:00:02. > :00:12.guilty. That is the summary of the news.
:00:12. > :00:13.
:00:13. > :00:18.Now it is time for HARDtalk. Welcome to a special edition of
:00:18. > :00:20.HARDtalk from Tunisia, the birthplace of the Arab Spring. I
:00:20. > :00:25.have come to the presidential palace to meet Moncef Marzouki, who
:00:25. > :00:31.has undergone at the most remarkable personal journey, from
:00:31. > :00:35.political prisoner and exile to President of the Republic. He now
:00:35. > :00:39.shares power with a coalition government, which is a mix of
:00:39. > :00:47.Islamists and secularists, who are committed to rebuilding Tunisia
:00:47. > :00:51.politically and economically. So, can this country, which has become
:00:51. > :01:01.the test bed for the new politics of the Middle East, prove that
:01:01. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:30.President Moncef Marzouki, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. For me it
:01:30. > :01:33.is fascinating to be in this building, because here, so many of
:01:33. > :01:38.the abuses of power that you campaigned against for years, were
:01:39. > :01:46.perpetrated. From right here. How does it feel for you to now
:01:46. > :01:52.occupied this building? Are very special. This place was actually
:01:52. > :01:56.the Office of Ben Ali himself. So, yes, I am very surprised to be here.
:01:56. > :02:05.The first day that I was here, I said, my goodness. I cannot believe
:02:05. > :02:11.that I am here in the place where the tyrant was, where he ordered so
:02:11. > :02:17.many people to be tortured and harassed and so forth. And now I am
:02:17. > :02:21.here to do exactly the opposite. To promote and protect human rights.
:02:22. > :02:25.It is fantastic, really. There is another thing that strikes me about
:02:25. > :02:33.your position. You are the President in a new system, a new
:02:33. > :02:36.Tunisia, where much of the power right now is vested in the
:02:36. > :02:40.constitutional Assembly and the new elected government. There is a
:02:40. > :02:43.danger that he will be used as a fig leaf, as a token for that
:02:43. > :02:48.government. Because you have great respect in your country, and
:02:48. > :02:53.because people remember you struggle. There is a problem here.
:02:53. > :02:57.The government may use you. Do you agree with that? No, there is no
:02:57. > :03:00.danger, because the power is shared by the President of the Republic,
:03:00. > :03:07.the President of the government and the President of the constitutional
:03:07. > :03:12.assembly itself. We meet once a week and we talk about all the
:03:12. > :03:21.political issues. We make decisions together. There is no danger that
:03:21. > :03:25.I'm just here as a facade. But the truth is that your party is a very
:03:25. > :03:29.junior party in the government. The Prime Minister represents another
:03:30. > :03:38.back, the moderate Islamist party. He is going to drive policy in this
:03:38. > :03:43.country, not you. Well, you probably know that Ennahda are in a
:03:43. > :03:49.coalition government with us. They cannot have sovereign government
:03:49. > :03:54.without participation. They badly need us as we badly need them.
:03:54. > :03:57.There is a common agreement among us that this country must be ruled
:03:57. > :04:04.by a collision, by consensus, and we are reaching this consensus
:04:04. > :04:07.every day. -- commission. We will talk about what that means for
:04:07. > :04:11.domestic affairs in a moment, but let's talk about your role in
:04:11. > :04:15.foreign affairs, we do have real powers. In essence, you regard
:04:15. > :04:19.foreign affairs as your first and premiered demesne. I want to talk
:04:19. > :04:25.to you about what is happening in your region, particularly what is
:04:25. > :04:29.happening in Syria. Just a few days ago you said that you're prepared
:04:29. > :04:38.to offer President Bashar other side asylum, safe haven, in Tunisia.
:04:39. > :04:42.Why did you do that? Because, as you know, Tunisia was the first
:04:42. > :04:46.country to have to the Arab Spring. To have this democratic revolution.
:04:46. > :04:51.We feel that we have some responsibility towards Syria,
:04:51. > :04:57.because this a real revolution is just after our own. So we feel that
:04:57. > :05:02.we have that kind of moral responsibility towards Syrians. And
:05:02. > :05:08.they are also Arabs, they are our brothers. I really cannot accept
:05:08. > :05:12.that every day we have 100 people being killed by the regime. My
:05:12. > :05:19.obsession is to stop the killing, I regard this as the main problem.
:05:19. > :05:24.you regard a side as a murderer? Yes, of course. But the only way to
:05:24. > :05:28.stop the killing is to have a year many solution. The President leaves
:05:28. > :05:34.power and is given some way to go. Otherwise he will continue to kill
:05:34. > :05:39.and to kill and to kill. And this is why we said, look, if the price
:05:39. > :05:44.of peace in Syria is to give safe haven to this guy, why not? And I
:05:44. > :05:49.propose to Russia, but Russia was not a very happy with that idea.
:05:49. > :05:53.They said, why did you, did Tunisians, taking? And I said, OK,
:05:53. > :05:56.if this is the price I have prepared to accept this price. It
:05:56. > :06:01.is a high price but we are prepared to pay it because of life is more
:06:01. > :06:06.important than justice. Have you had any official contact with the
:06:06. > :06:13.Syrian government? No, and I doubt that the Syrians would ever
:06:13. > :06:16.approach us. But we are ready. If this is the price, once again, I
:06:16. > :06:22.will say that the life of thousands of Syrians is much more important
:06:22. > :06:25.then just as. Really? It seems to be a difficult position for you to
:06:25. > :06:29.take, because you are a human rights campaigner, a campaign
:06:29. > :06:34.against justice and abuse, and he used it telling me that you think
:06:34. > :06:38.Assad is a murderer, get you are prepared to offer him protection.
:06:38. > :06:42.Yes, if he is ready to stop the killing. Because if he leaves Syria
:06:42. > :06:46.now, probably you would save thousands of lives tomorrow. And
:06:46. > :06:50.this is the most important thing. What about the UK Prime Minister
:06:50. > :06:54.David Cameron, and the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who have
:06:54. > :07:01.both said very clearly that there will be a day of judgement for
:07:01. > :07:05.Bashar al-Assad. He cannot escape it and he must not escape it.
:07:05. > :07:08.think if they can be no solution this will probably be the end of
:07:08. > :07:11.Bashar al-Assad. But if we can have this consensus to save lives, I do
:07:11. > :07:21.not think it is a good solution, but it is much better than the
:07:21. > :07:23.
:07:23. > :07:29.other one, which is to keep the killing going For. You have
:07:29. > :07:34.referred to Tunisia as the birthplace of the Arab Spring. Do
:07:34. > :07:39.you believe, when you see the reports, as the BBC has reported in
:07:39. > :07:42.the last 24 hours, do you believe the terrible crimes like the murder,
:07:42. > :07:49.this the team of the root of children in Homs, when you hear
:07:50. > :07:59.these allegations do you believe that military intervention of some
:07:59. > :08:02.sort to stop the killing is now an imperative? I am quite sure that if
:08:02. > :08:06.there is military intervention there will be warned not only in
:08:06. > :08:15.Syria but in the whole region. And this is what I am afraid of. This
:08:15. > :08:22.is why I say that I wish the Syrian revolution was like the Tunisian
:08:22. > :08:28.one, by the civil society and the police. This did not happen. But Mr
:08:28. > :08:32.President, my point, in a way, is that international analysts are now
:08:32. > :08:37.talking of what is happening in Syria in the same breath as they
:08:37. > :08:47.describe the previous tragic events in Schiavone Cup or maybe even, to
:08:47. > :08:52.
:08:52. > :08:58.a certain extent, in a row wander off. -- wander. --Rwanda. Doesn't
:08:58. > :09:02.the international community have to make some sort of intervention?
:09:02. > :09:09.is not always easy to find a peaceful solution. But what I am
:09:10. > :09:13.afraid of is a new war, not only in Syria, but in the whole region.
:09:13. > :09:17.This is probably the worst thing that could happen in this area.
:09:18. > :09:25.This is why I keep saying that we must try every day for a peaceful
:09:25. > :09:30.and consensus solution. recently hosted a Friends of Syria
:09:30. > :09:35.meeting here in Tunis. We again saw the divisions in the Arab world, in
:09:35. > :09:37.the Arab League, with some loud and powerful voices, including the
:09:37. > :09:47.Qatar reach double bed, and the Saudis, it seemed that talk is not
:09:47. > :09:50.
:09:51. > :09:57.enough any more. --Qatari government. And some are saying
:09:57. > :10:01.that the Arab League should on the rebels. Do you support that? No it.
:10:01. > :10:03.As a human rights activist, as a member of a country that has had
:10:03. > :10:09.this peaceful and democratic revolution, I keep saying that we
:10:09. > :10:14.must avoid alarming the opposition. I am still convinced that any
:10:14. > :10:17.military intervention would be a worse solution, extremely dangerous,
:10:18. > :10:26.and this is why I keep saying that we have to reach a political
:10:26. > :10:32.solution. Of the Arab world is now desperately divided, isn't it?
:10:32. > :10:36.that is true. What does that say about the Arab world post Arab
:10:36. > :10:42.Spring? Maybe it suggests that far from coalescing around a clear
:10:42. > :10:50.vision of an Arab future, divisions are growing? Yes, sure. Divisions
:10:50. > :10:58.are growing and crisis is growing and instability is growing. We are
:10:58. > :11:08.in a very difficult situation. But I think this crisis should go on,
:11:08. > :11:08.
:11:08. > :11:12.because the outcome of it is probably a new Arab world,.
:11:12. > :11:16.much blood is going to be spilled before this the Arab world is
:11:16. > :11:23.achieved? Nobody knows. But at least the Tunisian example is being
:11:23. > :11:25.followed by other nations. Let me ask you a wider question. The
:11:26. > :11:29.current president of the General Assembly of the United Nations
:11:29. > :11:33.happens to be the ambassador from Qatar. And he says that he is
:11:33. > :11:37.gravely disappointed in the functioning of the United Nations.
:11:37. > :11:41.He says that Russia and China's ability to thwart international
:11:41. > :11:49.action on Syria on the Security Council suggests that the United
:11:49. > :11:58.Nations itself is dysfunctional. you agree? Yes, of course. And I do
:11:58. > :12:08.not seek any other solutions. -- C. I do not think it will be very easy
:12:08. > :12:11.see what could happen in the future. Let me ask you something which
:12:11. > :12:15.arises from our discussion of what should happen to President Assad,
:12:15. > :12:23.and to Syria. It seems to me that your position, that you would be
:12:23. > :12:28.protection, flies in the face of everything that Tunisia says and
:12:28. > :12:31.once when it comes to former President Ben Ali. There he sits in
:12:31. > :12:38.Saudi Arabia, the Tunisian government demands his extradition
:12:38. > :12:42.and says that it is fundamental for justice to be delivered to Ben Ali.
:12:42. > :12:46.In that context, you have a fundamental contradiction in your
:12:46. > :12:52.position. You call Assad about right, and offer him production,
:12:52. > :12:56.yet to demand the extradition of Ben Ali? You must understand that
:12:56. > :13:00.opposition in Syria comes from the fact that we want to save lives.
:13:01. > :13:06.Because we think that if Tunisia up for any other country does not
:13:06. > :13:13.offer a safe haven to this dictator, he will go on killing, and my
:13:13. > :13:18.obsession is to save lives. If we can do this, by giving this
:13:18. > :13:25.opportunity to the dictator, I will say it OK. But you and I both know
:13:25. > :13:28.that a cider will never asked to come and live in Tunisia. -- Assad.
:13:28. > :13:37.My point is that maybe by offering this protection you have undermined
:13:37. > :13:40.your case for the extradition of Do you think you have undermined
:13:40. > :13:43.your position? You yes.
:13:44. > :13:47.To you now think it is inconceivable that the Saudi
:13:47. > :13:53.Arabians are going to extradite the former President?
:13:53. > :13:58.They will never extradite it. -- end. It's my obsession with Syria
:13:58. > :14:04.is to save the lives. I am very interested to say that
:14:04. > :14:09.you will never get Ben Ali. When Tunisian to hear that frank
:14:09. > :14:14.assessment, do you think they are going to wonder whether US
:14:14. > :14:17.President are really committed to seeing a full accounting - a full
:14:17. > :14:22.sense of justice - for what happened under Ben Ali's regime and
:14:22. > :14:31.also what happened during those weeks of revolution?
:14:31. > :14:39.We asked the Saudis many times about this. They said no and so we
:14:39. > :14:42.will keep putting the pressure on Tunisia. But as I told you, I do
:14:42. > :14:46.not think they will except that because they have their own
:14:47. > :14:52.traditions aaditions awn laws and we do not want to have problems
:14:52. > :14:57.with them about this because we has a social and economic ties with
:14:57. > :15:00.Saudi Arabia. Do you mean that a business and
:15:00. > :15:05.investment from Saudi Arabia is too important for you to make a big
:15:05. > :15:09.noise about Ben Ali? It is important but it is also
:15:09. > :15:15.important for us to have been nearly. So we have said that we
:15:16. > :15:22.will maintain good relations with them but also to we will probably
:15:22. > :15:28.try to convince them to change their position on Ben Ali.
:15:28. > :15:33.You talk about unrest end this adaptation of youth. I think it is
:15:33. > :15:37.perhaps most obvious in the area of the economy. Unemployment is rising
:15:37. > :15:41.and is worse than before the revolution. Foreign businesses have
:15:42. > :15:50.pulled out - perhaps 100 or so - because of instability. We have
:15:50. > :15:55.seen strikes and Western Terrace at no longer going to Tunisia. --
:15:56. > :16:01.Western tourists. We have to pay the price for more
:16:01. > :16:07.than 20 years of corruption. We have to also pay the price for one
:16:07. > :16:17.year of instability after the revolution. Now we are facing huge
:16:17. > :16:22.challenges because of this high rate of unemployment. But we have a
:16:22. > :16:32.lot of friends in Europe and the United States and Saudi Arabia are
:16:32. > :16:33.
:16:33. > :16:38.ready to help us. We actually now feel that something is changing and
:16:38. > :16:42.we are having a more and more tourists back.
:16:42. > :16:50.The talk a good game about to your own people, it's just a couple of
:16:50. > :16:55.months ago, he said that if workers do not stop there strikes there you
:16:55. > :17:02.would -- their the country is committing collective suicide in
:17:02. > :17:08.your words. He said if people do not stop striking, but you would
:17:08. > :17:12.quit within six months. You stick by that?
:17:12. > :17:21.Needed --. As I told you, we suffered from instability. The
:17:21. > :17:24.country is now getting more and more stable day after day.
:17:24. > :17:28.So you are backing away from this promise to resign if the economy is
:17:28. > :17:33.still in a mess? I think there situation is
:17:34. > :17:37.improving day after day. So that is a big economic challenge
:17:37. > :17:43.but it is not the only challenge because of this country, it seems
:17:43. > :17:48.to me, is still deeply polarised between those who would describe
:17:48. > :17:53.themselves as secular and of those who would identify themselves very
:17:53. > :17:57.much by their Muslim religion. Many would call themselves Islamists.
:17:57. > :18:02.Again, since you became president, and that divide has not been
:18:02. > :18:07.bridged and in some ways, it seems to be getting deeper.
:18:07. > :18:14.I do not agree with you because I think all Tunisian its... Somewhere
:18:14. > :18:17.secular and cular and slims and I think what we try and do in this
:18:17. > :18:22.country is to it knowledge we are a divided society with complexities
:18:22. > :18:24.and we have to accept that some of us are secular and some of us are
:18:24. > :18:28.Muslims and slims and work together.
:18:28. > :18:36.The everybody talks about working together but when the Prime
:18:36. > :18:46.Minister for example told supporters after his vfter his v
:18:46. > :18:48.
:18:48. > :18:53.are in the "sixth Caliphet", God- willing.
:18:53. > :18:58.I did not accept that. I will never accept that kind of
:18:58. > :19:03.Islamic state in this country. To use one to government to be
:19:03. > :19:07.careful with their words? Yes. A then why did you refer to
:19:07. > :19:13.those Tunisian so who followed the radical Egyptian cleric as
:19:13. > :19:22.bacteria? I did not. I referred to him...
:19:22. > :19:30.You called them abnormal and you call his followers bacteria.
:19:30. > :19:37.I think... Yes, I compared this man to a bacterium but I did not anyone
:19:37. > :19:46.else. We have to keep dialogue with them because they are our citizens
:19:46. > :19:53.and we have to explain to them that this man is extremely dangerous.
:19:53. > :19:59.Here in this country, hearing this man coming from Egypt and saying
:19:59. > :20:04.that women have should be considered less than a man...
:20:04. > :20:07.I understand and I feel your passion but you just told me that
:20:07. > :20:12.Tunisians have to be careful with their language. You regret some of
:20:12. > :20:15.yours? Yes. I apologised.
:20:15. > :20:19.And that brings us back to the beginning in talking about your
:20:19. > :20:26.role as president and working with the Prime Minister of the
:20:26. > :20:30.opposition. Do you trust them and their agenda and to you believe
:20:30. > :20:35.them when they say that what they want is a democratic pluralistic
:20:35. > :20:43.society in which citizens' rights are at their core of Tunisia's
:20:43. > :20:50.constitution? Are caused because -- of course
:20:50. > :20:55.because Islamic beliefs are widespread. It is just like in
:20:56. > :21:04.Europe with your differences. We have also magnate the Arab world
:21:04. > :21:11.this spectrum of parties and Muslim beliefs. I do not have a problem
:21:11. > :21:15.working with them. We agreed on women's rights and freedom of
:21:15. > :21:21.expression and they agree so we have a coalition based on this
:21:21. > :21:27.agreement. If they change their mind, we will probably change our
:21:27. > :21:32.position towards them but for the moment, I do not see any reason not
:21:32. > :21:36.to trust them. A final thought. Earlier, you gave
:21:36. > :21:41.me an interesting hint about perhaps with you had not decided
:21:41. > :21:44.whether to run as president when the interim constitution is
:21:44. > :21:48.replaced by the long-term constitution. You said something
:21:48. > :21:51.interesting. You said your own daughters are very much advising
:21:51. > :21:55.you not to run and to be a short- term President.
:21:55. > :21:59.Yes. The why Abba doing that and why are
:21:59. > :22:05.you not going to heed their advice necessarily?
:22:05. > :22:13.A am a writer and a physician. They probably think I could serve my
:22:13. > :22:19.country more in the Human Rights fields.
:22:19. > :22:25.I think I can be seduced by power but I can also be disgusted by
:22:25. > :22:30.power. I would probably make my choice but not today aot today aore
:22:30. > :22:35.you. A final thought on this. I wonder
:22:35. > :22:42.whether you are also disgusted by the fact that Tunisia's example on
:22:42. > :22:46.what is happening in this country is so clearly ends tragically not
:22:46. > :22:49.happening in so many other parts of the Arab world and UK have, as
:22:49. > :22:55.president and head of state, to deal with so many other Arab
:22:55. > :23:04.leaders. Theaders. The 'The Press' you ought discussed you as well?
:23:04. > :23:12.I am very proud of my country. I am proud of the way we lead is
:23:12. > :23:22.peaceful and democratic revolution and proud of the way week received
:23:22. > :23:22.
:23:22. > :23:29.more than 300,000 refugees from Libya. So really I am very proud of
:23:29. > :23:33.Tunisia and our people. But now I am upset about what will be there
:23:33. > :23:42.at the future because we are facing huge challenges from social and
:23:42. > :23:47.economic points of view and we are living in a dangerous world. We
:23:47. > :23:52.have to be careful of the situation in Libya and Nigeria.
:23:52. > :23:58.But I hope was that what happened here would spread and it would be a
:23:58. > :24:05.positive contagious moved. That did happen rarely and -- that