:00:13. > :00:19.nature of his condition is unknown. South Sudan became independent last
:00:19. > :00:25.July after a five decade wore leggings to the north in what was
:00:25. > :00:32.Africa's longest-running civil war. But secession has not brought peace
:00:32. > :00:40.for stability. Hostility between it and is more than it may go Lizzie
:00:40. > :00:46.to teetering on the run of war and ethnic clashes. My guest is the UN
:00:46. > :00:56.head of mission for South Sudan. If the country effectively already a
:00:56. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:31.scale state? -- failed state. How far are the country's problems
:01:31. > :01:41.the issue of secession ques mac Souster dining is fear world's
:01:41. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:03.youngest nation. This is the world's and his nation. There are
:02:03. > :02:09.five lost decades. Health, in the structure. Government institutions
:02:09. > :02:12.were recently established. Clearly, there will be huge challenges. If
:02:12. > :02:15.you look at the fact they signed the agreement and the CBA in
:02:15. > :02:17.January 2005, it means they have effectively, the ruling party, they
:02:17. > :02:27.have been effectively governing South Sudan as an autonomous state
:02:27. > :02:32.
:02:32. > :02:42.for six years. That is really big birthright and you cannot see any
:02:42. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:48.evidence of that money in the country. That aid money has never
:02:48. > :02:58.gone to government coffers. It is the equivalent of other countries
:02:58. > :03:01.
:03:01. > :03:11.in the world. It is catching up for all these five decades of loss.
:03:11. > :03:15.Most of that is from oil revenue. Sure. That is a lot of money. It is
:03:16. > :03:25.around $2 million a year. You know perfectly well that you cannot see
:03:26. > :03:28.
:03:28. > :03:34.the evidence that South Sudan have have had. What about the rest of
:03:34. > :03:44.the country, not just in Juba. number of children in school has
:03:44. > :03:44.
:03:44. > :03:48.doubled. We have seen measles and polio. There have been campaigns
:03:48. > :03:58.and they have been successful. We have seen 6,000 kilometres of road
:03:58. > :04:05.
:04:05. > :04:15.de constructed. 100 metres of proper paved roads. It shows the
:04:15. > :04:16.
:04:16. > :04:26.challenges. You gave me the figures. You say 10% of children in South
:04:26. > :04:31.Sudan complete primary education. The vast majority of adults there
:04:31. > :04:38.are not literate. Why do you think this is happening? Give me your
:04:38. > :04:41.view. There is no doubt that building an education system,
:04:41. > :04:44.making sure our whole country becomes literate, making sure that
:04:44. > :04:54.health systems are available in a country of this size, the size of
:04:54. > :04:56.
:04:56. > :04:59.France, where nothing was there before, it is a huge challenge. We
:04:59. > :05:06.could have seen more things happening in the last six years but
:05:06. > :05:10.we have seen quite a lot happening. Much more needs to happen now. Now
:05:10. > :05:13.is where the test really comes for the government. Now is where they
:05:14. > :05:22.need to show they are running their own country and they are able to
:05:22. > :05:26.bring services to their own people. The resources have to go to them.
:05:26. > :05:36.Can you tell me - is it because of corruption, where 70% of South
:05:36. > :05:40.
:05:40. > :05:49.Sudan's budget goes to pays. Corruption - whether it takes the
:05:49. > :05:55.form of bribes, officials taking cuts from deals. It is the people
:05:55. > :05:59.of South Sudan who take the price. Corruption is a problem, absolutely.
:05:59. > :06:02.I can give you a good reason why. We have a situation where I don't
:06:02. > :06:11.think anyone has experienced going from a guerrilla movement without a
:06:11. > :06:20.system - no commercial bank to speak of. It is clear that this
:06:20. > :06:23.leads to corruption. We are also seeing a situation where the
:06:23. > :06:30.government is now taking measures to deal with that and to rule out
:06:30. > :06:32.corruption. Is it really? That is not what the people of South Sudan
:06:33. > :06:38.are saying. Very important decisions have been taken in the
:06:38. > :06:45.last few months. South Sudan has decided and are committed to join
:06:45. > :06:47.the industry's initiative. This is an initiative that is related to
:06:48. > :06:53.countries that really wanted their natural resources to be used for
:06:53. > :06:58.the benefit of the people with transparence and accountability.
:06:58. > :07:04.They want to do that. The President has come with two decrees which
:07:04. > :07:08.shows he is committed to moving this agenda forward. Very tough
:07:08. > :07:12.decisions are coming down the pipeline. We have to see them
:07:12. > :07:15.implemented in full but there are strong signals coming. People say
:07:15. > :07:17.there is an anti-corruption commission and we hear the
:07:17. > :07:27.President saying this, but really, nothing much is really done to
:07:27. > :07:30.
:07:30. > :07:37.tackle the problem. We need to see stronger action and that is why the
:07:37. > :07:43.actions we are now witnessing... you tell him yourself when you see
:07:44. > :07:51.him? Absolutely. It is actions you need to see. What questions has he
:07:51. > :07:57.taken? There are two presidential decrees. All public officials are
:07:58. > :08:01.prohibited from doing business alongside government officials.
:08:01. > :08:06.Being active in business while you are in government will lead to your
:08:06. > :08:16.resignation. We have been investigating one of the biggest
:08:16. > :08:17.
:08:17. > :08:25.scandals that have been happening. A third measure is that John has
:08:25. > :08:30.become an adviser to the President. He is the anti-corruption adviser
:08:30. > :08:39.from Kenya. He is committed to help the government get their affairs in
:08:39. > :08:45.order in this area and other areas. When we go to implement all this,
:08:45. > :08:48.you are giving him the benefit of the doubt. Do you think he will do
:08:48. > :08:58.this? A number of other countries that are oil-producing have gone
:08:58. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:05.the route of corruption. We have seen problems in Nigeria etc. This
:09:05. > :09:11.is a critical position that has to be made. Do they want to go in the
:09:11. > :09:17.way of Botswana or do they go the other road? They want to go the
:09:18. > :09:27.route of Botswana. We need to see it happen and that is a concrete
:09:27. > :09:31.actions. You know what people say about him - an army man. He had all
:09:31. > :09:33.these men under his command. 800 generals in the South Sudanese army,
:09:33. > :09:43.some of them with personal bodyguards running into the
:09:43. > :09:46.
:09:46. > :09:51.hundreds. You have seen them. The four by fours. Rows of them. You
:09:51. > :10:00.have people a few yards away, people living in basic conditions.
:10:00. > :10:06.Do you think they will sack those 800 generals. They presidential
:10:06. > :10:10.decree is clear. We need to see that it is followed up. It will be
:10:10. > :10:13.up to the President to show that he means business. If you want to
:10:13. > :10:23.challenge the President more, maybe he can be your next guest on
:10:23. > :10:29.HARDtalk. What about the list of the 13 most corrupt officials. Is
:10:29. > :10:34.he going to release a list? I am not familiar he has that list. I do
:10:34. > :10:39.not know anybody who has it. Most of the ministers in the government
:10:39. > :10:44.and in the Obama administration knows them. Clearly we need to see
:10:44. > :10:49.much more action in this area. Have you given him a time frame?
:10:49. > :10:53.have to do this by such-and-such a time? I do not think he needs a
:10:53. > :11:00.time frame and it is not within my mandate to have time frames of
:11:00. > :11:02.action in this area. I'd think we will see action going forward. If
:11:02. > :11:08.not, there is going to be a significant reaction amongst
:11:08. > :11:11.international loaners and amongst international stakeholders. We all
:11:11. > :11:21.expect much from this government and we want them to deliver on this
:11:21. > :11:22.
:11:22. > :11:25.issue and deliver services to their people. They have been suffering
:11:25. > :11:28.for far too long. They have not been given health, education,
:11:28. > :11:31.seeing their livelihoods improve. That is the difference they need to
:11:31. > :11:33.make. There are other criticisms of him - authoritarianism, restricted
:11:33. > :11:43.freedoms, stories of journalists having been detained because they
:11:43. > :11:44.
:11:44. > :11:51.have carried stories about the wedding of his daughter and so on.
:11:51. > :11:55.That kind of impression is not a good one to convey. I do not know
:11:55. > :11:58.whether you follow South Sudanese media every day. I read the papers
:11:58. > :12:03.every day. They contain a lot of discussion and debate and a lot of
:12:04. > :12:06.criticism of government officials, the president and others. Yes,
:12:06. > :12:11.there has been extremely unfortunate incidents like this and
:12:11. > :12:13.that should not happen. However we are seeing, in the last few months
:12:13. > :12:23.after independence, positive signs of political inclusiveness, a
:12:23. > :12:28.willingness to include other parties in consultations. The
:12:29. > :12:31.Political Parties Act has gone to Cabinet. We are seeing a
:12:31. > :12:41.willingness to open up and ensure presentation by the political
:12:41. > :12:42.
:12:42. > :12:45.stakeholders. We are not there yet. This is a six-month start and we
:12:46. > :12:55.need to see a democratic process that leads to what we really see as
:12:55. > :12:59.a full-fledged democracy. We were talking about oil and it could be a
:12:59. > :13:02.curse or a blessing for South Sudan and you wanted to go the way of
:13:02. > :13:07.Botswana, not Nigeria. South Sudan has enough oil to provide each of
:13:07. > :13:10.its 9 million people with $1,000 each year. Now it has suspended its
:13:10. > :13:13.oil production because of this di dias with the North about
:13:13. > :13:15.the amount of transit fees that they should receive from them for
:13:15. > :13:25.the oil that goes to the infrastructure, the pipelines and
:13:25. > :13:37.
:13:37. > :13:42.the ports in the north. Was that a My reading woes that that position
:13:42. > :13:50.was not taken in response to that. It was in reaction to what they
:13:50. > :13:55.regard as the confiscation of order by the government. Bases at that
:13:55. > :14:05.oil because they said it was not receiving the chance typifies. They
:14:05. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:19.wanted it edited dollars and barrel. -- their teacher dollars.
:14:19. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:30.They think they should be paid by the standard. This happened in the
:14:30. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:41.middle of the negotiations between the two countries. Unfortunately, I
:14:41. > :14:51.do not deal with the issues. The South Sudan reaction was against
:14:51. > :14:56.
:14:57. > :15:06.that... The reaction, they had been exporting many hours a day, was is
:15:06. > :15:10.a wide bargaining mood for deep south Sudanese government to do?
:15:10. > :15:14.This has been described as a suicidal step for the government.
:15:14. > :15:24.We are going to see a situation where this will have a significant
:15:24. > :15:24.
:15:24. > :15:30.impact. The dependence on revenue from oil is huge. Over 90%. 98% of
:15:30. > :15:40.the budget is some oil. We are likely to see two things happen.
:15:40. > :15:41.
:15:41. > :15:48.Salaries will be affected. The public servants and officials who
:15:48. > :15:55.received those salaries will be affected. Many services are still
:15:55. > :16:05.being delivered from international aid agencies. The salaries of
:16:05. > :16:06.
:16:06. > :16:08.nurses and teachers will be impact it. That is alarming. Said John
:16:08. > :16:15.Holmes says it is extremely worrying because the army will not
:16:15. > :16:25.be paid. There is azer mac the government will only have two or
:16:25. > :16:25.
:16:26. > :16:32.three months of cash reserves. -- there is an estimate. The army
:16:32. > :16:40.needs to be right sized. It needs to go through a process of perverse
:16:40. > :16:43.ionisation and demobilisation. -- professionalisation. John Holmes
:16:43. > :16:49.says he south Sudanese government will have to live with the
:16:49. > :16:54.consequences of their actions. He is worried. Are you worried that
:16:54. > :17:00.they will not be able to pay the salaries? It is worrying a lot of
:17:00. > :17:07.international stakeholders. You are worried? Absolutely. What are you
:17:07. > :17:17.worried about? What could happen? The main worry is going to be wet
:17:17. > :17:20.or there will be a consequences due to the lack of salaries. Sudanese
:17:20. > :17:30.officials say they will not have any significant risk on their part
:17:30. > :17:33.
:17:33. > :17:43.because they say many are -- I used to not having salaries from the
:17:43. > :17:49.
:17:49. > :17:54.four. We know what was until soldiers can do. That is a concern.
:17:54. > :18:00.We are in a situation where this has to be managed in a very careful
:18:00. > :18:03.manner. The austerity budget being appraised needs to be managed in a
:18:03. > :18:12.very careful manner so we do not see adverse impacts on the
:18:12. > :18:19.population at large. The US ambassador is very worried they may
:18:19. > :18:27.go over the brink. They may have to pay a price that may hurt the
:18:27. > :18:31.people of Sudan. It could take them a long time to get the oil back on
:18:31. > :18:41.track from when they want to start production again. Can the
:18:41. > :18:43.
:18:43. > :18:47.international community of Ford or South Sudan to do this? I have not
:18:47. > :18:52.heard anything from the international community in terms of
:18:52. > :19:00.compensating the loss. They have to manage these on their own. They
:19:00. > :19:07.must protect the most vulnerable people. The most significant area
:19:07. > :19:14.of concern is food imports. We need to avoid the impact of a potential
:19:14. > :19:24.food deficit. The international community... The consequences of
:19:24. > :19:24.
:19:24. > :19:29.these actions can be dire. Potentially, yes. There is also an
:19:29. > :19:39.opportunity to try and straighten up some of the areas which have
:19:39. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:49.we -- have not been how we want it to
:19:49. > :19:50.
:19:50. > :19:56.be. You have a possibility to utilise this. The significant
:19:56. > :20:03.concern related to the potential impact remains. At the core of this
:20:03. > :20:08.is the dispute between the north and the south. The President said
:20:08. > :20:16.the two countries are closer to war and peace. Are you worried about
:20:16. > :20:25.fresh hostilities breaking out between the two countries? 999 of
:20:25. > :20:33.the two party is have any interest in reigniting the war which took
:20:33. > :20:38.decades to end. It is just talk, you think? Empty words? I cannot
:20:38. > :20:44.say that. Fundamentally, it is my hope that both parties will
:20:44. > :20:54.overcome this crisis and gets to a agreement on the issues. It is not
:20:54. > :21:01.
:21:01. > :21:07.my mandate. One part of your mandate is about the domination of
:21:07. > :21:11.a sector of the population of Sudan. They have 41% of the ministries in
:21:11. > :21:21.the government. It feeds into the ethnic rivalries that have existed
:21:21. > :21:26.
:21:26. > :21:33.for many years. We have seen the terrible violence. Why is this
:21:33. > :21:39.mission and able to help stop the ethnic violence? We took decisive
:21:39. > :21:43.action when we saw the mobilisation. We did it three things: We sounded
:21:43. > :21:49.the alarm with the government and asked them to mobilise as much
:21:49. > :21:57.forces as possible and deploy them. We mobilised half of our combat
:21:57. > :22:04.ready for us. Eight out of 15 companies, to respond to the crisis.
:22:04. > :22:10.A mandate for 7,000 troops but only half are deployed? It is
:22:10. > :22:14.complicated. The combat ready forces are not the 7,000. The
:22:14. > :22:24.peacekeeping illusion is the numbers we have... How many he
:22:24. > :22:35.
:22:35. > :22:40.have? -- do you have? It is not enough. We had the second measure
:22:41. > :22:50.we took. We gave early warning civilians said they can get out of
:22:51. > :22:55.
:22:55. > :23:01.harm's way. A UN coordinated or told people to have the league
:23:01. > :23:05.because they might be attack. Is that the role of the UN? No-one in
:23:05. > :23:11.the UN told people to leave it for their lives. We share information
:23:11. > :23:21.with local authorities. They took the decision, they sounded the
:23:21. > :23:22.
:23:22. > :23:32.warning. A local administrator went to the UN and said, we need
:23:32. > :23:33.
:23:33. > :23:37.protection. He said the UN failed us. If this was true... It is true.
:23:37. > :23:47.It is not true. We have investigated this incident and
:23:47. > :23:49.
:23:49. > :23:52.others. They are not true. What -- are the people relocated, we went
:23:52. > :23:57.from hut to hut to look for those who could not take care of
:23:57. > :24:04.themselves and we evacuated them. You are protecting people? We are.
:24:04. > :24:11.We put a defensive position up where people could hide behind the
:24:11. > :24:16.protective defence positions. Secondly, the SPLA opened fire on
:24:16. > :24:21.the attackers. They moved out. If we had not done this, we would have