:00:03. > :00:10.people off benefits and into work. That is a summary of the headlines.
:00:10. > :00:19.Well it is time for HARDtalk. Goodnight.
:00:19. > :00:23.My special guest on today's HARDtalk is an official visit to to
:00:23. > :00:28.London, President Yoweri Museveni of Uganda. Since he led a rebel
:00:28. > :00:31.army into Kampala in 1986, he has delivered relative stability and
:00:31. > :00:36.economic progress into a country which had been brutalised by
:00:36. > :00:41.dictatorship. But now he faces a real questions about his commitment
:00:41. > :00:45.to genuine democracy and human rights. When he took power, he said
:00:45. > :00:55.that Africa's biggest problem was leaders who overstayed their
:00:55. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:24.welcome. Is he now in danger of falling into that very same trap?
:01:24. > :01:28.Presidential wherein Museveni, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:28. > :01:32.Many years ago, you wrote a book, called What is Africa's problem?
:01:32. > :01:37.And your conclusion was that the club -- the continent's biggest
:01:37. > :01:40.problem was leaders to stay in power too long. He used it after a
:01:40. > :01:45.quarter of the century in power. Have you forgotten your own words?
:01:45. > :01:54.I have not forgotten my words. What I meant was that people state too
:01:54. > :01:58.long in power or without being evicted. You say I have been in
:01:58. > :02:03.government 25 years, but I have been elected all the time. That is
:02:03. > :02:08.true. You have been elected. Some people would dispute whether those
:02:08. > :02:10.elections were truly free, but leaving that aside, in 1995 you
:02:10. > :02:15.supported a constitution that imposed term limits on the
:02:15. > :02:20.President. Years later you decided that he did not believe in term
:02:20. > :02:29.limits any more. Why was that? think the term that limits are not
:02:29. > :02:36.really the crux of the matter. I think we are leaving the court
:02:36. > :02:39.issues aside. We will get to the substance, but one of the thought
:02:39. > :02:49.of leaders in Africa who have stayed in power for an awful long
:02:49. > :02:50.
:02:50. > :02:55.worry in the top five now, but the list includes Robert Mugabe, it
:02:55. > :02:59.includes the leaders of Equatorial Guinea and Cameroon. Is this
:02:59. > :03:09.company that you are proud to keep? I keep the company of the elected
:03:09. > :03:10.
:03:10. > :03:15.leaders. That is the company that I keep. That is the issue. More
:03:15. > :03:24.importantly, you should ask me the question of what Africa needs. Is
:03:24. > :03:34.it just a change of leaders, or is it programmes? In terms of social
:03:34. > :03:40.and economic transformation, you are viewing the issue wrongly. The
:03:40. > :03:47.issue for the African people is which way to go. The problem of
:03:47. > :03:51.Africa is not who, but what. Let's get to the what. Let's try to
:03:51. > :03:56.define what you strategy for Uganda has really amounted to. We will
:03:56. > :04:00.start with politics, we will start with notions of pluralism,
:04:00. > :04:05.democracy, multi-party democracy. And the right to dissent. If we
:04:05. > :04:09.look at what has happened in the last year in your country, and
:04:09. > :04:14.think particularly of the security forces' reaction to popular
:04:14. > :04:21.protests last year, in April of last year, it does not look as
:04:21. > :04:27.though you really do like dissent. Not at all. I have no problem with
:04:27. > :04:31.dissent, and I have no problem with popular manifestations. The only
:04:31. > :04:36.contention was, when Duke engage in a manifestation, a demonstration,
:04:36. > :04:43.you should respect the rights of others. Kampala is still a crowded
:04:43. > :04:47.city. The infrastructure, the roads are still narrow. Our argument was
:04:47. > :04:53.that if you want to demonstrate, agree with the police about where
:04:53. > :04:57.to demonstrate, and to which routes to follow. That's all. You say
:04:57. > :05:01.that's all, but these walk to work protests ended with your security
:05:01. > :05:06.forces killing nine people, including a child, including two
:05:06. > :05:14.people shot in the back, including two people shot inside buildings.
:05:14. > :05:19.That does not sound like the workings of a real democracy.
:05:19. > :05:29.people who were killed, those who killed, they have been arrested and
:05:29. > :05:31.
:05:31. > :05:39.tried. They were people who abused their authority, and they created a
:05:39. > :05:43.tragedy, those particular people. There were some accidental deaths.
:05:43. > :05:47.Would you accept that it might be used for, given the very high
:05:47. > :05:50.temperature we see in Ugandan politics today, and we have talked
:05:50. > :05:54.about the violence that has been all the streets, do you think it
:05:54. > :06:04.would be useful for you to indicate that you do not intend to run again
:06:04. > :06:06.
:06:06. > :06:10.in 2016? That is for my party to work on,. No, it is also for ute to
:06:10. > :06:15.declare what your intentions are. Do you want to run again in 2016?
:06:15. > :06:19.It is up to my party to decide what we want to do. Of course, with my
:06:19. > :06:27.input, but I did not come here on television to decide my party
:06:27. > :06:31.programmes. Well, if you do want to, we would be delighted to hear them,
:06:31. > :06:41.but if you do not want to let's move on. When we decide what to do
:06:41. > :06:45.I will come back. Laughter back. And use your services. But you have
:06:45. > :06:49.made it clear that your party makes key decisions. I would put it to
:06:49. > :06:52.you that your party is increasingly unhappy with some of that things
:06:52. > :06:57.that are happening inside your own country, not least, what is
:06:57. > :07:00.happening with oil businesses and oil contracts. There is one key
:07:00. > :07:07.Western company that has been in negotiation with your government
:07:07. > :07:17.for a long time about exploring major tracks of potential oil in
:07:17. > :07:18.
:07:18. > :07:22.the late Albert region. -- Lake Albert. Parliament suspended any
:07:22. > :07:25.discussion of contracts until new laws have been passed, but to
:07:25. > :07:34.override parliament and signed the deal with the company anyway. Why
:07:34. > :07:38.did you do that? The past 10 resolutions -- they past 10 no
:07:38. > :07:42.resolutions, the government accepted eight but it did not
:07:42. > :07:46.accept two out of the 10. But they were rather crucial, because it
:07:46. > :07:52.meant you could go ahead and sign a deal that the parliament said
:07:52. > :07:58.should be suspended. At the time the parliament was operating on the
:07:58. > :08:08.documents which were presented to Parliament which were fraudulent.
:08:08. > :08:11.
:08:11. > :08:16.When I met with MPs in my party, we had a majority, come in any case,
:08:16. > :08:23.we have explored for that oil, we have found it, we have now advanced
:08:23. > :08:27.very far and are now a key production state. What laws are we
:08:27. > :08:37.using? We are using some laws. So do not give the impression that
:08:37. > :08:37.
:08:37. > :08:41.there is an absence of laws. We are talking about Updating the walls.
:08:41. > :08:45.Well, many people inside your country as well as outside a look
:08:45. > :08:49.at the wait your country has been affected by having a huge oil
:08:49. > :08:56.resources. People look at Nigeria, add Equatorial Guinea, and they
:08:56. > :09:02.talk about the curse of oil. In your own parliament, and MP has
:09:02. > :09:09.claimed that senior ministers in York government received kickbacks
:09:09. > :09:17.from the oil company. -- your cupboard. What kickbacks paid to
:09:17. > :09:21.senior ministers? We worked with the police, including the British
:09:21. > :09:27.police here, and police in Malta, and we found those documents to be
:09:27. > :09:30.fraudulent. But you do have a corruption problem. You have had
:09:30. > :09:34.two senior ministers resign in the last few days, over an allegation
:09:34. > :09:39.of payments that were made to a senior member of your political
:09:39. > :09:42.party, a property developer, $60 million. Two ministers signed off
:09:42. > :09:52.on payments, they said you knew about these payments as well.
:09:52. > :09:55.
:09:55. > :10:00.you? I did not know about these payments. I am the one he picked
:10:00. > :10:04.that businessman out of the markets. The problem was that he was given
:10:04. > :10:09.what people considered to be given too much money. That is where the
:10:09. > :10:13.contention lies. It does not sit well, in a population experiencing
:10:13. > :10:19.25% inflation, where a quarter of your people are still living below
:10:19. > :10:21.the poverty line. It does not look good when this sort of vast sum of
:10:21. > :10:31.muddy his swerving around the political business network in
:10:31. > :10:34.
:10:34. > :10:37.Kampala. We started the process of investigation. I am the one who
:10:37. > :10:40.demanded the resignation of those ministers. And it showed the
:10:40. > :10:46.strength of our system. The police found out about this programme in
:10:46. > :10:50.tone. Our Public Accounts Committee did the investigation, and now they
:10:50. > :10:56.have taken action. That is how healthy systems work. They work by
:10:56. > :11:00.detecting wrongs and correcting them. Let me ask you about another
:11:00. > :11:06.aspect of your vision for Uganda, and that is your commitment to
:11:06. > :11:12.individual rights. There has been a great focus in the last couple of
:11:12. > :11:17.years in the West on Uganda's treatment of homosexuals. Are you
:11:17. > :11:26.entirely satisfied that homosexuals in your country are having their
:11:26. > :11:32.human rights respected? The issue is mishandled by Western countries,
:11:32. > :11:42.and by their affiliated groups. Homosexuals, in small numbers, have
:11:42. > :11:42.
:11:42. > :11:45.existed throughout black Africa. They were never prosecuted,...
:11:45. > :11:51.it is entirely a legal to be homosexual and practise
:11:51. > :11:54.homosexuality in your country. listen. They were never prosecuted,
:11:54. > :12:00.they were never discriminated against. But the difference between
:12:00. > :12:07.us and Western societies, there were also not promoted. So the
:12:07. > :12:14.problem is on the promotion. The difference between Africa and
:12:14. > :12:20.Western Europe is on the promotion of homosexuality. Europe sees it as
:12:20. > :12:25.something good, and so forth. What happens in our traditional society
:12:25. > :12:31.is that homosexuality is not approved, but it will be ignored.
:12:31. > :12:36.It is a private issue. Well, it obviously hasn't been ignored, has
:12:36. > :12:39.it? We had gay activists murdered just last year. A leading gay
:12:39. > :12:43.activist was murdered in your country. And now you parliament is
:12:43. > :12:47.considering new legislation which would massively increase the
:12:47. > :12:52.punishments for what the sexuality, from up to 14 years in prison to a
:12:52. > :12:57.new punishment of life in prison. What is your view as President of
:12:57. > :13:02.that proposal? My view is that I do not support the promotion of
:13:02. > :13:12.homosexuals are to, but I do not support a prosecution or
:13:12. > :13:13.
:13:13. > :13:19.discrimination of homosexuals. We never discriminated against them,
:13:19. > :13:25.we never marginalised them or discriminated against them. What we
:13:25. > :13:29.resent his promotion. But if the parliament passes this legislation
:13:29. > :13:39.pushing for life in prison for homosexuality will be block that
:13:39. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:44.It will depend on what the life sentences for. Is it for promotion?
:13:44. > :13:53.For instance youths do not practise by offering money, that is where
:13:53. > :13:57.the problem is. Manipulating and the way they collect from the West
:13:57. > :14:01.is what I have a problem with. couple of years ago you said
:14:01. > :14:05.homosexual relationships are against God's will. You believe
:14:05. > :14:15.there is a religious as well as a legislative and political needs to
:14:15. > :14:23.take action against homosexuals are tea? It is true that... --
:14:23. > :14:31.homosexuality. Certainly the way that is normally is to be
:14:31. > :14:39.heterosexual. -- that is normal. People are created for different
:14:39. > :14:47.reasons, though. Our culture is to keep your private life to yourself.
:14:47. > :14:51.Do not impose it on others. Do not promote it, just keep your own
:14:51. > :14:55.confidential sexual life to yourself. A final thought on this.
:14:55. > :15:01.President Obama for one but other Western leaders as well have said
:15:01. > :15:06.that they will tie future aid and development funding in a host of
:15:06. > :15:10.countries, including yours, to what they see on the human rights front,
:15:10. > :15:14.but particularly on these gender and sexual identity issues. How do
:15:15. > :15:21.you feel about that? That would be their biggest mistake. They should
:15:21. > :15:27.be very careful about black Africa. Black Africa are a humble people.
:15:27. > :15:33.We do not impress our views on any body. We are not like Europeans or
:15:33. > :15:41.Arabs, who want to impose their views. I normally tell people that
:15:41. > :15:45.when I hear Arabs talking haram, something is haram, I always tell
:15:45. > :15:52.them that my list of haram is much longer than that of the Arabs. I
:15:52. > :15:57.don't eat fish. I don't each chicken because I believe if you
:15:57. > :16:02.each chicken you will be unstable. I don't eat peas, I don't eat many
:16:02. > :16:06.of those things that many people eat. When I go abroad I have a
:16:06. > :16:10.problem of what to eat but I keep this to myself. This is the
:16:10. > :16:14.difference with black people. yo yormined to keep it to
:16:14. > :16:24.yourself then will you sack you will Minister for ethics who just a
:16:24. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:32.few days ago forced a group of homosexuals out. He invaded their
:16:32. > :16:42.personal space. This question, I have told you, home of sexuality --
:16:42. > :16:51.home, sexuality, you are not prosecuted or you are not
:16:51. > :16:55.persecuted. It depends on what you are doing. You told me when I
:16:55. > :16:59.mentioned President Obama's position, that Western governments
:16:59. > :17:03.and leaders need to be careful. Let's explore that idea a bit
:17:03. > :17:07.further. You said not so long ago that Western countries do not
:17:07. > :17:12.listen carefully, they are full of themselves, they think they know
:17:12. > :17:15.everything. It sounds like you are rather frustrated in your
:17:15. > :17:24.relationship with what are supposed to be some of your closest partners
:17:24. > :17:31.in western capitals? They are our closest partners but they should
:17:31. > :17:36.avoid this comment like tying aid to promoting sexuality and will not
:17:36. > :17:40.be accepted. It would be a very big mistake. Let's talk about what you
:17:40. > :17:43.are doing with the United States for example. At the moment I
:17:43. > :17:48.believe they have 100 military advisers working closely with your
:17:48. > :17:54.government. I know they have given you tens of millions of dollars of
:17:54. > :17:57.military assistants, all of it aimed to fight the Lord's
:17:57. > :18:01.Resistance Army, the insurgent group, who have done so much damage
:18:01. > :18:05.and killed so many people in the North of your country. Is it your
:18:05. > :18:11.belief that with US assistance, even though the leader, Joseph Kone,
:18:11. > :18:19.is no longer in your country, that you can now once and for destroy
:18:19. > :18:23.the Lord's Resistance Army? We have gotten rid of that group. They are
:18:23. > :18:33.now in the South African Republic and very far away. So what are the
:18:33. > :18:38.
:18:38. > :18:43.military advisers for? To help, to work with the country's who are
:18:44. > :18:50.killing and kidnapping. Our Ugandan forces going to go after Joseph
:18:50. > :18:55.Kony and his people? You are going to go into the Central African
:18:55. > :19:05.Republic and take this to the end. Is there a military solution there
:19:05. > :19:11.
:19:11. > :19:15.is. It is only the people in the Central African Republic that can
:19:16. > :19:19.hunt him there. If that is your belief, that you can find a
:19:19. > :19:24.military solution to the NRA problem, do you believe the same
:19:24. > :19:28.thing about Somalia where you have thousands of troops, the biggest
:19:28. > :19:32.single contributor to the African Union military mission in Somalia,
:19:32. > :19:37.do you believe if you ramp up the mission even more, as is being
:19:37. > :19:42.discussed right now, that you can destroy the Al-Shabab movement in
:19:42. > :19:47.Somalia? Somalia is a different issue. It is not just military it
:19:47. > :19:56.is also political. You just can't talk about a military solution. It
:19:56. > :19:59.is a part of the effort but it must be accompanied by political
:19:59. > :20:04.negotiations and injuring that there is an accountable government
:20:04. > :20:08.for the foreseeable future -- enduring. The current mission is
:20:08. > :20:13.around 12,000 strong and half of the trips are from Uganda. You want
:20:13. > :20:19.that forced to go up to about 17,000 -- the troops. How many are
:20:19. > :20:24.you prepared to put on the ground in Somalia? Uganda is a country of
:20:24. > :20:30.4 million people so we are not short of people, we can mobilise a
:20:30. > :20:34.bit army to help our people. there a danger for Uganda? In 2010
:20:35. > :20:39.you had a terrible incident in the streets of Kampala, we believe
:20:39. > :20:44.planted by the militant Islamists from Somalia, killing many people.
:20:44. > :20:54.There is the danger of jihadists, an Islamist, looking at Uganda and
:20:54. > :20:55.
:20:55. > :20:59.seeing a target that they want to hit. These jihadists are very non-
:20:59. > :21:03.African in their attitude. I have told you about black Africans and I
:21:03. > :21:08.have a long list of haram but I never impose it on anyone else.
:21:08. > :21:12.This is my private business. When you speak like this it seems like
:21:12. > :21:16.you don't want to see Islam in Africa, you are suggesting to me
:21:16. > :21:22.that somehow Africa is not compatible with his lambing belief
:21:22. > :21:26.and thought? Not at all. Not at all -- with Islamic belief and thought.
:21:26. > :21:35.You can look around Africa and there have been huge Muslim
:21:35. > :21:40.communities all over the confident. Muslims are my biggest supporters.
:21:40. > :21:50.But also Muslims engage in that kind of chauvinism. They abuse
:21:50. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:57.themselves. I wonder whether you look at your long ruled and you're
:21:58. > :22:02.beyond borders engagements with your military forces, a long and
:22:02. > :22:07.extraordinarily costly engagement in the Democratic Republic of Congo
:22:07. > :22:12.from 1998-2003, the forces you have now got in Somalia, the forces you
:22:12. > :22:16.have got in Central African Republic fighting the Lord's
:22:16. > :22:22.Resistance Army. Do you believe in the end that you have resorted to
:22:22. > :22:28.often to military solutions? need to remember the history of
:22:28. > :22:36.Africa. Our Brothers in Mozambique got their freedom assisted by
:22:36. > :22:42.Tanzania, I Zambia, that is how they got their freedom -- by Zambia.
:22:42. > :22:49.We got our freedom assisted by Zambia and Mozambique and Tanzania.
:22:49. > :22:54.We work together. We work together and defeat the resistance in
:22:54. > :22:58.southern Africa, in Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Angola, and we are ready
:22:58. > :23:03.to act together to defeat these foreigners that are coming in with
:23:04. > :23:09.these chauvinistic ideas from the Middle East to plant them in our
:23:09. > :23:14.continent. In our continent, we are black people and we live the way we
:23:14. > :23:19.want to live there. We do not impose our opinions on anybody else.
:23:19. > :23:29.This business of saying I will not give you aid unless you change your
:23:29. > :23:32.
:23:32. > :23:39.position on homosexuals, and how you address homosexuals, why don't
:23:39. > :23:49.they led us do things our own way? Keep out. Exactly. A man you know
:23:49. > :23:50.
:23:50. > :23:54.well, for a former minister for justice to you, Mr Otafiire, he
:23:54. > :23:58.said that if the Yoweri Museveni of 1976 would meet the Yoweri Museveni
:23:58. > :24:06.of today, they would fight on site and probably shoot each other.
:24:06. > :24:11.that true? The Yoweri Museveni of 1976 was for democracy. So no
:24:11. > :24:16.change at all. Are you sure he is as convinced and as strictly
:24:16. > :24:22.sticking to his principles today as he was then? Absolutely, even more
:24:22. > :24:25.than men because now I am more informed with more facts, more
:24:25. > :24:32.exposure, I know how to run governments more than I did at the