:00:08. > :00:11.words. I drove away and slept in my Gene Sharp is a political thinker
:00:11. > :00:16.whose influence is now spoken of in the same breath as Mahatma Gandhi
:00:16. > :00:18.and Martin Luther King. But he is no platform speaker or figurehead
:00:19. > :00:22.at a demonstration. Rather, a quietly-spoken political
:00:22. > :00:27.philosopher who has been writing about non violent struggles for 50
:00:27. > :00:34.years. What has changed is that his most celebrated pamphlet is now
:00:34. > :00:40.grabbing attention around the world. He has been hailed as having helped
:00:40. > :00:50.mount protest movements from Burma to Serbia to Egypt. What is it that
:00:50. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:24.Welcome. Thank you. You have been described as the man who changed
:01:24. > :01:29.the world. Do you recognise that description? I have not heard it
:01:30. > :01:36.exactly like that. From your local newspaper. They exaggerated just a
:01:36. > :01:41.bit. You do not think you have had that level of influence? There has
:01:41. > :01:48.been some influence from my writings. It is hard to judge. For
:01:48. > :01:56.myself to do the judging. It should be judged a few years ahead. Your
:01:56. > :02:05.most celebrated pamphlet has been translated into dozens of languages.
:02:05. > :02:09.34. Tell me the jesters of it. Where did it come from? I have been
:02:09. > :02:14.meeting with some of the Burmese democrats. Occasionally inside
:02:14. > :02:24.Burma illegally. Occasionally in Thailand or elsewhere in the US
:02:24. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:37.perhaps. This was back in the early 90s? Yes. One of the men was a
:02:37. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:47.Burmese Democrat in exile. He was editing a new journal. In English.
:02:47. > :02:51.He asked me to write for it. He gave me free rein. The problem was
:02:51. > :03:00.I did not know Burma in debt. I had been steady dictatorships for
:03:00. > :03:09.decades. I had many trips and rough grass and notes. And other things.
:03:09. > :03:16.-- manuscripts. We had money at that time. I could have eight full-
:03:16. > :03:23.time assistant. We worked for four months. We put a draft together.
:03:23. > :03:30.That was what was published. It was published in Bangkok, not in the US.
:03:30. > :03:39.I thought that was it. We have it translated into other languages
:03:39. > :03:44.beside Vermes. I thought that was it. -- Burmese. It became a path
:03:44. > :03:49.that there was used and translated across. It has been a part of major
:03:49. > :03:54.ch chhas been translated into Ukrainian, Serbian, Chinese
:03:54. > :04:01.and Arabic. It has plotted his way through the mayor changes for the
:04:01. > :04:11.last 20 or so years. How that happened, I do not know. Let's try
:04:11. > :04:12.
:04:12. > :04:18.an pick it may have happened. have a pushed for the struggle of
:04:18. > :04:26.nine violence. -- non violence. You said it was a pragmatic choice, not
:04:26. > :04:36.an ethical one. People get confused. They used to
:04:36. > :04:46.
:04:46. > :04:54.tie it up with pass a prison. -- pacificism. It is not something
:04:54. > :05:01.that arise from ethical or religious points. It has been going
:05:01. > :05:05.on from way back to the beginning of time. It is about being stubborn.
:05:05. > :05:12.You also make the point that violence is something which plays
:05:12. > :05:17.into the hands of the strong, of dictators. Yes. It is a counter
:05:17. > :05:23.revolutionary weapon. Have to destroy the revolution. The
:05:23. > :05:31.political police also put agents into resistance movements. They
:05:31. > :05:39.chided for us the resisters to use violence. Regimes always have the
:05:39. > :05:42.great capacity for violence. You should do something they would have
:05:42. > :05:49.greater difficulty in cancer reacting. It will give you a
:05:49. > :05:55.greater chance to succeed. Other amendments when non-violence cannot
:05:55. > :06:02.stop acts which would be enormously destructive? When you think about
:06:02. > :06:08.sippets acts of mass of violence from a dictatorship or in Nazi
:06:08. > :06:13.Germany or will wonder? Is there times when violence has to be
:06:14. > :06:21.justified? It does not mean violence works easily or
:06:21. > :06:25.effectively. Non-violence was used against the Nazis. In Berlin in
:06:25. > :06:32.1943, women married to Jews demonstrated on the streets of
:06:32. > :06:42.Berlin. Jewish husbands had already been sent to concentration camps
:06:42. > :06:43.
:06:43. > :06:48.and gas chambers. Teachers in Norway under a fastest government
:06:48. > :06:51.defeat in a plan for the state. People do not know its history.
:06:51. > :06:58.That was never going to be a sufficient means in battling
:06:58. > :07:03.against the regime. When the Nazis came into control in Berlin, they
:07:03. > :07:07.were frightened of a general strike. Of a non-violent methods. You're
:07:07. > :07:14.saying non violence can always be used but it has to be used quickly
:07:14. > :07:22.and effectively enough. It will not always be as effective if it is not
:07:22. > :07:31.planned orbit said it or people are to leave. -- not plans and people
:07:31. > :07:38.are timid. It is not going to work. Let's explore how it might work.
:07:38. > :07:42.You lose in your book, 198 methods of non-violence. Some of the most
:07:42. > :07:51.familiar things such as protest letters and meetings. There are
:07:51. > :07:59.others which might seem slightly more... things like singing,
:07:59. > :08:05.forging officials. You talk about non-violent aerates. I am wondering
:08:05. > :08:09.if there is a danger in these things. -- air raids. They do not
:08:09. > :08:18.come here into something that will shake a dictatorship in themselves.
:08:18. > :08:23.That is accurate. That is why you have to have a grand as --
:08:23. > :08:26.strategies. They have to fit together and can she be to
:08:26. > :08:33.weakening their regime and in harrowing the population. If you do
:08:33. > :08:40.not have that. The Met it will have nil effect. They can also be
:08:40. > :08:46.enormously risky. For those who are taking the steps. Of course. Any
:08:46. > :08:56.defiance of a dictatorship is risky. They were not like it. How far do
:08:56. > :08:56.
:08:56. > :09:04.you feel that you have a personal responsibility? You mention in your
:09:04. > :09:14.baulk that as recently in 2005, the possession of the book could land
:09:14. > :09:18.
:09:18. > :09:26.people in jail for seven years. -- you mentioned in your will cut.
:09:26. > :09:35.has happened. How did it make you feel? Proud that it affected them
:09:35. > :09:40.that way. It could land the ball in personal trouble. They are already
:09:40. > :09:49.in Purcell's troubled by living within that regime. -- personal
:09:49. > :09:56.trouble. You mentioned the importance of planning, strategy
:09:56. > :10:00.and co-operating with others. In a country like North Korea, which is
:10:00. > :10:03.one of the most locked down and repressive countries on earth,
:10:03. > :10:09.where it is incredibly difficult for people to get together outside
:10:09. > :10:13.family units in a way and is not sanctioned by the state. How could
:10:13. > :10:21.he possibly that outbuilding these sorts of links and co-operation
:10:21. > :10:26.which is essential? I do not know. It is a tough case. Even the family
:10:26. > :10:34.unit is not saved because summer the members of the family may be
:10:34. > :10:38.informers to the regime. The same thing in Nazi Germany. The regimes
:10:38. > :10:46.do not like us. That is why they are so frightened about the spread
:10:46. > :10:53.of these ideas. People have demonstrated the power. Let's look
:10:53. > :10:57.at a country where there has been changed but they were as actively
:10:57. > :11:03.in knows civil society, governments organisations which you say is
:11:03. > :11:10.essential. Libya. Four decades there were very few institutions
:11:10. > :11:15.that did not bear the mark of Gaddafi. It did work. It will
:11:15. > :11:25.manage to overthrow the dictatorship. No, no. It started
:11:25. > :11:32.off that way. Very quickly there was a general who supposedly
:11:32. > :11:38.defective. He brought his soldiers and the guns to the resisters. He
:11:38. > :11:45.said, here, I join the revolution. Two weeks before that happened.
:11:45. > :11:51.Gaddafi and one of his sons predicted a civil war. Shortly
:11:51. > :11:58.after that General defected, he was killed in a rebel camp. My
:11:58. > :12:07.suspicion is he was an higher ranking for what better. He forced
:12:08. > :12:16.the resisters into violence. That general was killed in a rebel camp,
:12:16. > :12:22.very suspicious. They caught in the French and the Americans and a NATO.
:12:22. > :12:28.It was not a people struggle in the end. There was violence. There was
:12:28. > :12:34.internal conflict. But ultimately Gaddafi was deposed. It does not
:12:34. > :12:41.seem to fit into your model. does not. Yet it was effective in a
:12:41. > :12:51.certain way. In a certain way it ended the Gaddafi regime of. It did
:12:51. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:06.It is a bit early to judge, isn't it? The people and not continuing
:13:06. > :13:16.to demonstrate as needed, as in Egypt. But be asked about the way
:13:16. > :13:19.
:13:19. > :13:25.you do find dictatorship. -- let me ask about the way you defined
:13:25. > :13:30.dictatorship. Those who a press the vast majority. We can recognise
:13:30. > :13:35.models throughout history and around the world today. What about
:13:35. > :13:40.those dictators to do have considerable popular support? Nazi
:13:40. > :13:50.Germany, where Hitler did profit from the demonisation of minorities
:13:50. > :13:57.
:13:57. > :14:03.and got a large, that majority, support. The same way you deny
:14:03. > :14:09.legitimacy and it is tough for knows situations. You start small.
:14:09. > :14:15.You continue to expand. This was done by the women in Berlin who
:14:15. > :14:23.were married to German husbands. -- Jewish husbands. It was done in
:14:23. > :14:32.Norway, we are used to live, against the fascist regime. --
:14:32. > :14:39.where I. In many countries, you often hear this in the Middle East.
:14:39. > :14:45.There was a sense from a lot of people that we may want democracy
:14:45. > :14:49.but we also liked the idea of a strong man in charge. Otherwise
:14:49. > :14:57.there will be internal conflict, civil war, competing tribes might
:14:57. > :15:05.come up against each other. It is not necessarily all or nothing.
:15:05. > :15:12.People have many views. Some people conclude this regime is not
:15:12. > :15:22.something that will bring us satisfaction and a good life. They
:15:22. > :15:34.
:15:34. > :15:38.joined together. There is no call Key cookie cutter. We have a guide.
:15:38. > :15:43.It's a guide to how people can study to plan their own strategies.
:15:43. > :15:49.Differing situations, differing circumstances. When you say that,
:15:49. > :15:59.do you accept Chaunac different degrees of authoritarianism? Oh, of
:15:59. > :16:06.
:16:06. > :16:13.course. There was the Nazi system and the Stalin's -- Stalin system.
:16:13. > :16:20.I have Sharp's Dictionary of Power and Struggle. Almost 900 terms and
:16:20. > :16:28.definitions. You have to have clear thinking and not make sweeping
:16:28. > :16:35.generalisations. You have to communicate it very precisely.
:16:35. > :16:41.know in the short pamphlet, you have had to, in a way, generalise
:16:41. > :16:47.to make it concise. Is that perhaps part of the weakness of the
:16:47. > :16:53.arguments in the book? You were very dismissive about the dangers
:16:53. > :16:58.of negotiation. Yes. Is there no place for negotiation with a
:16:58. > :17:07.dictatorship? When the regime has fallen apart, the dictator wants to
:17:07. > :17:12.go to the airport. To be tricked into bargaining, you do not want
:17:12. > :17:16.half of that dictatorship to survive. But what about a
:17:16. > :17:26.dictatorship that can see itself going, negotiating itself out of
:17:26. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:32.existence? Give me an example. order to ensure that it cannot be
:17:32. > :17:41.run out of the country or round-up in the ICC. Dictators to not
:17:41. > :17:46.negotiate themselves art of power. There is no example? Not that kind.
:17:46. > :17:51.If it is all or nothing, when it comes to the situation in Egypt,
:17:51. > :17:58.there, a lot of people are unhappy about the influence that the army
:17:58. > :18:06.still has. Yes. In that case, people should have, for example,
:18:06. > :18:16.boycotted the recent elections? There was a major mistake made by
:18:16. > :18:16.
:18:16. > :18:26.the opposition. They negotiated with the regime. Hosni Mubarak had
:18:26. > :18:33.to resign. He said he would resign if the military were put into
:18:33. > :18:40.control. The same military that had supported him for decades. That is
:18:40. > :18:48.how he and his regime came into power in the first place. They
:18:48. > :18:54.agreed to turn power over to the military and the military are very
:18:54. > :19:04.reluctant to step out of the picture complete be. So you see
:19:04. > :19:09.
:19:09. > :19:14.Egypt as a missed opportunity? first half has been done. They put
:19:14. > :19:24.the current situation in place and they still have that problem now.
:19:24. > :19:24.
:19:24. > :19:34.What about the place where we began, burner? -- Burma? A democratic
:19:34. > :19:36.
:19:36. > :19:40.deep-freeze. But there have been some seismic shifts in terms of
:19:40. > :19:47.moves towards liberalisation. Is it a mistake for Aung San Suu Kyi to
:19:47. > :19:56.be talking to the Government as she is? No. Does that not run counter
:19:56. > :20:03.to what you're saying about negotiation? About going to the
:20:03. > :20:11.airport. That would be the ideal situation. She has said there is
:20:11. > :20:19.flexibility. That regime has been under great internal pressure for
:20:19. > :20:28.decades, also internationally. There are, as has been said, cracks
:20:28. > :20:34.in the monolith. Briefly, in terms of outside pressure, as far as that
:20:34. > :20:38.country is concerned, is now the time perhaps for the international
:20:38. > :20:42.community to ease sanctions and order to encourage those apparently
:20:42. > :20:46.reformist parts of the government or is it time still to keep the
:20:46. > :20:52.pressure on with very tight sanctions? I would suspect it is
:20:52. > :20:59.time to keep the pressure on. I did not know the situation in any great
:20:59. > :21:06.depth or detail. I'm very reluctant about giving advice. You have been
:21:06. > :21:14.very modest all the way through about claiming any credit or the
:21:14. > :21:20.role your book has had on all these revolutions. Nonetheless, it has
:21:20. > :21:26.tapped a vein. Why do you think it is now that people are paying
:21:26. > :21:36.attention? Some people started paying attention quite a while ago.
:21:36. > :21:48.
:21:48. > :21:57.In Serbia, for example, when this was published in Serbian. Do -- the
:21:57. > :22:04.youth got copies of my book. It was published in 1973 and a developed a
:22:04. > :22:11.strategy for about struggle. It has developed beyond that. Do you see a
:22:11. > :22:17.movement towards more non-violent struggle at the moment? A
:22:18. > :22:27.historical upsurge in revolution? Absolutely. Why? Because it is
:22:28. > :22:29.
:22:29. > :22:36.happening. When Poland started, when there was the resistance in
:22:36. > :22:46.Czechoslovakia, these cases are multiplying. Estonia, Latvia and
:22:46. > :22:52.
:22:52. > :22:55.Lithuania, where we did have to the British influence. -- deliberate.
:22:56. > :22:59.Is this just a perpetual struggle that we are seeing between those
:22:59. > :23:04.few who want to keep power for themselves and the masses who want
:23:04. > :23:10.greater freedom, greater dignity or is there any chance that we are
:23:10. > :23:20.going to sort of punched through to win new era where the majority will
:23:20. > :23:23.
:23:23. > :23:30.give free lives? -- punch. -- live. These troubles, which there will be
:23:30. > :23:35.many more of, are happening. They are not symbolic. They're changing
:23:35. > :23:40.the political systems of these countries. Not perfectly. There are
:23:40. > :23:44.still problems to be confronted and solved but it is happening and each
:23:44. > :23:49.time it happens, it gives the message to people in other parts of