:00:06. > :00:14.have been killed. Now latest time for HARDtalk. --
:00:14. > :00:18.now it is time for HARDtalk. Politics can be a cruel business
:00:18. > :00:23.and nobody knows that better than my guest today, Britain's former
:00:23. > :00:28.Foreign Secretary, David Miliband. He was hot favourite to lead the
:00:28. > :00:32.Labour Party after its 2010 election defeat, but he lost out to
:00:32. > :00:37.his own brother Ed Miliband. His steady rise to the political summit
:00:37. > :00:40.was halted but he remains a Labour MP and still makes carefully timed
:00:40. > :00:50.interventions in foreign policy and national politics. Without the
:00:50. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:18.trappings of power, how does David David Miliband, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:18. > :01:23.Thank you. Last time we spoke you were Foreign Secretary. Now you're
:01:23. > :01:28.not. You still travel the world but do not exercise the same power. Is
:01:28. > :01:32.that frustrating? Of course. Power is frustrating but the absence of
:01:32. > :01:39.it is absolutely frustrating. This is a time of enormous change around
:01:39. > :01:43.the world and it is a time when one is frankly wanting to have a chance
:01:43. > :01:46.to put one's values into practice and to try to make a difference.
:01:46. > :01:51.Interesting you put it like that. The Arab Spring has unfolded over
:01:51. > :01:56.the last year. You have been watching it and commenting on it.
:01:56. > :02:00.Do you believe right now, when we look at Syria to start with, when
:02:00. > :02:05.we look at how western governments are responding to the challengers,
:02:05. > :02:09.that they're getting it right? think Syria is a tough one. The
:02:09. > :02:14.catalyst for change is the Arab Spring, but it is much more than
:02:14. > :02:19.that. It is about the danger that Syria will become the new Lebanon
:02:19. > :02:24.war for a European audience, the new Bosnia. It's the case in
:02:24. > :02:30.lesbian and Bosnia was not just of sectarian street by street fighting.
:02:30. > :02:34.It was also about regional powers playing out their power games in
:02:34. > :02:38.these two plants, Lebanon and Bosnia. That is the danger in Syria
:02:38. > :02:42.today. Although the Arab Spring was the catalyst, it is now about it
:02:42. > :02:46.much more than an issue of the people against the Government.
:02:46. > :02:50.You're pointing to the huge strategic significance, but let's
:02:50. > :02:55.focus on the immediate humanitarian significance. What we are seeing
:02:55. > :02:59.day after day are Syrian security forces shelling, sniping at
:02:59. > :03:08.civilians, killing dozens a day. We believe the death toll may be
:03:08. > :03:10.beyond 7,000 now. We know four years western governments have been
:03:10. > :03:20.committed to this so-called responsibility to protect. What
:03:20. > :03:22.does that mean? Not just the UN. 180 countries around the world
:03:22. > :03:26.committed to the so-called responsibility to protect. What
:03:26. > :03:31.does it mean? There is a lot of buyers remorse. A lot of people who
:03:31. > :03:34.signed up to it are not willing to address it. There is a humanitarian
:03:34. > :03:39.crisis. You're quite right to call attention to the appalling
:03:39. > :03:45.slaughter going on. The prerequisite is to reunify the
:03:45. > :03:50.international community. Not just east versus West. Countries like
:03:50. > :03:56.the UK and the US are on one side. China and Russia on the other. The
:03:56. > :03:59.prerequisite is to reunify. Surely a humanitarian's first thought
:03:59. > :04:04.would be that the prerequisite is to save people's lives. That means
:04:04. > :04:07.doing something. My former colleague, the French Foreign
:04:07. > :04:10.Minister at the time, says the purpose of foreign policy is to
:04:10. > :04:14.stop people killing each other. You're right to bring passion and
:04:14. > :04:20.emotion to this. But it is not about photo opportunities for quick
:04:20. > :04:26.fixes. A very significant thing has happened but it has had far too
:04:26. > :04:28.little coverage. That is the appointment of Kofi Annan. Ince is
:04:28. > :04:38.the humanitarian crisis in a broader crisis. If there is one
:04:38. > :04:44.person in the world who has trust from diverse parties, Russia, the
:04:44. > :04:48.US, and Syria, it is Kofi Annan. It's his mission is incredibly a
:04:49. > :04:54.important to avoid the descent into full-scale Lebanese or Bosnian
:04:54. > :04:57.style civil war. That suggests you do not think anything can be done
:04:57. > :05:01.and will the deep divisions in the United Nations Security Council
:05:01. > :05:06.have been bridged. But there are other people, and I spoke last week
:05:06. > :05:10.to Senator John McCain bill is one of them, who say this. There are
:05:10. > :05:13.ways to get weapons into Syria. It is time we gave the opposition
:05:14. > :05:19.there the wherewithal to fight back and stop the slaughter. I agree
:05:19. > :05:25.with Hillary Clinton and not with John McCain on this. I remember the
:05:25. > :05:30.Charlie Wilson's war argument. The philosophy of my enemy's enemy is
:05:30. > :05:34.my friend can easily end you up in dangerous situations. But the
:05:34. > :05:39.thought from John McCain was this. Are we going to allow Russia and
:05:39. > :05:42.China to dictate our interventions when we know and we see the
:05:42. > :05:46.innocence -- that innocent civilians and being slaughtered.
:05:46. > :05:54.What should dictate interventions is whether those will make things
:05:54. > :05:59.better or worse. In my judgement, sending Western arms into Syria to
:05:59. > :06:04.support what on any account is a fragmented opposition. That does
:06:04. > :06:10.not pass the test of making the situation better. What about
:06:10. > :06:12.establishing humanitarian corridors? I gather that the UN
:06:12. > :06:15.Commissioner for Humanitarian Affairs is going to Syria. Anything
:06:15. > :06:22.like that that can establish corridors, safe zones is worthwhile,
:06:22. > :06:26.but let's remember, we need to stop the vile actions of the regime
:06:26. > :06:33.continuing. The key to that is to reunify the international community.
:06:33. > :06:36.People watching this will remember that you voted for the Iraq war.
:06:36. > :06:40.Your government support it of George Bush all the way through the
:06:40. > :06:44.Iraq war. Just to be clear about this, there was not a specific UN
:06:44. > :06:48.Security Council resolution supporting military intervention to
:06:48. > :06:58.topple Saddam Hussein. You support it. Why could you do that but now
:06:58. > :07:03.
:07:03. > :07:08.yuans is the first thing to be done here is to preach...? -- Bridge.
:07:08. > :07:12.may touch on Iran and later as well. Any Western intervention has to
:07:12. > :07:17.remember it is much easier to start a war than to end it. If we have
:07:17. > :07:22.learned anything over the last ten years it is how difficult it is to
:07:22. > :07:25.bring the wars to an end. That is the test. Are we going to be able
:07:25. > :07:32.to achieve a situation where we restore stability? I want to
:07:32. > :07:38.emphasise this. Syria is a country that does not just implode, it
:07:38. > :07:43.could explode. It could have consequences for the whole reason.
:07:43. > :07:47.We must seek action and also make sure there are actions are going to
:07:47. > :07:57.achieve the desired result. With respect we have talked about
:07:57. > :07:57.
:07:57. > :08:01.seeking action for many months. Can you as a recent former Foreign
:08:01. > :08:03.Secretary imagine any circumstances in which the British Government
:08:04. > :08:09.could sanction any sort of involvement in the Syria which
:08:09. > :08:15.involves establishing a safe haven before the UN Security Council is
:08:15. > :08:20.prepared to act? I was in China last week and told to leaders there.
:08:20. > :08:27.I have heard them say publicly and privately that the issue is getting
:08:27. > :08:31.the violence stopped. They point to violence on both sides. It is clear
:08:31. > :08:34.the vast amount of violence is coming from the regime. The regime
:08:34. > :08:39.is getting support from the divisions in the international
:08:39. > :08:43.community. That is what we have to overcome. It is also a case that
:08:43. > :08:46.the Bashar al-Assad regime has become a source of instability in
:08:46. > :08:55.the region, not a source of stability, which was always the
:08:55. > :08:57.argument. Just a thought on Russia. You are leading a series of
:08:57. > :09:00.influential foreign former secretaries and others who in the
:09:00. > :09:04.coming days will push for limited sanctions to be taken against
:09:04. > :09:10.Russian officials who are believed to be involved with the death in
:09:10. > :09:14.custody of a certain lawyer. You have referred in public statements
:09:14. > :09:17.to a culture of corruption and impunity in Vladimir Putin's Russia.
:09:17. > :09:23.If you want to work with the Russians diplomatically it does not
:09:23. > :09:29.seem to me you are going about it in a straightforward way. The two
:09:29. > :09:32.cases of internal change within Russia, where a democratic
:09:32. > :09:35.aspirations are clearly much more powerful than people on this
:09:35. > :09:40.programme might have guessed two or three months ago, remarkable scenes
:09:40. > :09:45.in Russia, and the external policy... Although I can see the
:09:45. > :09:50.link you are trying to make. can slag off Vladimir Putin's
:09:50. > :09:55.Russia as much as you like... not about doing that. We have got a
:09:55. > :10:01.clear principle. There needs to be due processes for all abuses of
:10:01. > :10:06.political and other rights. And 37- year-old lawyer who exposed
:10:06. > :10:10.millions of dollars of tax fraud particularly died after 11 months
:10:10. > :10:14.in Russian custody. That is the sort of issue that if we're not
:10:14. > :10:22.willing to speak up about we get right week called skipper Chris. We
:10:22. > :10:27.should speak up about it. Russia is relevant. You said you do not think
:10:27. > :10:33.talk of war is at all helpful. We have heard a lot about talk of war.
:10:33. > :10:38.We here in Washington and Israel. Are you suggesting that approach to
:10:38. > :10:46.Iran and its nuclear ambitions is wrong? The danger is we sleepwalk
:10:46. > :10:50.into a war in and with Iran, a war that stretches far beyond the talk
:10:50. > :10:56.we see in the newspapers of a quote unquote strike. We're talking about
:10:56. > :11:01.a declaration of war on Iran that could become Avriel conflagration
:11:01. > :11:05.in the region. I support that and Iran should abide by its
:11:05. > :11:09.international commitments under the treaty which is not to become a
:11:09. > :11:13.sponsor of a nuclear weapons state. It has a right to civilian nuclear
:11:13. > :11:18.power but not for that programme to leak into their weapons programme.
:11:18. > :11:21.Have we prevent that happening? If we try to humiliate the Iranians in
:11:21. > :11:27.submissions I do not believe they will get there. If we simply offer
:11:27. > :11:31.them incentives it will not work. It has to be a dual track strategy
:11:31. > :11:35.of sanctions but also we have to give them a way out with honour
:11:35. > :11:39.that allows them to stop the nuclear weapons site of their
:11:39. > :11:43.programme, which they of course publicly deny. Yes to sanctions but
:11:43. > :11:49.would you agree with another former Labour Secretary, Jack Straw, who
:11:49. > :11:55.say the idea of striking Iran militarily was nuts. The viewer
:11:55. > :12:00.saying would it be nuts to attack Iran now, I agree it would. -- if
:12:00. > :12:04.you are saying. I do not support an attack on Iran now. If you're
:12:04. > :12:09.saying, should we will things out or not, you cannot do that. We have
:12:09. > :12:13.to say we have a clear goal, a peaceful resolution to this dispute.
:12:13. > :12:18.The tragedy is, not that diplomacy has failed, but that we have not
:12:18. > :12:22.found the conditions under which it can succeed. President Obama did
:12:22. > :12:28.something important. He said he would seek to engage the Iranian
:12:28. > :12:34.regime. He did so in two letters to the Supreme Leader. It fell victim
:12:34. > :12:37.to two things. One was divisions in the regime. Secondly, to the green
:12:37. > :12:42.revolution in Iran which put a block on all engagement with the
:12:42. > :12:45.outside world. We have to restart that level of bilateral and
:12:45. > :12:48.multilateral engagement with the Iranians. Interesting that you talk
:12:49. > :12:55.about President Obama. Maybe there are questions about the consistency
:12:55. > :13:00.of some of his foreign policies. Les Stocker that Afghanistan. --
:13:00. > :13:05.let's talk about. We heard from the Defence Secretary that they were
:13:05. > :13:09.aiming to withdraw troops and see the end of all combat activities by
:13:09. > :13:15.2013. Is there are certain incoherence? I don't think
:13:15. > :13:22.incoherence but I am worried that different NATO countries are
:13:22. > :13:28.announcing different timetables for their end of their combat
:13:28. > :13:32.operations. What is it? It is different for different countries.
:13:32. > :13:39.It is important that we don't have an end date. There is endless talk
:13:39. > :13:44.of an end date. What you need in Afghanistan is an endgame. It has
:13:44. > :13:48.to be internal and regional. I'm worried when I hear people in
:13:48. > :13:55.Washington saying, not in the administration, but outside, that
:13:55. > :14:02.we should have great links with Pakistan. It's are you prepared to
:14:02. > :14:08.say that he your three years as Foreign Secretary were years that
:14:08. > :14:12.foreign policy failed? That is not entirely right. In respect...
:14:12. > :14:18.I should explain. It has failed in this sense that if you believe many
:14:18. > :14:23.on the ground, the end result in Afghanistan is going to be a
:14:23. > :14:27.settlement in which the Taliban plays a key role in the future of
:14:27. > :14:33.the country. We have been sacrificing men and material for
:14:33. > :14:37.years to try to prevent that. What we have done is sacrificing
:14:37. > :14:40.men and material in order to prevent the circumstances in which
:14:41. > :14:43.the Taliban could roll over the government in Afghanistan and
:14:43. > :14:50.established as safe haven for Al- Qaeda. That is the important thing.
:14:50. > :14:58.I spent three years arguing with the Bush administration that they
:14:58. > :15:03.had to be an internal political settlement that included those who
:15:03. > :15:08.supported the Taliban but not only them. There are many factions. To
:15:08. > :15:13.achieve that you need the region engaged as well. I take that point.
:15:13. > :15:19.When Paddy Ashdown noticed a thing... We try to get him to pay
:15:19. > :15:25.it a big role. He says, the truth is, we have to swallow the bitter
:15:25. > :15:30.pill. The Taliban will be crucial. I have said that as Foreign
:15:30. > :15:36.Secretary and I say it afterwards. The opinion polling suggest they
:15:36. > :15:39.have about six-10%. What is the right that any British politician
:15:39. > :15:49.has today to send young men and women dare to risk their lives for
:15:49. > :15:53.a war that frankly cannot achieve The war is there to ensure that our
:15:53. > :16:01.Creator are not able to launch... They are not a factor in
:16:01. > :16:05.Afghanistan. Why are we spending more men -- sending more man?
:16:06. > :16:10.Afghanistan and Pakistan are linked. But everyone knows that to get
:16:10. > :16:16.stability in a Afghanistan, you need stability in Pakistan. And
:16:16. > :16:22.vice-versa. If we only do the military side on the Afghanistan
:16:22. > :16:27.side of the border, it will not work. Can we turn our eyes in what
:16:27. > :16:33.towards the UK. You have for years been a key player in the Labour
:16:33. > :16:37.Party. Chief policy exert -- adviser to Tony Blair. Your words
:16:37. > :16:43.matter in your party. I would like to quote to a poll from a few weeks
:16:43. > :16:49.ago. One in five people think a Labour government right now what do
:16:49. > :16:55.a better job of managing the UK economy than the Conservative Party.
:16:55. > :17:01.It has a 10 point lead in the best policies on managing the economy.
:17:01. > :17:05.We are in a post-election period. The first two years after a general
:17:05. > :17:09.election. The Labour Party has had to lick its wounds and rebuild
:17:09. > :17:14.itself. It is a big battle to recover from being a battle for --
:17:14. > :17:18.from being an officer at the time of a global crisis. We were in
:17:18. > :17:25.office at the time and we are having to rebuild ourselves on that
:17:25. > :17:30.basis. Is it time for the leaders of the Labour Party, your younger
:17:30. > :17:36.brother, is it time for him and for others to say, we were wrong in
:17:36. > :17:44.several key respects of economic policy making? They have said that.
:17:44. > :17:47.he has never said that. He said they did not regulate the financial
:17:47. > :17:52.industry in the right way and the financial sector became too big.
:17:52. > :17:57.But he has never said he allowed the state to grow to be get too
:17:57. > :18:02.expensive. That is a different question. I think he is right to
:18:02. > :18:09.say that the systemic regulation of the financial system was not done
:18:09. > :18:13.right on a global scale. Not in the ten years up to 2008. But all
:18:13. > :18:19.progressive politicians in western Europe have got a fundamental
:18:19. > :18:24.question to address which is, we're out of power in 23 of 27 European
:18:24. > :18:28.countries. We have to address questions of wealth-creation, the
:18:28. > :18:33.type of society we are Cup becoming -- we are becoming, and the
:18:33. > :18:40.political system we need to develop. Yo Yought about this a lot.
:18:40. > :18:45.You have written about it. You said, the big state is a political
:18:45. > :18:48.dividend for Labour. What we have right now is a Conservative-led
:18:48. > :18:58.government which is committed to reducing the percentage of GDP
:18:58. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:03.national output from 47% to 41%. Presumably you welcome that.
:19:03. > :19:08.think they are doing great damage to our economy and society. There
:19:08. > :19:13.is a massive row about what they are doing. Anyone who looks at the
:19:13. > :19:17.economic data will see that the Masons economic renewal has been
:19:17. > :19:21.completely snuffed out. We are looking at a situation where under
:19:22. > :19:28.Conservative rule British income per head will not reach 2002 levels
:19:28. > :19:36.until 2016. They are failing. are not addressing my point. The
:19:36. > :19:41.intellectual flow of Tony Blair and Labour having to move away from a
:19:41. > :19:46.big state philosophy actually quite in tune with many of the reforms
:19:46. > :19:52.being undertaken by this government. It is true that the Conservatives
:19:52. > :19:57.were blitzed in the '90s by Tony Blair and others who pushed them
:19:57. > :20:01.out of the centre ground. They are having to respond. On any issue
:20:01. > :20:07.which goes to the heart of the British Social Contract, Howells,
:20:07. > :20:15.the Conservatives are in danger of breaking it. -- health. It is
:20:15. > :20:20.significant. The right is not peddling many solutions as well.
:20:21. > :20:25.don't want to give too many poll results to, but right now, the
:20:25. > :20:32.British public is happy to back the Conservative approach. Do you
:20:32. > :20:38.believe that it is currently making any mistakes? Let me make common
:20:38. > :20:41.ground with the Labour had an terrible election loss. The test of
:20:42. > :20:46.it will come the next general election. I think Ed Miliband is
:20:46. > :20:51.leaving the party with conviction, energy and strife. -- leading the
:20:51. > :20:57.party. But there are two keys to win back the confidence of the
:20:57. > :21:01.British public. One, we show them we understand why they voted us out.
:21:01. > :21:06.Second, we show them we are developing new ideas for the future
:21:06. > :21:12.of Britain. That is a project that my brother is leading. A what would
:21:12. > :21:16.she have done differently? I will not get into that because I know it
:21:16. > :21:20.is any intellectual programme editors watched around the world
:21:20. > :21:24.but some people might make a little bit of mischief about an
:21:24. > :21:28.alternative scenario for the last year and a half. When you give an
:21:28. > :21:32.answer like that, you have been politically neutered. It is
:21:32. > :21:37.difficult for you to give important opinions about the future of your
:21:37. > :21:41.company because you are worried that every sneeze, everybody
:21:41. > :21:47.gesture is going to be used between you and your brother. Is that the
:21:47. > :21:54.weight you feel? More-or-less, yes. I don't want to be part of a daily
:21:54. > :21:59.soap opera. I was in these are very studio head one of the interviewers
:21:59. > :22:04.said that they like soap opera for the media. It means you can't have
:22:04. > :22:07.a political career in this country. It means I create a leadership
:22:07. > :22:12.academy for training at Labour members and supporters to make
:22:12. > :22:18.change around the country. I su suparty at universities
:22:18. > :22:24.and elsewhere to make sure we we built at the grassroots. You do a
:22:24. > :22:28.lot of speaking but yacht voting attendance record is around 40%. --
:22:28. > :22:33.your voting attendance. You seem to be less committed to the politics
:22:33. > :22:39.than you were. You will have seen in the arts as I have given in the
:22:40. > :22:44.last few minutes... There is a passion in what I do in politics.
:22:44. > :22:49.As I go around the country nurturing Labour at the Ritz, you
:22:49. > :22:53.see that passion for Labour and for Britain. -- at the roots. The great
:22:53. > :23:02.causes that brought me into politics at the first place, in a
:23:02. > :23:06.just -- injustice, inequality, they big hit in the last 18 months but I
:23:06. > :23:12.am getting up off the floor. wonder if your heart is still in
:23:12. > :23:17.politics. You are making a lot of money on the speaker says that --
:23:17. > :23:25.speaker circuit. It adds up to a whole head of a lot of money, more
:23:25. > :23:29.than you could ever make as a backbench politicians. My driver
:23:29. > :23:34.his meaning, not money. What drives me is making a difference to think
:23:34. > :23:39.that I care about. I will not apologise to broadening my
:23:39. > :23:45.experience. I will not apologise for helping a company that wants to
:23:45. > :23:49.make an economic difference in Pakistan. All for broadening and
:23:49. > :23:54.deepening my understanding and my ability to contribute to public
:23:54. > :23:59.affairs. I think it is the right thing to do it. Are you preparing
:23:59. > :24:05.yourself for when Ed Miliband has gone, whatever the circumstances,
:24:05. > :24:11.for another bid to lead the Labour Party? No, I am passionate about my