:00:11. > :00:14.Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:14. > :00:19.Turkey is a rising power in a strategically vital region, but
:00:19. > :00:25.does it have the ability to shape events beyond its borders?
:00:25. > :00:28.Officials in an Karen mac would like to see turkey inside the EU
:00:28. > :00:36.and provide a leadership in the Middle East. But both goals
:00:36. > :00:42.remained elusive. My guess today is Turkey's Minister for the EU,
:00:42. > :00:52.Egemen Bagis. Turkey is flexing its muscle, but is it having the
:00:52. > :00:56.
:00:56. > :01:02.desired affect? Egemen Bagis, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:02. > :01:07.Good to be back. Turkey's message to Europe for a long time now has
:01:07. > :01:10.been simple: We are a key regional power and we have major influence
:01:10. > :01:15.across the Middle East. But if we look at what is happening in your
:01:15. > :01:20.neighbour, Syria, today, that message does not seem to hold true.
:01:20. > :01:24.Well, look at what is happening in the Arab Spring today. Syria is a
:01:24. > :01:29.source of inspiration. People who risked their lives in Egypt,
:01:29. > :01:34.Tunisia, Libya. They wanted to turn their country like Turkey. They
:01:34. > :01:37.look at Turkey and they think, look at these Turks. They have democracy,
:01:37. > :01:41.they have human rights. They have opposition, they have government,
:01:41. > :01:46.they have laid the unions, they have NGOs. Yet they have the same
:01:46. > :01:50.culture as we do. They live in the same geography. If they can do it,
:01:50. > :01:54.why can't we? And that has been a very important question for them,
:01:54. > :01:58.because for the last ten years, Turkey's democracy has been getting
:01:58. > :02:03.stronger. Our Prime Minister has been re-elected by his people with
:02:03. > :02:07.an increased margin of vote ratio for the third time, and he has
:02:07. > :02:10.tripled per-capita income in this country. He has made his country
:02:10. > :02:18.much more modern, much more liveable, much richer, and much
:02:18. > :02:22.more transparent. All that has an influence throughout the region.
:02:22. > :02:29.it an influence? Maybe it is an inspiration, but when you look at
:02:29. > :02:33.what is happening in your immediate neighbour today, in Syria, your
:02:33. > :02:37.government has sent a clear message to the Assad regime, saying that in
:02:37. > :02:42.effect it is time for you to go. The way you have treated you people
:02:42. > :02:47.is unacceptable. We will take all measures we can fall further
:02:47. > :02:52.democratic reform in Syria. And it has made no difference. As we did
:02:52. > :02:57.in Tunisia, and look at what has happened. You most immediate
:02:57. > :03:00.neighbour. It has made no difference. But people still know
:03:00. > :03:07.that if things could change in Libya, if things could change in
:03:07. > :03:11.Egypt, things could definitely changed in Syria as well. It is not
:03:11. > :03:15.the Syrian President to is stopping, it is the Security Council of the
:03:15. > :03:19.United Nations. Some of the permanent preservation -- permanent
:03:20. > :03:24.representatives have not given him the necessary measures. I think we
:03:24. > :03:26.need to work with our friends in the United Nations. We need to show
:03:27. > :03:33.that the international community is united and it will not look the
:03:33. > :03:39.other way when a regime is killing its own people. If we cannot accept
:03:39. > :03:42.the government bombarding its own cities, killing its own people.
:03:42. > :03:47.you cannot accept it, the question becomes, what are you prepared to
:03:47. > :03:51.do to stop it? Build an international consensus. Any action
:03:51. > :03:55.has to be multinational. We are always against unique natural
:03:55. > :03:59.actions against other countries. Turkey should not act alone,
:03:59. > :04:04.neither should the UK, or the US, or Russia or China. But common
:04:04. > :04:08.sense has to prevail. We have to sit together, look at the
:04:08. > :04:12.opportunities, look at what is available and convince the
:04:12. > :04:17.leadership in Syria they are on the wrong part. Let's get practical for
:04:17. > :04:21.a moment. We will come back to the UN, but on a practical level, what
:04:21. > :04:25.we see right now our Syrian forces besieging Homs. We see a
:04:25. > :04:29.humanitarian crisis. We see dozens of civilians reported dead over
:04:29. > :04:34.months and months. The question for you in Syria is partly one of
:04:34. > :04:39.practicality. Argue, for example, prepared to see weapons flow across
:04:39. > :04:42.your border from Turkey into the hands of the Syrian rebel forces?
:04:42. > :04:50.It depends how that decision is made. If one country claims on
:04:50. > :04:53.their rain that they have the right to flow weapons, it is not logical.
:04:53. > :04:58.The Syrians have accused you of turning a blind eye to weapons
:04:58. > :05:04.going across your border for months. Syrians have been planed the blame
:05:04. > :05:10.game for quite a while. Syria has been harbouring PKK terrorism for
:05:11. > :05:14.decades. In recent years they had started to behave. Now they are
:05:14. > :05:18.blaming that Turkey is behind this organisation, or that organisation,
:05:18. > :05:22.this is totally false. What Turkey wants to see his piece in the
:05:22. > :05:26.neighbourhood. We have a saying in Turkish. If your neighbour's house
:05:26. > :05:30.is on fire and you do not put it out, but fire will eventually burn
:05:30. > :05:36.down your own home. Now we are trying to prevent fires. We want
:05:36. > :05:44.stability and democracy and freedom for all. We do not want to fight,
:05:44. > :05:47.we do not want wars. Your government has talked about a
:05:47. > :05:50.peacekeeping force. There has been a suggestion that you might be
:05:50. > :05:55.proactive in that, other with some leading Arab nations, to make a
:05:55. > :05:59.sort of regional force that might go into Syria. What sort of
:05:59. > :06:03.practical steps have you taken to making that happen? The first
:06:03. > :06:09.practical step was to accept refugees. We are accepting many
:06:09. > :06:15.refugees who have fled from Syria. Up to 20,000 Syrians have found a
:06:15. > :06:19.safe haven in Syria. We have one cab city where more than 8,000
:06:19. > :06:26.people have been provided with shelter, food, schools, health
:06:26. > :06:30.needs. We are doing our best to help them, as their neighbour. Many
:06:30. > :06:33.of our citizens have blood relations in Syria. We have been
:06:33. > :06:38.living in the same geography for centuries. We care about these
:06:38. > :06:41.people. We would like Syria to have their own territorial integrity, to
:06:41. > :06:49.have their own democracy, to have their own richness and to live
:06:49. > :06:55.happily. We are not after a war, we are not after anybody else's energy
:06:55. > :06:59.resources or banned. We just want them to be happy. I understand that.
:06:59. > :07:03.But the reality is that nobody in Syria at the moment appears to be
:07:03. > :07:08.living happily. The UN Security Council Avenue appears to be closed
:07:08. > :07:11.off for now. China and Russia, for the time being, are clearly not
:07:11. > :07:17.going to allow resolution which allows any sort of international
:07:17. > :07:23.intervention. Then we need to convince them what the other option
:07:23. > :07:26.is to stop the bloodshed. So you are saying that Turkey will not,
:07:26. > :07:30.even with partners in the Arab world, will not undertake any sort
:07:30. > :07:34.of intervention without an United Nations Security Council
:07:34. > :07:38.resolution? I am not taking anything of the table. Everything
:07:38. > :07:41.is on the table. We need to discuss in the international community,
:07:41. > :07:46.with our neighbours in Syria, in the region with our Arab neighbours,
:07:46. > :07:51.and we need to find a win-win solution to the problem. Because
:07:51. > :07:54.people are dying. There is bloodshed and there was a sick
:07:54. > :07:59.mentality that is killing their own citizens. And we need to stop this.
:07:59. > :08:04.What it takes is, we need to discuss. And we cannot find that
:08:04. > :08:10.solution here on HARDtalk. That, we need to find in NATO or the UN and
:08:10. > :08:14.in international circles. Your message, the Turkish government's
:08:14. > :08:19.message to Bashar al-Assad, is that he has to go now. And you also say
:08:19. > :08:24.that he has to face justice. He has to face some sort of International
:08:24. > :08:27.Criminal Court or some sort of war crimes tribunal? If he thinks he
:08:27. > :08:35.has enough popularity with his own people then he can reform his
:08:35. > :08:40.country. He could have fair elections. And if his people elect
:08:40. > :08:43.him, fine. But if not, he has to respect the will of his own people.
:08:43. > :08:51.He must respect the democratic outcome after the reforms which she
:08:51. > :08:55.has been promising for decades and which he has not delivered.
:08:55. > :08:59.started this interview speaking about Syria even though you are the
:08:59. > :09:07.European -- the Turkish minister for European affairs. Thank you for
:09:07. > :09:14.reminding me. LAUGHTER. But they say that you are rising power which
:09:14. > :09:18.Europe needs, that Turkey is a rising power. Europe is preoccupied
:09:18. > :09:23.with so many of its own problems that it cannot see the light. It is
:09:23. > :09:26.going through the turmoil of economic crisis, there is an
:09:26. > :09:30.upcoming energy crisis, many politicians are terrified they will
:09:31. > :09:37.lose power at the next elections. The commission is trying to keep
:09:37. > :09:43.the Union together. So in that confusion, Turkey is trying to say,
:09:43. > :09:46.hold on tight. Turkey is coming to your rescue. We can help. Turkey
:09:46. > :09:51.coming to the rescue? The fact is that nobody wants to see Turkey
:09:51. > :09:54.come through the door right now. You must be very frustrated, it has
:09:54. > :09:59.been seven years since the official membership process began. What you
:09:59. > :10:03.have at the moment is a completely frozen process. Only half of the
:10:03. > :10:07.so-called chapters, the very things which must be gone through to tick
:10:07. > :10:11.the boxes for Turkey's convergence with EU standards, they have not
:10:11. > :10:15.been opened up. Now a new chapter at all has opened in the last year.
:10:15. > :10:22.France has blocked all negotiation about meaningful accession
:10:22. > :10:25.processes. You are stuck. Would you accept that? If you look at the
:10:25. > :10:28.process from a negotiation point of view, you might think it is frozen.
:10:28. > :10:33.But if you look at the process in terms of Turkey's reforms for
:10:33. > :10:37.democracy, for conspiracy, for prosperity, for self-confidence,
:10:37. > :10:46.the reforms are faster than ever. Let me give you a few examples.
:10:46. > :10:56.After a gap of 80 years, the Greek Orthodox community held services at
:10:56. > :10:59.
:10:59. > :11:03.Spooner monastery. -- Smyrna. For the first time since the founding
:11:03. > :11:06.of the Republic, we have seen a President who has been to a place
:11:06. > :11:11.of worship of the other white community. In a country where
:11:11. > :11:15.people were afraid to admit that they were Kurds 20 years ago, we
:11:15. > :11:19.now have 24 hours of Kurdish broadcasting on state television.
:11:19. > :11:28.People of remark the region have been brought together by the Prime
:11:28. > :11:35.Minister, and he has announced new programmes for them. -- Roma. At
:11:35. > :11:45.the same time that France was trying to deport its robot people.
:11:45. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:49.-- Roma. You say you are reforming. Let me give you a few other
:11:49. > :11:54.examples which say that is not the case. Your relationship with Cyprus
:11:54. > :11:58.- and no progress whatsoever. In fact, you have defiantly refused to
:11:58. > :12:07.accept the euro that's demand that you open up your ports to Cypriot
:12:07. > :12:12.traffic. We are ready to do what! Hang on. You say that if Cyprus
:12:12. > :12:16.assumes the EU presidency, you will freeze relations with the entire EU.
:12:16. > :12:22.No, we will not freeze relations with the EU. We were just ignore
:12:22. > :12:26.their presidency. It is the same thing. No, it is not the same thing.
:12:26. > :12:30.We will continue our relationship with the EU and with the member
:12:30. > :12:35.states. But we cannot accept that a country we do not recognise will
:12:35. > :12:41.assume leadership of the hold union. I will tell you why. We are ready
:12:41. > :12:48.to open our air space and support to Greek Cypriot planes, provided
:12:48. > :12:55.as the EU provides its own decision. EU states unanimously agreed to put
:12:55. > :12:58.an end to the isolation of Cyprus, which means treating it cypress
:12:58. > :13:08.like Taiwan. Many countries do not recognise Taiwan but they still
:13:08. > :13:08.
:13:08. > :13:16.trade with Taiwan. But you have to accept the euro back as it is. And
:13:16. > :13:26.the EU as it is includes Cyprus. The only member state implementing
:13:26. > :13:26.
:13:26. > :13:30.this decision is southern Cyprus. Do you think it works for Turkey to
:13:30. > :13:35.issue threats to the European Union? For example, last year you
:13:35. > :13:39.said that when it came to the Cypriots beginning gas exploration
:13:39. > :13:43.activity in the offshore area around Cyprus, you said, it is for
:13:43. > :13:46.reasons like is that countries have warships. It is for reasons like is
:13:46. > :13:56.that we have the equipment and trained our may be. It almost
:13:56. > :13:57.
:13:57. > :14:04.sounds as though you are thinking Your country send warships all the
:14:04. > :14:08.way to Argentina, so did not blame us. You want to join the club.
:14:08. > :14:12.you want to join the club where there is then as? Do you want to
:14:12. > :14:16.join the club which implement its own decisions? The EU has to
:14:16. > :14:20.deliver on its promises. We have written guarantees. What is
:14:20. > :14:24.happening in terms of the drilling, they are drooling in not
:14:24. > :14:29.international waters. We have to find out who the oil and gas
:14:30. > :14:35.belongs to? Does it belong to Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, Egypt? It
:14:35. > :14:40.has not been decided. You say that Turkey has fundamentally changed.
:14:40. > :14:45.You gave me a list of examples. I say to you, never mind a Cyprus,
:14:45. > :14:51.when it comes to locking up journalists, when it comes to basic
:14:51. > :14:57.freedoms of expression, Turkey has not changed. Give me the real
:14:57. > :15:03.evidence. The Secretary General of the council in Europe, he was
:15:03. > :15:07.recently in Turkey, he said there a 16,000 cases, 1,000 of which
:15:07. > :15:13.concern media freedom. This has a chilling effect on freedom of
:15:13. > :15:19.expression in your country. There is no journalist who has been
:15:19. > :15:28.detained of his profession. But he caught journalists terrorists.
:15:28. > :15:32.There are some of them who carry journalistic cards who had been
:15:32. > :15:37.caught, robbing a bank. But they are not detained because of bribing
:15:37. > :15:42.-- writing their articles. There are journalists who had written
:15:42. > :15:48.much worse articles and they enjoy their right to continue doing that.
:15:48. > :15:52.The Americans are deeply concerned. One person said, how can there be
:15:52. > :15:59.intellectuals and journalists behind bars in a country that
:15:59. > :16:03.really values freedom? I would not like to see one intellectual behind
:16:03. > :16:08.any buy in any colic -- in any country. I would risk my own light
:16:08. > :16:13.for them to wrist -- express their views. But being a member of the
:16:13. > :16:17.media does not provide immunity to commit crimes. It sure does not in
:16:17. > :16:21.Turkey. If someone is caught while robbing a bank, is summer is caught
:16:21. > :16:26.while killing another, they are not going to get away just because they
:16:27. > :16:31.happen to be journalists. When you come to capitals like London, you
:16:31. > :16:38.talk to ministers about Turkey's continued determination to join the
:16:38. > :16:42.EU, does it can say knew that international observers see Turkey
:16:42. > :16:52.as 148 in a list of countries, in terms of the standards of a list of
:16:52. > :16:57.free press, it has now put pokie down to 89 out of 167 countries,
:16:57. > :17:04.when it comes down to basic democratic values. You are on the
:17:04. > :17:08.same level as Venezuela. We are trying to fix that. I am not proud.
:17:08. > :17:12.That is why we had introduced a judicial reform, that is why we are
:17:12. > :17:17.trying to changed our laws. That is something that we inherited from
:17:17. > :17:21.previous governments and we are trying to change that. We want the
:17:21. > :17:25.people to change the constitution, and 58% of the Society supported
:17:25. > :17:34.our demand for change. Only after that could wreak change the
:17:34. > :17:38.structure of the judicial branch. - - we could change. You have been
:17:38. > :17:42.saying for years that we are changing the judicial structure and
:17:42. > :17:48.it has not happened yet. Mike government has been in power for
:17:48. > :17:52.ten years. For the first 8.5 years, any time we attempted a judicial
:17:52. > :17:58.decision, the court stop us. They issued its decisions to stop and
:17:58. > :18:02.execution. Only after the referendum of 2010, could restart
:18:02. > :18:05.are making real changes in the judicial reform. Right now, there
:18:05. > :18:10.is a painting package in the Turkish parliament that is going to
:18:11. > :18:17.reduce the detention period that is going to release many of the people
:18:17. > :18:23.under detention. In 2005, the ratio of people in prisons was around 50-
:18:23. > :18:29.50. Right now it is down to 28%. Recently, we passed a law regarding
:18:29. > :18:38.bounced cheques, and 1,500 people were released. They are not
:18:38. > :18:43.detained any more. 13% of the workload of the court has now gone
:18:43. > :18:49.to mediators. But it is not just about the nitty-gritty of practical
:18:49. > :18:53.reform, of the judiciary, it is also to do with language, the way
:18:53. > :19:00.you deal with European member states. I'm thinking of France. You
:19:00. > :19:03.have a profound problem with France. You have a profound problem with
:19:03. > :19:08.the French parliament which took a decision to pass a new genocide law
:19:08. > :19:13.which included the idea that if people deny the Armenian genocide,
:19:13. > :19:18.bat will be a criminal offence in France. This is what the Prime
:19:18. > :19:23.Minister of your country responded. He said, this is the politics of
:19:23. > :19:28.racism and discrimination. Is that really what you think the French
:19:28. > :19:33.are about when it comes to the law? We think the French constitutional
:19:33. > :19:42.Court, who agreed with my prime minister, and they nullified that
:19:42. > :19:47.parliamentary decision. That law no longer exists. But the fact is,
:19:47. > :19:51.your Prime Minister is accusing France of being afraid of Turkey.
:19:51. > :19:54.They collected signatures to take it to the High Court, and the High
:19:55. > :20:03.Court agreed that the Bill is against the spirit of the French
:20:03. > :20:10.Revolution. Is France afraid of Turkey? Not France, some people in
:20:10. > :20:14.France are. Why on earth, after a difficult seven years, you at the
:20:14. > :20:18.heart of it tried to persuade Europe to let Turkey in, why do you
:20:18. > :20:25.continue with his, if you think that powerful forces in France are
:20:25. > :20:28.afraid of Turkey? When a French President gets up and says, a
:20:28. > :20:33.country that is aligned with the United States, a country that is
:20:33. > :20:38.not European, a country that does not -- should not be in Europe, he
:20:38. > :20:43.was not talking of Turkey, a French President name to Charles de Gaulle
:20:43. > :20:46.was talking about the United Kingdom. Many years ago. We now say
:20:46. > :20:51.the same argument used by some current French leaders against
:20:51. > :20:58.Turkey. If your country does not mind fighting back and trying to
:20:58. > :21:02.convince your neighbours to be a part of these grand peace project
:21:02. > :21:07.or the European Union, why should my country defer? Turkey is
:21:07. > :21:12.determined to be a part of the grandest piece project, which is
:21:12. > :21:19.caught the European Union. But it is yet a continental peace project.
:21:19. > :21:25.Turkey can turn it into a global peace project. The Prime Minister,
:21:25. > :21:29.when you went to Eton is here, Egypt Mac -- Libya en Egypt, there
:21:29. > :21:33.are many Western leaders who can go and talk about sex tourism and
:21:33. > :21:43.democracy, but there are not too many who can do both. -- secular
:21:43. > :21:49.society. The problem is you. That all these reasons why it is vital
:21:49. > :21:55.for Europe and Turkey to be inside the EU, 22% of Turks have trust in
:21:55. > :22:01.EU institutions, it was 51% are just a few years ago, Turks are
:22:01. > :22:04.losing trust, they are losing faith, and the fact that they are losing
:22:05. > :22:11.trust in an institution that is in economic crisis whereas your
:22:11. > :22:18.country is growing 8% per year. They are losing trust because of
:22:18. > :22:23.the narrow-minded statements by some European politicians. Europe
:22:23. > :22:28.may have a problem right now in terms of their economy, but 50% of
:22:28. > :22:35.my foreign trade is with Europe, 85% of foreign direct investment in
:22:35. > :22:39.Turkey has come from the EU. 60% of the 32 million tourists that is a
:22:39. > :22:43.turkey every year come from the EU. We do not have the right to say
:22:43. > :22:49.that it is Europe's problem. We have to help Europe solve the
:22:49. > :22:53.problem. For years, Turkey's big cell has
:22:53. > :22:56.been at the very beginning that it could be a regional power that
:22:56. > :23:02.Europe needs inside the club. The idea was that you had no problems
:23:03. > :23:07.with your neighbours. Obviously, that is not true any more. We have
:23:07. > :23:12.talked about Syria, the Iran, where the Iranians are supporting the
:23:13. > :23:15.Assad regime much to your dislike. We can talk about Israel where your
:23:15. > :23:20.relationship is in continue to decrease. You have plenty of
:23:20. > :23:25.hy would Europe want to have you come
:23:25. > :23:30.in when you actually now cannot even dinner but the neighbourhood?
:23:30. > :23:36.We can deliver the neighbourhood. We can fix the relations with the
:23:36. > :23:42.neighbours. It does not mean we will accept all kinds of atrocities
:23:42. > :23:49.that our neighbours provided to dead people. You overstretched when
:23:49. > :23:52.it came to Turkey's diplomatic reach. We want to transferred the
:23:52. > :23:57.stability, the piece, to the neighbourhood, and we can do it
:23:57. > :24:01.better up with the EU and E you can do it much better with Turkey.
:24:01. > :24:07.Today's turkey is much better out than yesterday's Turkey, and
:24:07. > :24:12.tomorrow will be even better. We are growing at 9%. We had a median
:24:12. > :24:16.age of 28 when the median age in Europe is 44. We had access to the