:00:08. > :00:12.option. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Ghana
:00:12. > :00:15.has been hailed as a shining example to all of Africa - a model
:00:15. > :00:18.of democracy, decent governance and responsible economic management in
:00:18. > :00:21.a continent struggling to fulfil its potential. But if Ghana looks
:00:21. > :00:25.like a success story to outsiders, how does it look to Ghanaians
:00:25. > :00:28.themselves? Nana Akufo-Addo is the leader of the main opposition party
:00:28. > :00:38.and candidate for president. I ask him if Ghana can use its resource
:00:38. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:19.wealth and inward investment to Nana Akufo-Addo, welcome to
:01:19. > :01:23.HARDtalk. Thank you for having me. This idea that Ghana is some kind
:01:23. > :01:27.of role model, does it make you feel proud? Or does it make you
:01:28. > :01:35.feel like we are misreading what is happening in Ghana? I think what it
:01:35. > :01:39.does for all us is gives us a certain sense of responsibility.
:01:39. > :01:49.The developments in Africa have a particular resonance for a
:01:49. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :01:57.donations. -- Ghanaians. The whole African project was very much our
:01:57. > :02:02.project. We are required to show ourselves as governing ourselves in
:02:02. > :02:07.an intelligent and modern manner. I think that is what the whole
:02:07. > :02:09.democratic movement of my country is about. You were the Leader of
:02:09. > :02:16.the Opposition and candidate for president at the end of this year -
:02:16. > :02:21.it puts you in a slightly awkward position, for example, when you had
:02:21. > :02:27.President Barack Obama come to your country in 2009 and to be extremely
:02:27. > :02:31.friendly to President John Atta Mills and say that, in his view,
:02:31. > :02:36.democracy was going well in Ghana. That is not necessarily what you
:02:36. > :02:40.want to hear, is it? I definitely would like to hear him touting our
:02:40. > :02:44.democratic credentials. I think that is important for the nation,
:02:44. > :02:49.not just one party or another. It is important for us. That has been
:02:49. > :02:53.a major issue in our history since independence, or whether or not we
:02:53. > :03:03.can have a stable democratic government. That matter has
:03:03. > :03:05.
:03:05. > :03:11.involved virtually all sections of the DNA and population. -- donation.
:03:11. > :03:17.Let me stop you there. You are confident of Dana's credentials.
:03:17. > :03:21.You are the candidate who, in 2008, was so infuriated by the outcome of
:03:21. > :03:25.the presidential elections that, for a while, you didn't accept the
:03:25. > :03:31.Electoral Commission's verdict. You threatened to challenge it in the
:03:31. > :03:35.courts. And no. What happened it is by the time the final verdict came
:03:35. > :03:39.- and if you remember the last election was in three parts, there
:03:39. > :03:42.was the first formal part, then the second round, and within the second
:03:42. > :03:47.round there was the third election - it was when the whole process was
:03:48. > :03:52.over that the announcement was made. We didn't hesitate. I believe the
:03:52. > :03:57.Electoral Commission made his declaration in the morning. Within
:03:57. > :04:00.2-3 hours of that I had accepted it and congratulate the winner.
:04:00. > :04:06.did, I think it is fair to say you did question the Electoral
:04:06. > :04:12.Commission for some time. Question - there were sufficient
:04:12. > :04:17.irregularities that tainted the process. In the end, our decision
:04:17. > :04:21.was that, no, democracy and stability, the unity of our nation,
:04:21. > :04:26.it requires that we accept the results in good faith and work for
:04:26. > :04:30.another day and that is what we did. The very day the announcement was
:04:30. > :04:33.made, within hours of the announcement I had gone on the
:04:33. > :04:37.radio and television to congratulate President John Atta
:04:37. > :04:41.Mills on his victory, however narrowly it was. And here we are
:04:41. > :04:50.four years later, it seems fighting another day will be a reality for
:04:50. > :04:53.you. Had you feel when MPs in your party say things like this "any
:04:53. > :04:59.ruling party macho man who steals a ballot box in the next election
:04:59. > :05:05.will be crushed to death. Anyone who tries to rig the vote will be
:05:05. > :05:10.killed". There is a lot of high- level political dialogue in Ghana.
:05:10. > :05:13.I think everywhere in the world... No, excuse me, if I made - when you
:05:14. > :05:18.speak to me about the way Ghana has established its democratic
:05:18. > :05:25.credentials, surely we need to get rid of extraordinarily inflammatory
:05:25. > :05:33.language like that? And that will progress over time. Ghanaian
:05:33. > :05:37.democracy is a relatively new phenomenon. There are 400-500 years
:05:37. > :05:44.of English democracy. That is not outback experience. We are getting
:05:44. > :05:54.there. Why do you use as a mantra for your election campaign, which
:05:54. > :05:57.
:05:57. > :06:00.you have already begun, wider use this phrase (INAUDIBLE). To be
:06:00. > :06:08.clear to people who do not understand, you seem to be adopting
:06:08. > :06:11.a very all or nothing approach, a fatalistic approach. Not at all. My
:06:11. > :06:15.attitude towards the 2008 elections and the way in which my party and I
:06:15. > :06:20.conducted ourselves would not have been the same. What we are trying
:06:20. > :06:23.to imply it is that the examples we have seen of how elections have
:06:23. > :06:30.been conducted under this administration leave quite a lot to
:06:30. > :06:35.be desired. We have had 2.5 by elections. All of them had been
:06:35. > :06:40.characterised by moments of violence or great tension. There
:06:40. > :06:43.have been victims of this violence. Up until today the President of
:06:43. > :06:52.outback country has not expressed any regret or remorse about these
:06:52. > :06:58.events. It was necessary for us to alert the country... You why using
:06:58. > :07:02.language about dying, or squashing... Largely because it is
:07:02. > :07:10.important also to get across. Make that that is not the way to go in
:07:10. > :07:14.our country which is trying to build a democracy - to go down the
:07:14. > :07:22.road of violence. Inevitably, violence begets violence. We do not
:07:22. > :07:26.want to go down that road. In 2008 our attitude towards politics and
:07:26. > :07:29.the ruling party at the time had been an all-or-nothing approach -
:07:29. > :07:34.maybe the events that occurred after the election would not have
:07:34. > :07:39.gone as smoothly as they did. We invited Obama to come to our
:07:39. > :07:44.country to praise us for the way we ruled. I believe that the end of
:07:45. > :07:49.the day all of us sat down and reflected on what we needed to do -
:07:49. > :07:53.we could make sure that the final result is a result that is in the
:07:53. > :07:58.interest of the peace and stability and progress of our people. Let's
:07:58. > :08:01.look at it another way. We go back to my opening question about
:08:01. > :08:08.Ghana's perceived success within Africa. I think many people have
:08:08. > :08:12.picked up on that theme, not just Barack Obama. The growth rates are
:08:12. > :08:16.extraordinary - 13% last year, 9% this year. You are predicted to be
:08:16. > :08:22.in the top ten global nations of growth in the next decade.
:08:22. > :08:26.Fantastic staff if you are Danae. Why did you say recently "what
:08:26. > :08:30.chance do we have as a nation if we churn out such appalling
:08:30. > :08:34.statistics? It Ghana was a country it would have been shut down".
:08:34. > :08:37.talking about the statistics of our educational system which is in a
:08:38. > :08:43.serious crisis. The young men and women of out that contrary to what
:08:43. > :08:47.going to school - by the time they enter secondary school, what we
:08:47. > :08:53.call senior high-school, already 50% of them find themselves out on
:08:53. > :08:59.the streets without any serious educational background, without any
:08:59. > :09:04.serious skills. Largely because of the failure of the system to
:09:04. > :09:09.accommodate and provide opportunity for them. That is a major issue for
:09:09. > :09:14.the future of our country. Despite these statistics, on the surface
:09:14. > :09:18.they sound excellent, but they are about the influence of oil on
:09:18. > :09:22.outback national accounts. You are suggesting that this could be a
:09:22. > :09:27.classic African story of amazing resource potential being squandered
:09:27. > :09:30.by mismanagement? The potential is there. The potential is there.
:09:30. > :09:40.that case, would you plead guilty to being party to that management
:09:40. > :09:41.
:09:41. > :09:46.when you were at the senior minister from 2002... My period in
:09:46. > :09:50.office saw a dramatic expansion of the Ghanaian authorities. It also
:09:50. > :09:58.sought a ballooning deficit. You squandered money like no-one ever
:09:58. > :10:02.before. You're left office with a deficit budget of 13-14%. I just
:10:02. > :10:06.read the latest World Bank report... Those figures have been
:10:07. > :10:12.challenged.... This is just because you don't like them.
:10:12. > :10:18.necessarily. The World Bank is not the Bible, they also make mistakes.
:10:18. > :10:21.(LAUGHTER). My point is that you don't have to take my word on the
:10:21. > :10:27.deficit, look at inflation, when you left off as it was in double
:10:27. > :10:33.digits, close to 20%. At least this government has cut back. When we
:10:33. > :10:37.got into office it was around 30%. 6-7 years before it was around 40%.
:10:37. > :10:41.Yes, the current government has started again. They have hard it
:10:41. > :10:47.because they have the foundation we build. It was at 42% when we came
:10:47. > :10:52.into office in the year 2001. Runaway inflation and appreciation
:10:52. > :10:56.of the currency. All of those efforts were made to correct those
:10:56. > :10:59.before we left. That is not to say that the work was completed, it is
:10:59. > :11:04.a work in progress and it continues to be a work-in-progress. It seems
:11:04. > :11:07.to me that what is important about the last few years in Ghana is that
:11:07. > :11:12.the international community, thinking about the World Bank, the
:11:12. > :11:17.IMF and the Chinese government as well, it all look at what is
:11:17. > :11:21.happening in Ghana and they have given its approval by lending and
:11:21. > :11:24.investing in a massive weight inside or country. It seems to me
:11:24. > :11:27.that whatever you say about the current administration, the
:11:27. > :11:33.international view is that his economic management is worth
:11:33. > :11:37.investing in. We have oil. We never had it before. We now have oil in
:11:37. > :11:43.commercial quantities. It is being developed by companies that know
:11:44. > :11:47.what they are doing. The first oil was really the biggest
:11:47. > :11:53.responsibility for this dramatic expansion of our national accounts.
:11:53. > :11:58.Are you sure? Positive. It is going to be sued, because you have up to
:11:58. > :12:02.700 million barrels in the ocean just off you're sure. We're talking
:12:02. > :12:05.about death has its, economic management. Right now you are only
:12:05. > :12:12.pumping about 70,000 barrels a day. You can't say everything that has
:12:12. > :12:17.been achieved in the last four years is all about oil revenue.
:12:17. > :12:21.revenues last year were over $400 million. There is gold, there is
:12:21. > :12:28.go-go, there are other things. What I'm saying to you - if you look at
:12:28. > :12:32.China for example, $3 billion in grants and credit lines plus
:12:32. > :12:38.another $13 billion... Are very welcome, very welcomed... So you
:12:38. > :12:41.have no problem with that? I think the Chinese interest in outback
:12:41. > :12:45.country is a very healthy one and it is one that we are very
:12:45. > :12:52.comfortable with and we have to be satisfied that we get value for
:12:52. > :13:00.money in terms of these investments. There are serious questions about
:13:00. > :13:03.whether the loans were structured in Parliament... Parliament has
:13:03. > :13:07.insisted that much better negotiations could have taken place
:13:07. > :13:11.over the money and how it was to be spent. What about the quality of
:13:11. > :13:16.the infrastructure work that the Chinese offered? In Angola there
:13:16. > :13:19.are many people talking about roads being washed away and hospital
:13:19. > :13:23.subsiding because they were poorly built. This is part of the argument
:13:23. > :13:29.that making sure we get value for money. That is why there has been
:13:29. > :13:34.hesitation on our part. I think this is something we should make
:13:34. > :13:39.very clear - we welcome the interest of everybody in the
:13:39. > :13:43.development of the Ghanaian economy. How we handle that interest and how
:13:43. > :13:50.it plays to the fate of the majority of our people, that is our
:13:50. > :13:54.concern. I'm interest in the ways you have hedged some of your
:13:54. > :13:58.approval in what the Chinese have done in your country. If you are
:13:58. > :14:05.darn a's new president, will you allow them to build up a
:14:05. > :14:13.significant stake in Europe oil and mineral industry's? If it appears
:14:13. > :14:18.to us to be mutually beneficial, why not. That is a yes? Yes. We
:14:18. > :14:23.will see how history plays itself out. People have to vote for you,
:14:23. > :14:29.they would like to know how much you would like to let China by into
:14:29. > :14:33.your economy. It will be sorted on a case-by-case basis. But they have
:14:33. > :14:37.a controlling stake... We do not want anyone to have a controlling
:14:37. > :14:44.stake, we do not want to be the poor want of any power, whether it
:14:44. > :14:51.is left, right, Chinese, American or anyone else. We want our economy
:14:51. > :14:58.to be in their hand of DNA and people. You look across your own
:14:58. > :15:03.continent -- Ghanaian, and you fear that people have too much control
:15:03. > :15:10.the economy. I think what we need to be clear about is that so long
:15:10. > :15:13.as we continue to be a raw material producing country, changing the
:15:13. > :15:17.destination of the export of those raw material does not necessarily
:15:17. > :15:24.change the basic facts of our economies. It is the changing of
:15:24. > :15:29.those basic facts that is the critical challenge for us. Seeing
:15:29. > :15:32.China becoming the destination of preference for the export of
:15:32. > :15:37.African role materials doesn't change the fact of the African
:15:37. > :15:40.economy. It is the fundamental nature of the African economy that
:15:40. > :15:50.we required to change if indeed we are going to bring prosperity to
:15:50. > :15:51.
:15:51. > :15:58.We will move away from raw material producing economies. That is the
:15:58. > :16:05.talent. To the extent, the investment of the Chinese, Japanese,
:16:05. > :16:12.French, British, it plays into that fundamental objective. I welcome it.
:16:12. > :16:19.To the extent that it tends to dilute or the euro way from that, I
:16:19. > :16:23.will be object. What we need to see established in our relations is...
:16:23. > :16:29.I got that point. But I have been reading some of your campaign
:16:29. > :16:33.speeches. You consistently accuse the other administration of
:16:33. > :16:38.overseeing corruption. It is fair to say that corruption has been a
:16:38. > :16:44.problem in your country for a long time. It goes back beyond the mils
:16:44. > :16:50.administration. But I look at the current government and what it has
:16:50. > :16:56.done, for example signing out the extractive industry transparency
:16:56. > :17:06.agreement. Introducing proposals for transparency in the auditing of
:17:06. > :17:11.contracts. It seems they are making a real effort. What are we left
:17:11. > :17:18.with? In the management of a petroleum revenues, our original
:17:18. > :17:24.position was that we should create a special Petroleum account outside
:17:24. > :17:29.the Consolidated Fund is so that we cannot look and track these
:17:29. > :17:33.revenues in an open and transparent manner. If you put the money
:17:33. > :17:38.directly into the Budget, the difficulty exists of finding out
:17:38. > :17:42.exactly how it plays out. That was a position that the government did
:17:42. > :17:49.not subscribe to. That we should create a special account which
:17:49. > :17:56.would enable the trekking to take place. Do you believe that as is
:17:56. > :18:01.the case in Nigeria, there is a danger that the discovery of major
:18:01. > :18:06.whale near a country could become a curse rather than a blessing?
:18:06. > :18:12.has to be a concern for all of us. The only way we can address it is
:18:12. > :18:18.with the current -- institutional arrangements that we make. It has
:18:18. > :18:24.to be a constant source of anxiety and worry. If we don't put in the
:18:24. > :18:33.proper mechanisms, the proper institutional arrangements, it
:18:33. > :18:37.could be a source for us off concerns. It should enable us to
:18:37. > :18:43.focus on the transformation of our economy. Why should the Ghanaian
:18:43. > :18:48.people believe you are any more committed to a transparent oil
:18:48. > :18:55.industry or transparency generally then the current administration?
:18:55. > :19:00.Your record as a justice minister does not suggest that your values
:19:00. > :19:07.were different. They are very different. We are talking about
:19:07. > :19:11.people. People who were at the very forefront of the struggle for
:19:11. > :19:18.democracy in Ghana. We want an open system of government. Accountable
:19:18. > :19:21.government. That has been at the very strongest driving force behind
:19:21. > :19:31.the political careers of many of us who are in the opposition. Making
:19:31. > :19:36.sure that our country can become one-party government, authoritarian.
:19:36. > :19:43.Open democratic government. The second is a record in government.
:19:43. > :19:47.Many of the measures that were put in place to ensure transparency...
:19:47. > :19:52.The procurement law. All of these were legislation that were began by
:19:52. > :20:02.me when I was Attorney General. It was creating the framework that
:20:02. > :20:07.would enable people. The first time the whistle-blowers that was tested
:20:07. > :20:12.in Ghana... They ended up in jail. But the greatest indictment of your
:20:12. > :20:19.government is the way in which he squandered money and left this huge
:20:19. > :20:24.hall in the budget deficit. That was a profound problem. I don't
:20:24. > :20:29.accept that proposition. I will tell you what the Ghanaian people
:20:30. > :20:33.seem to think, they want to know where exactly is the money going to
:20:33. > :20:39.come from the next time when you were in power for the extravagant
:20:39. > :20:47.promises you have made? You have offered free secondary schooling. I
:20:47. > :20:52.promise you say you will deliver. Absolutely. How much will it cost?
:20:52. > :21:00.That it is being done. You can't make a promise like that without
:21:00. > :21:04.knowing. You don't know how much it is going to be. I would sell the
:21:04. > :21:12.Ghanaian people before I tell you. I would prefer to make that
:21:12. > :21:18.statement to the people of Ghana. So you to know the cost? We do. We
:21:18. > :21:23.know have we are going to finance it. Well, how are you going to? You
:21:23. > :21:27.have to get teachers and new schools. All of it has been
:21:27. > :21:32.adequately costed. We believe the new revenues will help, a more
:21:32. > :21:36.efficient management of what we have now, gross of the Ghanaian
:21:36. > :21:40.economy. These are the three sources which are going to enable
:21:40. > :21:46.us to fulfil that promise. The promise has been solemnly made and
:21:46. > :21:50.is going to be kept. Not because it is a campaign promise. Because it
:21:50. > :21:56.is a necessity for the future of our country. To educate all our
:21:56. > :22:01.young people. Not to acquiesce in a situation whereby only segments of
:22:01. > :22:09.the community that have some money are able to educate themselves. It
:22:09. > :22:14.is a major issue of human development. If we do not make the
:22:14. > :22:20.effort... To achieve that, the development paradigms that we want
:22:20. > :22:23.to achieve is going to be very difficult for us. Let me quote to
:22:23. > :22:29.you the words of a Ghanaian who used to work for Microsoft in the
:22:29. > :22:34.US. He set up a privatised University. He said Africa has
:22:34. > :22:39.reached an inflection point. He says, we can bring change in one
:22:39. > :22:48.generation. The key is how we train a new generation of leaders. That
:22:48. > :22:52.will make all the difference. Do you agree? I do. In that case, you
:22:52. > :22:58.are a veteran politician. Your father was president. You have
:22:58. > :23:04.served in two administrations from 2000 to 2000 to wait. You have a
:23:04. > :23:09.background. You were educated in the UK. Doesn't Ghana need a new
:23:09. > :23:15.generation to fulfil this promise? The people of Ghana will make that
:23:15. > :23:21.decision. Whether or not a new generation... Were to looking for
:23:21. > :23:27.is if the people resonate. If people are articulating the views
:23:27. > :23:34.and aspirations of ordinary people. Do you think you can connect with
:23:34. > :23:42.ordinary Guardian's? Absolutely. The evidence is out there. It isn't
:23:42. > :23:51.yet. Be lost the last election. Everyone was out of touch with the
:23:51. > :23:56.realities of the lives of ordinary Ghanaians. I have no difficulty in
:23:56. > :24:00.the certainty that indeed, one connects and will continue to
:24:00. > :24:07.connect. Away at talking about the matters of concern to ordinary
:24:07. > :24:13.people. Access to education and jobs, how the economy is impacting
:24:13. > :24:17.on their lives. Defeat will be possible for us to continue the
:24:18. > :24:21.economy we have been operating so far. These are critical questions.