:00:14. > :00:17.What's the key to world-class sporting performance? Top coaches
:00:17. > :00:23.will tell you the biggest prizes don't necessarily go to the best
:00:23. > :00:28.natural athletes but to those best prepared. Science, technology and
:00:28. > :00:30.psychology - all are used to gain a competitive edge. My guest today is
:00:31. > :00:33.Sir Clive Woodward, coach of England's World Cup-winning rugby
:00:33. > :00:43.team in 2003, and now performance director for the British Olympic
:00:43. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:17.Team preparing for London 2012. Are Sir Clive Woodward, welcome to
:01:17. > :01:22.HARDtalk. Thank you. You are in the hot seat this year - Director of
:01:23. > :01:26.sport for the GB team. Are you beginning to feel the pressure?
:01:26. > :01:36.just excitement. We are bringing the team together
:01:36. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:48.and looking forward to what will be As Director of Sport, you know you
:01:48. > :01:54.will be judged on results. In this case it is going to be top, because
:01:54. > :02:00.in Beijing the British team did so well. 19 gold medals. It is going
:02:00. > :02:06.to be tough to top that. Beijing was a fantastic games.
:02:06. > :02:10.Seeing what happened in China, the team performed fantastically well.
:02:10. > :02:16.You have to look at the 19 gold medals. Eight of them came from
:02:16. > :02:26.cycling. We came up well. We pushed the Australians down the medal
:02:26. > :02:30.
:02:30. > :02:38.table. We have confidence of doing well on the medal table. More gold
:02:38. > :02:43.medals from all sports. If we can get a similar mix of medals in more
:02:43. > :02:53.sports, that will surely be great progression. Sport in this country
:02:53. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :02:57.is going very well. I want to talk about it. You have been involved in
:02:57. > :03:00.many different sports. Before we get there, let us stick with the
:03:00. > :03:06.Olympics. You have a grand title, director of sport. Does it concern
:03:06. > :03:09.you that you are not directly coaching any of the top athletes?
:03:09. > :03:19.My job is to ensure when the athletes arrive, because the 26
:03:19. > :03:23.
:03:23. > :03:33.sports operate independently. It is my job to make sure when all these
:03:33. > :03:37.
:03:37. > :03:44.athletes arrive, it is seamless. It's like their normal preparation.
:03:44. > :03:51.I am very clear that I am there for A lot of it is creating the right
:03:51. > :03:56.mentality. Diverse disciplines and diverse sets of athletes. You made
:03:56. > :04:06.a great play of discipline. You say you want a set of rules for the
:04:06. > :04:14.
:04:14. > :04:24.team to adhere to. It seems almost Not at all. This is done with
:04:24. > :04:27.complete consultation with all the athletes. We spoke to the
:04:27. > :04:31.successful ones. You want to know how the rest of your team-mates are
:04:31. > :04:34.going to operate. I say with the rugby team, how do you want to be
:04:34. > :04:38.remembered? I cannot think of anything worse than you put on
:04:38. > :04:41.something that affects the performance of your fellow athlete.
:04:41. > :04:49.You are living so close together. Coming home late at night, making
:04:49. > :04:53.some noise and affecting someone's performance. These are basic
:04:53. > :04:55.standards. This is speaking to all the athletes. You talk about
:04:55. > :04:58.keeping your accommodation clean and tidy, no irresponsible
:04:59. > :05:04.Twittering, no swearing in public. No late-night noise. It smacks of
:05:04. > :05:14.treating these top athletes like children. We could have gone a lot
:05:14. > :05:15.
:05:15. > :05:20.further. The last thing you want is having everyone do what they want.
:05:20. > :05:27.Taking pictures of you. You have 26 teams coming together from a
:05:27. > :05:37.complete dichotomy of different sports. Sports where this is new to
:05:37. > :05:37.
:05:38. > :05:42.them. As I said before, I cannot speak with the athletes. It maybe
:05:42. > :05:52.inadvertent. This is crucial to the performance of the team. This is
:05:52. > :05:53.
:05:53. > :05:56.Here are the words of Darren Campbell, a former sprint champion.
:05:56. > :06:01.He says, it is totally different when you're competing as an
:06:01. > :06:04.individual. He is talking about the fact that much of your experience
:06:04. > :06:14.is in team sports. For example, Phillips Idowu, the great a triple
:06:14. > :06:16.
:06:16. > :06:19.jumper, he knows what works for him. You cannot put rules down like this.
:06:19. > :06:26.The way we have done this, we have done this across the 26 team
:06:26. > :06:35.leaders. They go back to their athletes. They feed back to us if
:06:35. > :06:38.there is anything that has caused some problem. By the time they are
:06:38. > :06:48.right at the Games, someone like Phillips, he wants to know
:06:48. > :06:51.
:06:51. > :06:53.everything around him will be normal. Nothing can happen that may
:06:53. > :07:03.affect his performance. The point that Darren Campbell was making,
:07:03. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:13.you can't treat individuals like Bolt or Idowu the same as you have.
:07:13. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:17.Like in rugby or your brief career I disagree. The secret is to treat
:07:17. > :07:22.them more as individuals. Coaching a rugby team, you are approaching
:07:22. > :07:27.individual people. To coach a rugby team, it is no different to a
:07:27. > :07:32.coaching Darren Campbell or Usain Bolt. A lot of stuff we did in
:07:32. > :07:41.rugby, it will work with individual athletes to make them better. That
:07:41. > :07:50.is how I actually describe it. I would run a rugby team no different
:07:50. > :07:54.to coaching an individual athlete. The Olympic Games is about bringing
:07:54. > :07:56.people together and unless you know how to operate, this could all go
:07:56. > :08:01.wrong and things could happen outside the actual performance side
:08:01. > :08:06.of things. It could affect their ability to operate at the optimum
:08:06. > :08:11.level. This is just sheer common sense. There is not an athlete I
:08:11. > :08:18.have spoken to who is not willing to do this. They come back with
:08:19. > :08:26.more ideas. I say, let us keep it to the bare minimum. Sheer common
:08:26. > :08:30.sense. It is the common sense things that do not get used. That's
:08:30. > :08:39.all I am trying to do. Another point about your background.
:08:39. > :08:42.Intense effort put into preparation. Minute attention to detail. That's
:08:42. > :08:44.a mark of your preparation. The England rugby team. There are some
:08:44. > :08:48.suggestions, such as Tom Daley, the diver, they're not necessarily
:08:48. > :08:55.quite putting in the hard work and the commitment that might have been
:08:55. > :09:02.expected by sports directors like you. His own diving coach has said
:09:02. > :09:10.he is being sort of distracted by media work. He sees the Chinese
:09:10. > :09:19.work much harder. They restrict the Chinese. I support Do you see a
:09:19. > :09:23.problem here? I do not see a problem. We have 26 sports. In each
:09:23. > :09:27.sport, everyone is different. thought your sporting philosophy,
:09:27. > :09:29.that applies across sport. There is a lot of common DNA, as you call it.
:09:29. > :09:37.If I was coaching any sport, football, rugby, cricket, diving,
:09:37. > :09:43.it is about, for me, being absolutely passionate to detail.
:09:43. > :09:53.The higher up you go, Beijing was my first games. You were taking on
:09:53. > :09:54.
:09:54. > :10:00.the whole world there. It needed to be very special. To get there, you
:10:00. > :10:05.have a talented athlete. You don't have detailed preparation. That is
:10:05. > :10:14.what I try to do. All I can do is coach, I can think, what else can
:10:14. > :10:16.You are employing science and technology and psychology as well.
:10:16. > :10:26.You are employing all these different disciplines to get that
:10:26. > :10:27.
:10:27. > :10:31.edge. The sports do this anyway. I'm surprised what was said about
:10:31. > :10:34.Tom Daley, I went to see him in Shanghai, he did remarkably well.
:10:34. > :10:37.This is an incredibly talented athlete. He may be a bit different
:10:37. > :10:47.and operates as an individual but the way he has prepared himself,
:10:47. > :10:50.people should be quite proud of him. There's maybe just a few things.
:10:50. > :10:53.His coach is comparing him with the Chinese, it is different. These are
:10:53. > :10:57.very positive comments that his coach is making because he will
:10:57. > :11:00.have a very good games. Another aspect of the unity you want in the
:11:00. > :11:08.team might be affected by a ruling in the Court of Arbitration for
:11:08. > :11:11.Sport. They need to decide this. Upholding the determination to ban
:11:11. > :11:14.from the team athletes who have been convicted of serious doping
:11:14. > :11:24.offences. It could mean that key figures in cycling, like David
:11:24. > :11:25.
:11:25. > :11:35.Miller, would be back on the team. Dwayne Chambers as well. Would that
:11:35. > :11:38.
:11:38. > :11:43.We will go with what the court says. The sports are already preparing
:11:43. > :11:51.that. Whichever way this goes. We will go with what arbitration says.
:11:51. > :11:57.I wonder what psychological affect These are very top people and very
:11:57. > :12:01.top teams. It will be very tough. Whichever way it goes, we would
:12:01. > :12:11.just adhere to that. It seems the overwhelming majority believe the
:12:11. > :12:16.
:12:16. > :12:23.Most of the athletes believe that to stick with the lifetime ban. If
:12:23. > :12:27.it is overturned, surely many of At the end of this day, like this
:12:27. > :12:33.interview, you are asked to comment on things and I agree with it. 90%
:12:33. > :12:39.of athletes agree with the stance on it. You will find people will
:12:39. > :12:49.move on. If it does not go that way, I do not think it will affect the
:12:49. > :12:50.
:12:50. > :12:55.team. I don't think so. You move on very quickly. These are tough
:12:55. > :13:03.people. You don't say, I did not win a medal because the Court of
:13:03. > :13:06.Arbitration went to this way. It is nonsense. This is an interesting
:13:06. > :13:10.topic. In terms of a debate in the performance of the team, I do not
:13:10. > :13:13.think so. As you look at the sport today and I'm not just talking
:13:13. > :13:16.about your role in the Olympic team, do you believe that money is
:13:16. > :13:23.increasingly becoming a corrosive factor at the top of professional
:13:23. > :13:28.No I don't. I think it is the opposite. I think in a way, what I
:13:28. > :13:34.do state is the money is not the prerequisite for winning. I see
:13:34. > :13:38.people getting grants and money and still not go well. You need a
:13:38. > :13:47.certain amount of money, there is no doubt about that. You might need
:13:47. > :13:51.several things. It's about the coaches and the athletes. A certain
:13:51. > :13:54.amount of funding to compete at that level. That is the sort of
:13:54. > :13:57.funding that is put into resources. I was thinking in a different way.
:13:57. > :13:59.Like professional football, the astronomical sums that are paid to
:13:59. > :14:01.individual footballers and which some would argue changes the
:14:01. > :14:07.relationship between the footballer, the team and in particular, the
:14:08. > :14:11.manager or coach. The footballer holds so many of the cards because
:14:11. > :14:20.of his economic power, earning maybe 5 or 6 or �7 million a year,
:14:20. > :14:24.that it changes the dynamic and it No, to me, the great managers, they
:14:24. > :14:26.will come up with this perfectly well. But Alex Ferguson has said
:14:27. > :14:36.his relationship with players has changed as the economics of
:14:37. > :14:44.
:14:44. > :14:47.football has changed, so it is the He is, to me, a complete role model.
:14:47. > :14:57.He has been up there so long, he would have changed his management
:14:57. > :14:58.
:14:58. > :15:02.style as circumstances change. One is the financial reward. I'm sure
:15:02. > :15:12.he has changed since that but he is still the boss and he manages
:15:12. > :15:12.
:15:12. > :15:16.Look at Carlos Tevez. He is paid so much, but during a Champions League
:15:16. > :15:23.game, he was called by his manager to warm up and go on and play, and
:15:23. > :15:28.it seems he refused. That kind of thing may have happened in a whole
:15:28. > :15:31.lot of sports. I have never seen football more popular. The Premier
:15:31. > :15:38.League is the best in the world. In China, you have the Premier League
:15:38. > :15:41.on television. It is the most popular game. That kind of thing
:15:41. > :15:47.could happen in any other sport, but they might not be as high
:15:47. > :15:56.profile. But you believe that athletes should be given roles,
:15:56. > :16:05.guidelines and that is important for building a team and unity. Do
:16:05. > :16:08.you think that would work in professional football today? Yes.
:16:08. > :16:13.From my experience with professional football, I have been
:16:13. > :16:17.to Arsenal and have seen the way it is run. It is a military operation.
:16:17. > :16:23.That is why they are so successful. They have incredible team rules in
:16:23. > :16:29.terms of how they operate. It is fantastic. It gave me many new
:16:29. > :16:37.ideas. Right down to dressing-gowns and showering in certain showers if
:16:37. > :16:40.you have got mud on you. It is amazing. It sets an incredible
:16:40. > :16:45.culture of discipline for the team. I think you'll find most top
:16:45. > :16:49.football clubs have this in place. That brings me to your own home
:16:49. > :16:52.sport, rugby. If all that is achievable and possible, even in
:16:52. > :17:02.the most lucrative of sports, what on earth went wrong in the World
:17:02. > :17:07.
:17:07. > :17:11.Cup for the England rugby team? Their discipline clearly was
:17:11. > :17:16.lacking. I'm still a bit perplexed by that. When you know the
:17:16. > :17:20.characters involved, Martin Johnson, Mike Tindall, these are people...
:17:20. > :17:24.Martin Johnson became the coach having led England in 2003. There
:17:24. > :17:27.he was last year in the World Cup campaign and we saw England players
:17:27. > :17:31.going out late at night drinking after matches, we saw a bizarre
:17:31. > :17:41.bungee-jumping trip during the World Cup campaign. How could that
:17:41. > :17:41.
:17:41. > :17:46.have happened? To be fair, I will not defend them because I went to
:17:46. > :17:56.New Zealand for the final two weeks. They got it wrong. I think they had
:17:56. > :17:59.
:17:59. > :18:02.of control. The most questionable thing was the bungee-jumping. To
:18:02. > :18:10.see the players with management approval go off on a bungee-jumping
:18:10. > :18:16.trip was amazing to me. Can you imagine in the Olympics, Chris Hoy
:18:16. > :18:23.bungee-jumping a week before his race? You would just laugh. That
:18:23. > :18:29.almost summed the trip up for me. I do not know what went on. I had
:18:29. > :18:36.never spoken to them about it. I do not think it is quite as bad as it
:18:36. > :18:45.has been portrayed. It was one bad night out. It got out of control.
:18:45. > :18:48.But I would not even have thought about bungee-jumping. I sense your
:18:48. > :18:51.bemusement, but given that, does it strike you as strange that there
:18:51. > :18:54.are senior people who are still involved with England rugby who did
:18:54. > :19:04.not feel the need to walk away, like Martin Johnson did after that
:19:04. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:13.disastrous campaign? That is not my call. Martin did the right thing.
:19:13. > :19:21.He knew he had a very bad World Cup. What other people do, that is out
:19:21. > :19:25.of my jurisdiction. England has a caretaker coach at the moment. It
:19:25. > :19:33.has an elite rugby director who has been around for a long time. Would
:19:33. > :19:37.you like either of those positions? I have not thought about it.
:19:37. > :19:45.Everybody else has been talking about it! It has not crossed my
:19:45. > :19:50.mind. The job is not available. yet. All I can say is I have never
:19:50. > :20:00.planned my career. The job I have now kind of came across my desk.
:20:00. > :20:02.You do not know what will happen. I'm very happy with my position.
:20:02. > :20:11.I'm not even thinking about rugby, because there are no interesting
:20:11. > :20:15.jobs in rugby at the moment. I was wondering, if you were to take
:20:15. > :20:17.charge of England, would you try to change the culture? The
:20:17. > :20:24.investigation after the World Cup, players were asked to give their
:20:24. > :20:28.opinion. One player described how after losing to France, a team-mate
:20:28. > :20:32.came in and said, that is �35,000 gone down the toilet. It went back
:20:32. > :20:38.to money. Do you think there is a problem with the mindset of English
:20:38. > :20:45.rugby players? I do not think there is a problem. That is almost like
:20:45. > :20:48.dressing room humour. I could see someone saying that. Sometimes
:20:48. > :20:53.you're absolutely on the floor and when you're looking at it in black
:20:53. > :21:02.and white, out of context, it can take a new meaning. Given the
:21:02. > :21:12.disappointment, that is something I can see a player saying. But it is
:21:12. > :21:15.not such a high-paid sport. When you see what they do and the way
:21:15. > :21:19.they condition themselves and the dangers they put themselves in.
:21:19. > :21:24.This is a highly dangerous game. I think they deserve every single
:21:24. > :21:32.penny they get. You have said that you will not rule anything out, I
:21:32. > :21:38.am wondering, what about football? You worked with Southampton for a
:21:38. > :21:42.short time, which didn't work out so well. You have also said that
:21:42. > :21:49.you would love a crack at full-time football management. Will you look
:21:49. > :21:55.at that? It is interesting that you say it did not work out well. I had
:21:55. > :22:00.a fantastic time. Southampton did not do very well. Harry Redknapp
:22:00. > :22:07.left and you left soon after. I was going to be there for a year,
:22:07. > :22:16.maximum. I was behind the scenes looking at the whole structure. I
:22:16. > :22:20.was offered two jobs in football and was about to go into management.
:22:20. > :22:24.They were two leagues below Southampton. I was going to do it.
:22:24. > :22:28.I have learned enough and I was about to start at the bottom. But
:22:28. > :22:38.then I got a call from Colin Moynihan about the Olympics. It was
:22:38. > :22:41.
:22:41. > :22:46.fantastic. I had a great year with Southampton. I sense your
:22:46. > :22:50.excitement about football, but here is what one sports writer said.
:22:50. > :22:53.Richard Williams said: "Clive Woodward's is the story of an
:22:53. > :22:59.energetic and imaginative man who has failed to find another vehicle
:22:59. > :23:05.for his gifts." Do you think that is fair? Not at all. I'm incredibly
:23:05. > :23:10.happy. I have had a great time since 2006, a great year at
:23:10. > :23:18.Southampton. But you have written a book called, Winning'. A lot of
:23:18. > :23:24.your life has been devoted to finding ways to win. I have not put
:23:24. > :23:27.myself in that position. Are you shying away from that? I am
:23:27. > :23:37.committed to the BOA, to Colin Moynihan, and I'm looking forward
:23:37. > :23:38.
:23:38. > :23:41.to 2012. I did a huge amount of learning in those six years. People
:23:41. > :23:46.are far more open in Olympic sports than I was in rugby, certainly. The
:23:46. > :23:56.amount of learning I have done has been fantastic. I hope I can pass
:23:56. > :23:59.that onto other coaches. But I have not stopped. I have had a great
:23:59. > :24:06.time doing what I'm doing. Hopefully I can pass on my
:24:06. > :24:11.experience to other people. And a final thought. Do you get as much
:24:11. > :24:15.joy from sport today as you did ten years ago? Totally. In a different
:24:15. > :24:20.way. When I was coaching, there is one sort of joy when you're in the
:24:20. > :24:25.changing room and there is a lot at stake. What I do now is a bit
:24:25. > :24:29.different. I enjoy it in a different way. People might look at