:00:02. > :00:06.given to Meryl Streep, best leading actress, for her depiction of
:00:06. > :00:16.Margaret Thatcher in The Iron Lady. Congratulations to her.
:00:16. > :00:18.
:00:18. > :00:21.Now it is time for HARDtalk. The 10th anniversary of the end of
:00:21. > :00:25.Angola's devastating post- independence civil war is being
:00:25. > :00:27.marked in 2012. What a difference a decade makes. Angola is now one of
:00:27. > :00:30.Africa's powerhouse economies, enjoying growth that puts the West
:00:30. > :00:36.to shame, and exploiting China's insatiable demand for commodities,
:00:36. > :00:39.especially oil. I speak to Angola's foreign minister, Georges Chikoti.
:00:39. > :00:49.For Angola and Africa, this is a time of opportunity. Will it be
:00:49. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:13.seized or squandered? Georges Chikoti, welcome to
:01:14. > :01:17.HARDtalk. Thank you. You are in London on an official visit, the
:01:17. > :01:22.first Foreign Minister visit to London for a long time. Do you
:01:22. > :01:26.believe perceptions of Angola, maybe Africa, in Western capitals,
:01:26. > :01:31.has fundamentally changed? I think a lot needs to be done in that
:01:31. > :01:41.context. As far as I'm concerned I think there have been some
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:46.misconceptions. I think we have to take it to the last ten years of an
:01:46. > :01:56.All and peace, which has shown one of the great achievements our
:01:56. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:02.government has made -- and golden.... To have the growth we
:02:02. > :02:07.have in terms of the economic recovery. That is very very
:02:08. > :02:15.important. People have almost generally look Dakar problems more
:02:15. > :02:21.than the good things we have done. -- looked at. Does it make a big
:02:21. > :02:29.difference now that Angola has huge amounts of oil? It has made it,
:02:29. > :02:32.with Nigeria, the biggest oil exporter. It has cloud and muscle
:02:32. > :02:37.that is now recognised across the world. That surely makes a
:02:37. > :02:47.difference. It makes a difference but I think it also shows the
:02:47. > :02:50.
:02:50. > :02:55.strong leadership that Angola has. I think the President has the merit
:02:55. > :02:59.of having finished the war, we have reconciled Angola, everyone can
:02:59. > :03:03.participate in the process, not only of reconstruction but
:03:03. > :03:08.consolidating democracy. We have many challenges in Angola. Indeed,
:03:08. > :03:13.I believe that all these things have been achieved first because of
:03:13. > :03:20.strong leadership, good leadership and then we can think and talk
:03:20. > :03:23.about oil. We are lucky to have oil at this particular moment. To make
:03:24. > :03:29.good use of it for our own development. Let me stop you there
:03:29. > :03:34.- you said to make good use of it - let me be blunt, is the era of
:03:34. > :03:40.Western nations patronising Africa over? Well your new economic power
:03:40. > :03:45.ensure that you make sure it is over? I think we need to co-operate.
:03:45. > :03:51.I think we are not fighting against Western influence or Western powers.
:03:51. > :03:55.I think it is a different perspective. We need to take into
:03:55. > :04:02.account our own realities - Africa has some big challenge is in terms
:04:02. > :04:06.of its own development. What we need is to talk more and since my
:04:07. > :04:09.arrival in Britain I have been talking to politicians and the
:04:09. > :04:13.economic and business community so we can work together in the
:04:13. > :04:19.interest, not only of our countries, but also in the interest of Western
:04:19. > :04:24.powers. There is a need for better corporation. You're talking a lot
:04:24. > :04:27.about lessons to be learned. You went to the United Nations Assembly
:04:27. > :04:30.last November and you made a speech in which I was very interested to
:04:30. > :04:34.note you said that Angola could be seen as a reference point for how
:04:34. > :04:41.to resolve conflict in Africa. I wonder if you pitch yourself as a
:04:41. > :04:46.sort of model for Africa? What you believe and all is saying to, and
:04:46. > :04:49.can teach, the rest of your continent? I think we are saying
:04:49. > :04:53.that we have a particular experience way we have been able to
:04:53. > :04:57.make a transition from a long conflict and then coming out of the
:04:57. > :05:02.conflict with a devastated country and a divided society. We had to
:05:02. > :05:05.then engage in a process of rebuilding the society and also
:05:05. > :05:09.rebuilding community and infrastructure. We can say that we
:05:09. > :05:15.are able to do our part, but we are ready to work with international
:05:15. > :05:19.community. We have been able to help contribute to peace in some
:05:19. > :05:23.countries. You will recall that Angola, during this period of time,
:05:23. > :05:30.also participated in helping build the democratic process in the
:05:30. > :05:40.Republic where we helped not only trained the soldiers but the police.
:05:40. > :05:42.
:05:42. > :05:50.-- not only train.... What we are saying is that we are ready to co-
:05:50. > :05:53.operate. In any other conflict, based on an armoured security...
:05:53. > :05:57.Right, so you are doing different things in different neighbouring
:05:57. > :06:03.countries, but here is the bottom line. What kind of model tenure
:06:03. > :06:07.represent when you are run oil exporting nation with currency
:06:07. > :06:11.reserves of tens of billions of US dollars, and yet two-thirds of your
:06:11. > :06:17.own population still live on less than $2 per day. What kind of
:06:17. > :06:21.example is that? I don't think that is true as you put it. We have
:06:21. > :06:26.built more economic infrastructure than any other country in such a
:06:26. > :06:31.short period of time. In order to take development... You have
:06:31. > :06:37.infrastructure, but you still have unbelievable rate of poverty. You
:06:37. > :06:41.have one in ten residents of Rwanda with access to running water, the
:06:41. > :06:46.rest are without. You still have bourbon polio, which almost no
:06:46. > :06:50.other country in the world has, the highest infant mortality in the
:06:50. > :06:57.world. That is one of their challenges. You have a city which
:06:57. > :07:01.has had no infrastructure at all for 30 years.... It is clean
:07:01. > :07:06.running water, the situation is worse now than it was at the end of
:07:06. > :07:11.the civil war. We have more water now than at any other time. We are
:07:11. > :07:14.getting more electricity than at any other time. You need to look at
:07:14. > :07:21.these things with time. I think in the next three years we will
:07:21. > :07:27.achieve most of the main goals. I don't think we should... What we
:07:27. > :07:32.are trying to say is that with time, we are inviting in the number of
:07:32. > :07:35.partners, we are involved with countries, working partners with
:07:35. > :07:40.China, each country is doing a little piece. You need things to
:07:40. > :07:43.come into place, you need time. What I am grappling with is this
:07:43. > :07:47.idea of the new Africa, with Angola being the vanguard of the new
:07:47. > :07:53.Africa. You represent a government led by a President who has been in
:07:53. > :07:57.power for more than 30 years and yet it is still true today to say
:07:57. > :08:06.that Angola is one of the most aren't equal societies in the
:08:06. > :08:15.entire world. -- unequal. Why is that? I think you should first of
:08:15. > :08:20.all credit our president for peace. The challenges of the last 85 years
:08:20. > :08:25.have been war and peace. We have achieved peace. This is a very
:08:25. > :08:32.important aspect of... You know, we all know that hundreds of thousands
:08:32. > :08:36.of people died in your civil war, hang on... Hang on... Since we have
:08:36. > :08:41.had peace, we have had more people coming into schools, more hospitals
:08:41. > :08:46.built. You need time to do all of these things. I think you cannot
:08:46. > :08:51.now go very quickly to judge or us on our shortcomings. This is the
:08:51. > :09:00.only country where we are doing things by ourselves. Remember, this
:09:00. > :09:10.was a war that we did not provoke. This is a consequence of the cold -
:09:10. > :09:12.
:09:12. > :09:16.- Cold War. People wanted changed by force and they supported the
:09:16. > :09:19.military activities that destroyed or us. We are saying that we need
:09:19. > :09:24.to work together. You're saying there is poverty. There is poverty
:09:24. > :09:28.in Britain, there is poverty in the United States, anywhere. The
:09:28. > :09:35.percentage of poverty is proportionate to their time...
:09:35. > :09:41.minister, the point is not so much... Let me make my point. You
:09:41. > :09:45.are not judging or us from a distance. You are not looking at
:09:45. > :09:50.some of the fast changes we have done. It is very important that we
:09:50. > :09:54.have more children in schools today than ever before. I understand that,
:09:54. > :10:00.you have made that point, but my point to you is that much of it is
:10:00. > :10:04.unnecessary poverty, it is poverty born out of corruption.... I don't
:10:04. > :10:07.agree, it is born out of war. That is the wrong reading of the
:10:07. > :10:14.realities. Would you agree that corruption is a fundamental problem
:10:14. > :10:19.in your country? Corruption is a problem in Angola, it is a problem
:10:19. > :10:25.here, it is a problem anywhere. What were we do to fight it, we
:10:25. > :10:29.need institutions. At the end of the war we had no culture working,
:10:29. > :10:35.we had something they control the government spending, we had more
:10:35. > :10:40.and more things under control,... Who appoints the judiciary? Who is
:10:40. > :10:48.in charge Kvitova it is the president. We have a constitution.
:10:49. > :10:52.-- who is in charge? There is now such an inextricable link between
:10:52. > :10:56.business interests, presidency and politics that you have a system
:10:57. > :11:01.which is riddled from top to bottom with corruption. I don't agree with
:11:01. > :11:09.that. I think it is the understanding of things - people
:11:09. > :11:14.want to judge or us on one thing. We have to look at the changes that
:11:14. > :11:18.have taken place in society. The President is indeed an important
:11:18. > :11:23.player in order to consolidate democracy in our country. In order
:11:23. > :11:27.to achieve peace, a reconciliation. Just imagine someone like him
:11:27. > :11:37.coming from totally a different political background, totally a
:11:37. > :11:38.
:11:38. > :11:44.different ethnic group. Which, for a long time, was involved in war.
:11:44. > :11:49.Look at the difficulties we have had, people have been fighting for
:11:49. > :11:56.30 years, they are living together in one army, in one country, they
:11:56. > :12:01.are all... You have explained, yourself, you were close to the
:12:01. > :12:06.leader of the rebels... Exactly. What we should look at is how have
:12:06. > :12:09.the president been able to build a society? I believe that one day
:12:09. > :12:14.people have to judge how these processes took place. You have got
:12:14. > :12:18.to look at how many people died in this process and how much the
:12:18. > :12:23.president has been crucial to establishing peace. You keep
:12:23. > :12:27.talking about the overall... Establishment of peace as being the
:12:27. > :12:36.fundamental core of Angola... Because... Because... But I put it
:12:36. > :12:41.to you that right now, people in an goal would like to move on.... Let
:12:41. > :12:48.me make a point, I would like your thoughts on this. There is a
:12:48. > :12:53.journalist, an anti-corruption campaigner, in the recent past he
:12:53. > :12:59.has filed legal cases against members of the current government.
:12:59. > :13:03.One of the individuals he cited was the man who used to run your estate
:13:03. > :13:11.owned oil country. Some are to beat him as a possible successor to the
:13:11. > :13:15.President. According to the work done by this campaigner, when he
:13:15. > :13:25.was running the oil company he signed off on other on the contract
:13:25. > :13:26.
:13:26. > :13:31.by another company, it's a oil company, that was owned by those in
:13:31. > :13:40.politics. How do you feel about that sort of business relationship
:13:40. > :13:46.between politics and big oil? of all, we never heard the other
:13:46. > :13:51.side of the story. This man has made so many things, he has said so
:13:51. > :13:55.many things, not a lot of them are true. In many cases... By that is
:13:55. > :13:58.true. Wouldn't you regard it as completely and utterly
:13:58. > :14:03.unacceptable? I believe it is not true because the other side has
:14:03. > :14:12.never said anything. What you have to take into account here is that I
:14:12. > :14:16.think you need to give Angola time to put order it in its own country.
:14:16. > :14:20.I think what should be is that you give us the mayor at it from where
:14:20. > :14:24.we are coming from and the fact that we have been able to reconcile.
:14:24. > :14:27.All other things that corruption is not the most important thing. What
:14:27. > :14:32.we need is to have proper institutions in an goal that will
:14:32. > :14:36.allow opportunities for everybody. It somebody accuses somebody I
:14:36. > :14:46.think he should be fair. At the other side be given the opportunity
:14:46. > :14:47.
:14:47. > :14:57.run to respond. What is man says is He filed this and months ago and
:14:57. > :14:58.
:14:58. > :15:03.there has been no response. believe that what people want to do,
:15:03. > :15:12.but you may not want to recognise the most important developments
:15:12. > :15:15.Angola has achieved. I think some western countries have not been
:15:15. > :15:25.happy with Angola in the past and they don't want to accept good
:15:25. > :15:30.things can happen here. The British Government has $3 billion a year of
:15:30. > :15:33.trade with Angola each year and you want it higher. There are rules
:15:33. > :15:38.across the industrialised world about making sure the deals they do
:15:38. > :15:44.are done with clean companies with governments that work in those
:15:44. > :15:48.countries. They cannot be confident of that when you tell me that you
:15:48. > :15:52.frankly don't know whether one of the most senior members of your
:15:52. > :16:00.government is involved in these sorts of sweetheart deals between
:16:00. > :16:06.big oil business and government. What you are telling me is that Mr
:16:06. > :16:12.Rafael Marquez has written this, he has insulted many people in and go
:16:12. > :16:19.there. It is not about Rafael Marquez, it is about a culture of
:16:19. > :16:24.transparency. Your country is 160 something on a list of 180
:16:24. > :16:29.countries, you are at the bottom of the corruption index. Time and
:16:29. > :16:32.again this is reported by international observers. You are
:16:32. > :16:38.saying there are 100 and something countries all affected by a
:16:38. > :16:44.corruption. Globally all countries need to improve their policies, and
:16:44. > :16:49.my country is doing its putt. None of these countries were affected by
:16:49. > :16:53.25 or 30 years of war. First you need to look at how we are building
:16:53. > :16:59.institutions. We did not have a legal system working until ten
:16:59. > :17:03.years ago, we have won today. Today people can face trial whenever they
:17:03. > :17:07.commit a crime. When you have a legal system that works these
:17:07. > :17:12.things can be put in and those are one of the challenges of society.
:17:12. > :17:17.Before you can try us on so many things, go into details and look at
:17:17. > :17:21.the progress we have made on the legal system, into all the measures
:17:21. > :17:25.on equality in terms of competitions coming in. If things
:17:25. > :17:31.were so wrong, you are not going to have so many countries coming into
:17:31. > :17:38.Angola's. Today we have a private investment law that is so fair and
:17:38. > :17:43.so open. Hang on, let's stick to specifics, why did Angola promise
:17:43. > :17:50.it would sign the extractive industries transparency did
:17:50. > :17:56.initiative and then back away? Maybe some of its articles are not
:17:56. > :18:00.responding to what we want. A country can eventually not sign
:18:01. > :18:05.something that will affect their sovereignty. This was an
:18:05. > :18:08.international initiative, absolutely designed to introduce
:18:08. > :18:12.transparency to oil contracts across the world between
:18:12. > :18:16.governments and big businesses, between oil extraction companies
:18:16. > :18:20.and the contractors. Many many countries like Angola, which
:18:20. > :18:25.produces large amounts of oil, signed it. You said you would as
:18:25. > :18:31.well and then you refused. What did that say about your Government's
:18:31. > :18:37.commitment to transparency? I don't think that is the only point.
:18:37. > :18:43.must make your job very difficult? It doesn't. We went through a wall,
:18:43. > :18:53.you have to remember, during this war while was the only resource the
:18:53. > :18:57.Angolan government had to defend itself -- or York was. People say
:18:57. > :19:03.we need to look into our accounts. I think we will come to a stage
:19:03. > :19:06.where people have to understand they can not judge us from their
:19:06. > :19:11.point of view, they have got to judge us from the whole of our
:19:11. > :19:18.history and the difficulties we have gone through. Remember in
:19:18. > :19:23.southern Africa, not only did we have strife, but we are the only
:19:23. > :19:28.country that was invaded by the South African regime. At that time
:19:29. > :19:33.that was supported by many countries. Look at that. I keep
:19:33. > :19:38.trying to press you on the future and you keep looking back. You are
:19:38. > :19:42.not, you are trying to tell me that I am a corrupt nation. I am trying
:19:42. > :19:48.to tell you that you should not only judge us from there because
:19:48. > :19:58.the oil we are talking about, you are telling me that we do not spend
:19:58. > :19:59.
:19:59. > :20:03.our or you'll probably. People want to justify how we are spending our
:20:03. > :20:09.oil. I don't think those are the only aspects, looking at Rafael
:20:09. > :20:15.Marquez. They are other elements of Angola's current situation. I want
:20:15. > :20:20.to be fair. Let's look at another aspect of Angola's current politics
:20:20. > :20:25.and economic development, the relationship with China. Angola is
:20:25. > :20:30.China's number one supplier of oil. In return you have had vast
:20:30. > :20:35.development in infrastructure from China, billions of dollars. Are you
:20:35. > :20:40.satisfied with the way that relationship is working? I think we
:20:40. > :20:46.are satisfied globally with all the corporation with all of our
:20:46. > :20:55.partners. We give more oil to the Western countries. We give it to
:20:55. > :21:02.Chevron, BP, they take more... how do you call, the French company?
:21:02. > :21:06.China's relationship with Angola is actually extraordinary? It is.
:21:06. > :21:12.Within Africa as a whole, China's investment in your country is
:21:12. > :21:17.remarkable. Over $10 billion worth of roads, railways, hospitals, a
:21:17. > :21:20.new airport. Coming back to Rafael Marquez, who has done an awful lot
:21:20. > :21:25.of work on this, he talks about infrastructure projects that are
:21:25. > :21:30.crumbling. Roads that have been washed away. There is the general
:21:30. > :21:40.hospital in Luanda that was built by the Chinese and then had to be
:21:40. > :21:43.
:21:43. > :21:47.closed because of subsidence. Time and a gain the building in the
:21:47. > :21:50.country has been very poor. Why do you keep talking about Rafael
:21:50. > :21:57.Marquez? I will show you the good projects that China has built in
:21:57. > :22:00.Angola. We also have Western countries, I will not mention names,
:22:00. > :22:06.who have lied to us, who had promised to ask they would do
:22:06. > :22:09.things and they never did anything. Because of our capacity for
:22:09. > :22:13.verification and control and surveillance and knowing what is
:22:13. > :22:18.going on, we struggle sometimes. You can not only judge us on what
:22:18. > :22:21.is wrong, judge us on what is right. When you see a housing project,
:22:21. > :22:28.tens of thousands of social housing units being built by Chinese
:22:28. > :22:32.companies. And they all collapse! No, but when you look at them you
:22:32. > :22:36.see thousands of Chinese workers being employed and handfuls of
:22:36. > :22:42.Angolans. That is making Angolans very angry, there has been tension
:22:42. > :22:48.and violence. Do you understand it? You should not look at it that way.
:22:48. > :22:53.You can only take it one thing at a time. The Chinese build houses very
:22:53. > :22:58.quickly so we can give the House is to the Angolans. It is not
:22:58. > :23:01.necessarily to employ Angolans. It is true, sometimes with these
:23:01. > :23:07.contracts they come and then they go back quickly. The issue of jobs
:23:07. > :23:11.is one thing. Angola is coming out of a war, we have many people to in
:23:11. > :23:16.tents and they need jobs. In the long run we need to provide more
:23:16. > :23:21.jobs for younger people. But it should not be a confusion between
:23:21. > :23:24.the contracts that we have from Chinese companies, who come for a
:23:24. > :23:31.specific contract. They build the infrastructure and then they go
:23:31. > :23:35.away. They do not come to take jobs away from Angolans. Dos Santos has
:23:35. > :23:39.been in power for almost 30 years, there have been constitutional
:23:39. > :23:44.changes which mean he could be in power until 2022. We have seen an
:23:44. > :23:47.Arab spring in North Africa, will there be a time when the Angolan
:23:47. > :23:52.people will not be prepared to live under his authoritarian rule any
:23:52. > :23:57.more? Do you have a problem with it? They might have a problem with
:23:57. > :24:04.it. The most important thing is that we have a working democratic
:24:04. > :24:08.system. If the Angolans Chew's Dos Santos we are happy to be with him.
:24:08. > :24:12.You should look at his record in terms of bringing peace,
:24:12. > :24:17.reconciling everybody, in terms of allowing this economic development
:24:17. > :24:22.that is taking place in only ten years. Let's only judge him in the
:24:22. > :24:29.ten years we have had peace in Angola. I think the democratic
:24:29. > :24:33.process in Angola will ring the changes necessary. Why should