in South Africa, but in sub-Saharan Africa. We are seeing
:04:55. > :05:00.anti-homosexuality panic -- penalties, like what they are
:05:00. > :05:03.trying to impose in Uganda. What lies behind that? It is difficult
:05:03. > :05:08.with both hater of the stigma and with homosexuality, dealing with
:05:08. > :05:12.something both personal and private, which is one's sexual functioning.
:05:12. > :05:16.If I tell you I'm a gay men that, I am talking to about a very intimate
:05:16. > :05:20.part of myself - our function as a sexual human being. That is why it
:05:20. > :05:24.is hard for people to accept. That is why the more people get
:05:24. > :05:28.accustomed to the idea that sexual function lies upon a varied scale.
:05:28. > :05:36.There are people were gate everywhere. Muslims, Christians,
:05:36. > :05:41.Orthodox Jews. As more minority people, -- a small minority of
:05:41. > :05:48.people, about one in 20, both are same-sex oriented. The fact that it
:05:48. > :05:51.is doing with sex is why it is difficult. Aids, in 95% of cases,
:05:51. > :05:58.is transmitted through sex. That makes it difficult for people not
:05:58. > :06:03.to be judgmental. Even before there was her HIV/AIDS on the scene,
:06:03. > :06:06.there has been a great deal of anti-homosexuality sentiment,
:06:06. > :06:12.particularly in socially conservative Africa. Why do you
:06:12. > :06:22.think that is? What is it about the social customs, the mores? Let me
:06:22. > :06:24.
:06:24. > :06:32.put it around the other way. -- the more res. There is some evidence
:06:32. > :06:35.that same-sex customs were accepted in colonial Africa. The British
:06:35. > :06:38.exported anti-homosexuality laws to the whole Commonwealth. One problem
:06:39. > :06:42.we are seeing now is that the British Commonwealth has got a very
:06:42. > :06:48.high proportion of countries that still criminalise same-sex
:06:48. > :06:51.activities. It was one of Britain's least creditable exports. I am
:06:51. > :06:57.turning the question around a bit. It isn't just something that was
:06:57. > :07:01.brought in by the British. If you look at both Christians and Muslims,
:07:01. > :07:05.the way they articulate their anti- homosexuals sentiment, they say -
:07:05. > :07:14.look, the Bible says that marriages between a man and a woman. There
:07:14. > :07:20.should be a husband-and-wife. If you look at most laws in northern
:07:20. > :07:23.Nigeria, they actually prohibit homosexual acts. Certainly the
:07:23. > :07:29.Christian religious views were brought in by the British and the
:07:29. > :07:36.other colonists of Africa. What I am saying is, certainly religion
:07:36. > :07:42.fuels anti-Day Centre and in Africa. Unfortunately, far right-wing
:07:42. > :07:52.religious fundamentals sec tos our funding anti-gay programmes in
:07:52. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :07:58.central and southern Africa -- fundamental sect's are funding. It
:07:58. > :08:02.is much more complex than this would suggest. South Africa
:08:02. > :08:06.enshrines equality for homosexuals people in its constitution from the
:08:06. > :08:09.bill of Rights, chapter two of the constitution. The state cannot
:08:09. > :08:15.unfairly discriminate against anyone because of their sexual
:08:15. > :08:21.orientation. We see attacks in South Africa against gay people.
:08:21. > :08:30.Rapes against lesbians. They are being beaten up, subjected to gang
:08:30. > :08:34.rapes and harassment. These rights to not delivering quality, do they?
:08:34. > :08:38.What you are talking about with gay people and lesbian women in South
:08:38. > :08:42.Africa shows the limitations of constitutional promises. We have a
:08:42. > :08:45.beautiful constitution but we haven't we do our country of
:08:45. > :08:51.poverty or races them and we haven't read it of homophobia debt.
:08:51. > :08:56.I still believe that legal rights are an indispensable part of
:08:56. > :09:03.securing justice in a very divided and impoverished country like South
:09:03. > :09:08.Africa. Legal rights are important, but surely they have to be enforced.
:09:08. > :09:13.When you see that there are complaints by many people who are
:09:13. > :09:20.gay saying that "we find that the police don't provide us with the
:09:20. > :09:23.protection" there was a human Rights Watch report in December
:09:23. > :09:28.that said it was quite clear that virtually all of those interviewed
:09:28. > :09:31.who tried to report physical or sexual violence faced ridicule,
:09:31. > :09:38.harassment and secondary victimisation by police personnel.
:09:38. > :09:41.The legal rights are not, a lone, sufficient. That's right. What we
:09:41. > :09:44.need to back up the legal right is a set of institutions that value
:09:44. > :09:50.people's diversity. No-one will say that we have reached that point
:09:50. > :09:53.might yet in South Africa. That is what women report - women who get
:09:53. > :09:59.raped, report very similarly to have gay and lesbian people report.
:09:59. > :10:05.It is particularly bad in the case of gays and lesbians. How do you
:10:05. > :10:08.get to that position, where you say state institutions will be enforced
:10:08. > :10:12.and underpin what rights the constitutions should deliver? How
:10:12. > :10:18.can you get it, when clearly it is not happening? The problem with
:10:18. > :10:24.justice in our country -- the Department of Justice in our
:10:25. > :10:29.country has taken the first step, they are investigating what we call
:10:29. > :10:32.collective rape, particularly in townships. We have to get an
:10:32. > :10:36.official culture that rejects that form of discrimination and
:10:36. > :10:41.victimisation and then you have to get ordinary officials to carry it
:10:41. > :10:44.through in their daily tasks. That is a long way to go. Getting
:10:44. > :10:50.official recognition is very difficult when, for instance, you
:10:50. > :10:54.look at what the former president of neighbouring Botswana has said,
:10:54. > :10:58.which is, it is very difficult to champion the rights of gay people
:10:58. > :11:03.because it is a vote loser, it is not a vote-winner. Anybody who is
:11:03. > :11:06.in office, he has said, will not do that. If you get a former head of
:11:06. > :11:12.state doing that, you're not going to get official recognition easily,
:11:12. > :11:17.are you? To give him the highest credit, he is very sympathetic, now
:11:17. > :11:20.he is out of office. His voice is important. That is why our
:11:20. > :11:27.constitution is so important. In South Africa we have got a
:11:27. > :11:31.constitution that guarantees the right to life and the
:11:31. > :11:34.constitutional court said this was not compatible with the death
:11:34. > :11:39.penalty, although many South Africans supported the death
:11:39. > :11:44.penalty. Many South Africans support the constitution
:11:44. > :11:49.unconditionally, even though they may have reservations about gay and
:11:49. > :11:53.lesbian equality. Until losing the argument, really, justice Cameron?
:11:53. > :11:59.The continent is becoming more homophobic. The vast majority of
:11:59. > :12:07.people in Africa, something like 90%, according to polls, are
:12:07. > :12:10.opposed to homosexuality, and Gala, Nigeria, Cameroon, they are all
:12:10. > :12:15.stepping up legislation against homosexuality. Why is it getting
:12:15. > :12:19.worse? I think it is partly it again, if one goes back to
:12:19. > :12:29.Victorian England, it has always been a very good excuse to have a
:12:29. > :12:30.
:12:30. > :12:35.day baiting or reggae persecution. -- day baiting or gave persecution.
:12:35. > :12:39.The positive side of what is happening in Africa, in Malawi, in
:12:39. > :12:43.Nigeria, elsewhere in the continent, is that gays and lesbians have come
:12:43. > :12:46.out of the bottle. They are speaking out. They are making
:12:46. > :12:51.organisations. They are making themselves heard. I don't believe
:12:51. > :12:55.that the argument is being lost, I believe there are very, very brave
:12:55. > :13:00.West Africans, East Africans, Kenyans, people from Malawi, who
:13:00. > :13:06.say "this is a reality in Africa" the big problem with sexual
:13:06. > :13:10.orientation has been silence. People don't think I am gay, it is
:13:10. > :13:15.only when I say that I am gay that the phenomenon is drawn to their
:13:15. > :13:24.attention. That is what is happening in Africa. The good news
:13:24. > :13:33.is that is an unchanging blue happening. -- that is inevitably
:13:33. > :13:43.happening. Is it always good to People were built commitment here,
:13:43. > :13:49.nobody bothered about us. In heavy, speaking out has made matters worse.
:13:49. > :13:57.She has a valid point doesn't she? A valid point because right-wing
:13:57. > :14:05.fundamentalists funded the hatred and press reports in Uganda. To
:14:06. > :14:10.some extent it is a special case. I would say that speaking out his the
:14:10. > :14:16.first indispensable step to consciousness about being gay.
:14:16. > :14:21.you always know about that? He says it is difficult to talk about sex
:14:21. > :14:26.enjoy sexual orientation. Did you have to overcome a barrier? Did you
:14:26. > :14:30.feel embarrassed when you first talked about it? People find it
:14:30. > :14:35.very difficult to talk about themselves to their parents for
:14:35. > :14:41.their partners, or colleagues at work. But that is what you have to
:14:41. > :14:48.do. He will not talking about the sexual act, he were talking about
:14:48. > :14:53.yourself as asexual being, that is the embarrassing part. You are an
:14:53. > :14:59.advocate of gay rights, not only in South Africa, but in the
:14:59. > :15:06.Commonwealth wet about 40 or 50 member countries still have laws
:15:06. > :15:16.prohibiting homosexuality. Do you think that the fight is something
:15:16. > :15:19.
:15:19. > :15:24.that you can delay alone? Or do you think you need help? I think there
:15:24. > :15:31.are at enormous activists, they are courageous and out spoken
:15:31. > :15:38.throughout the world. International law supports them, international
:15:38. > :15:42.organisations are starting to support them. We spoke about a
:15:42. > :15:47.former President, he duffed Office and has come to the point where as
:15:47. > :15:55.a very respected statesman on the African continent he speaks about
:15:55. > :16:03.these issues, that shows progress. When David Cameron threatens to
:16:03. > :16:07.withhold aid from countries that want reform legislation banning
:16:07. > :16:13.homosexuality, is that some think he would like? A I have
:16:13. > :16:17.reservations about the way David Cameron did it. He should have
:16:17. > :16:24.consulted with the organisations in each country. They should have
:16:24. > :16:31.linked it to a much broader human rights agenda. While I appreciate
:16:31. > :16:37.what he did, I do not think he went about it the right way. What about
:16:37. > :16:47.the British law making gay hate a crime? What you like to see that
:16:47. > :16:48.
:16:48. > :16:51.adopted specifically? I feel not complacent, but I have a sense of
:16:51. > :16:56.optimism about people's understanding of homosexuality in
:16:56. > :17:06.all continents. We will get to the point where they will be hate wars
:17:06. > :17:09.
:17:09. > :17:15.in place to protect people in most countries. -- hate laws. Criticisms
:17:15. > :17:24.about it a strong Christian belief. They describe how my sexuality as a
:17:24. > :17:29.disease, were you comfortable? Chief Justice has committed himself
:17:29. > :17:33.to the constitution. He has committed himself to constitutional
:17:33. > :17:39.protection for everyone. I think that is important, it is not just
:17:39. > :17:48.words. It shows the strength of the legal system and legal rights and
:17:48. > :17:54.constitutionalism. The commitment is what matters. It does not
:17:54. > :17:58.buddleia that the Church he belongs to shows -- -- it does not bother
:17:58. > :18:07.you that the Church he belongs to claims that homosexuality is a
:18:07. > :18:12.disease? I am not bothered by that. Have you talked to him about this?
:18:12. > :18:16.I have never spoken to him directly. But at a very personal level I
:18:16. > :18:24.would make it clear that at a private function we have every year
:18:24. > :18:34.that I was welcomed with my partner. They appreciated that as a gesture
:18:34. > :18:36.
:18:36. > :18:42.from him. It has been said that the Chief Justice considerate his
:18:42. > :18:47.convictions from what he does in court. Can you do that? I had not
:18:47. > :18:55.asked what his convictions are, but I know that he is committed to the
:18:55. > :19:03.constitution. As a judge, I have to do that myself. You have to work to
:19:03. > :19:08.the law, I believe he would do that in most cases. Apart from
:19:08. > :19:16.criticisms about the church, there are concerns that the independence
:19:16. > :19:25.of the judiciary is under assault from the executive? In any
:19:25. > :19:29.democratic society is is always an uncomfortable fit and you have a
:19:29. > :19:38.strong-minded judiciary saying these are the legal limits of your
:19:38. > :19:43.Africa has done that. It leads to discomfort. I think that concerns
:19:43. > :19:47.always have to be taken seriously. I do not think the debate in South
:19:47. > :19:56.Africa it is fundamentally different to what is happening in
:19:56. > :20:03.the United States or the UK. Make you look at an anti-apartheid
:20:03. > :20:09.activists, she says the decisions of the constitutional court can be
:20:09. > :20:15.subject to government review. The government can assess what you do.
:20:15. > :20:21.That sounds like an assault on your independence. A governor announced
:20:21. > :20:26.there would be an assessment of the constitutional court assessments.
:20:26. > :20:34.From a mine. A cute as a court judge, I would be delighted to have
:20:34. > :20:39.Arab decisions assessed. They would be anti-corruption. The more the
:20:39. > :20:42.public knows about what the court is doing to secure work justice and
:20:42. > :20:50.social justice, it will be better for the courts. I would welcome
:20:50. > :20:58.that. That is the state assessing itself? The state assessing the
:20:59. > :21:04.judiciary, the judiciary is not above the law. He should be
:21:04. > :21:08.independent minded, the effect of the matter is the Attorney General
:21:08. > :21:17.Act's according to the public interest in his view. Not on behalf
:21:17. > :21:24.of the government. In upholding the public interest he will act as to
:21:24. > :21:28.what he determines his best, not on behalf of the Government. We have a
:21:28. > :21:32.different and more complex situation. We have a strong civil
:21:32. > :21:38.society sector. We have a strong legal profession and strong-minded
:21:38. > :21:48.judges. All of those go into a mixed to give a strong voice in
:21:48. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:54.defence of the judiciary. Want the strong media be under review? It
:21:54. > :21:58.will be a crime to leak all possess or publish information judged as
:21:58. > :22:03.classified by the Government. Journalists and whistle-blowers
:22:03. > :22:13.could face up to 25 years in jail if convicted. There has been a
:22:13. > :22:13.
:22:13. > :22:18.storm of that war. It will come to the constitutional law. We will
:22:18. > :22:22.have all the Lord -- all the information given to us by the
:22:22. > :22:29.government and the public. We will have to determine whether the
:22:29. > :22:34.government's concerns are justified. There will also consider the
:22:34. > :22:39.public's concerns. We have had a constitutional court for 18 years.
:22:39. > :22:46.It has functioned well. A lot of the public will want to see what
:22:46. > :22:51.the outcome is. A judge's key role is to uphold the public interest.
:22:51. > :23:01.In this built there is no public interest defence clause is there?
:23:01. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:08.The government's answer to that is one that we will have been caught.
:23:08. > :23:16.-- Court. I will become better informed through the judging. We
:23:16. > :23:21.will have information on that aspect. The outgoing Chief Justice
:23:21. > :23:23.said we need to hit more from judges, not just out going once. He
:23:24. > :23:30.said there is no-one better too dependent than the judges
:23:30. > :23:34.themselves. You have been outspoken on gay rights, should you beat as
:23:34. > :23:41.outspoken and such concerns when people believed the judiciary is a
:23:41. > :23:48.threat? To be truthful, to step back, sitting as a judge in South
:23:48. > :23:53.Africa I do not think that we are under greater threat. I think there