:00:08. > :00:13.television programmes. That is it from me. The days time
:00:13. > :00:18.now for HARDtalk. An information revolution is
:00:18. > :00:22.sweeping through the Middle East. No longer can state media
:00:22. > :00:30.organisations beat their audiences Propaganda with any confidence that
:00:30. > :00:39.it will be swallowed. My guest is a journalist who knows what it means
:00:39. > :00:49.to serve an authoritarian regime. He was the chief of news in Egypt's
:00:49. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:19.broadcaster. Is the Arab world are Welcome to HARDtalk. You have had
:01:19. > :01:24.plenty of time now to reflect on those momentous days of revolution
:01:24. > :01:33.back in early 2011. Two you have any sense of shame about your role
:01:33. > :01:40.in what happened? -- do you have? Absolutely not. I have done my
:01:40. > :01:50.professional job with the maximum professionalism I can. I did a roll
:01:50. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:58.of saving the country. In the circumstances I was in. I managed
:01:58. > :02:02.to stop, prevent any sort of conflict or clashes between the
:02:02. > :02:08.army and the presidential palace when I decided to take the decision
:02:08. > :02:13.to announce the Statement number one for the army without going back
:02:13. > :02:21.to any... You are racing ahead to some of the detail of what happened
:02:21. > :02:25.in those 18 days. Shame is what I started this. I tell you why - I
:02:25. > :02:33.wonder if you have pondered the words of a number of your own staff,
:02:33. > :02:43.people employed by Egypt radio and television, who have condemned the
:02:43. > :02:47.operation that you were leading. For example, one person to -- who
:02:47. > :02:56.spent years working there said state television waged an
:02:56. > :03:00.information war against democracy activists. I'm afraid some of these,
:03:00. > :03:08.it was just a private matter of the government. I don't want to go
:03:08. > :03:14.through the names but nobody resigned at the time. She resigned
:03:14. > :03:19.shortly afterwards. Many refuse to to show up and went to join the
:03:19. > :03:25.demonstration. No-one resigned at the time. I will tell you the
:03:25. > :03:30.situation... It does not mean she is not wrong. She says "There were
:03:30. > :03:37.people running Egypt's state television at the time had tried to
:03:37. > :03:42.deal legitimise the protesters and smear of the revolution". We did
:03:42. > :03:50.our job at the time as professionals under pressure. I had
:03:50. > :04:00.three choices to make. Either to do as any state television was doing,
:04:00. > :04:03.
:04:03. > :04:09.to be a public relations for for the regime. -- PR tool. Choice
:04:10. > :04:13.number two - to leave the place. Choice number three is to take the
:04:13. > :04:18.responsibility, as you understand it, do your job as you understand
:04:18. > :04:24.it and as you can under the pressure we had at the times.
:04:24. > :04:34.keep talking about the pressure. You did, did you not, received
:04:34. > :04:36.
:04:37. > :04:42.calls saying you must keep the voices of protesters off air. The
:04:42. > :04:52.first time, the first period starting from the 25th them to 2nd
:04:52. > :04:53.
:04:53. > :04:57.February, at the time I was in the middle of the worst crisis. Parts
:04:57. > :05:01.of the body are fighting against each other, each one trying to
:05:01. > :05:06.control the media. You make it sound like a civil war and it was
:05:06. > :05:12.not like that at all. People wanted to go on the streets to make plain
:05:12. > :05:18.their desire to see a new Egypt, to see the Mubarak regime indent.
:05:18. > :05:26.not talking about the demonstrators, I'm talking about the state, the
:05:26. > :05:32.government of the presidential palace. I am not asking you to go
:05:32. > :05:38.into the politics of the palace. I am asking why the state television
:05:38. > :05:45.news did not show the scenes in Tahrir Square, day after day,
:05:45. > :05:51.starting on 25th January. Why did she keep them off air and white
:05:51. > :06:00.television repeatedly talked about the violence being undertaken,
:06:00. > :06:10.according to your reports. afraid also it is not accurate
:06:10. > :06:13.
:06:13. > :06:19.information. We didn't call it the demonstrators from us at all. --
:06:19. > :06:25.didn't call them thugs. I had instructions not to open the
:06:25. > :06:34.telephone line with people in Tahrir Square. First I stopped any
:06:34. > :06:44.one, people people don't like them and are very loyal to the regime. I
:06:44. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:55.asked people already who have a sort of respect. The other thing,
:06:55. > :07:02.
:07:02. > :07:07.like a cat can right at the time. - - cat and rat at the time. Our
:07:07. > :07:12.cameras were destroyed in the first few days at the square. We were
:07:12. > :07:20.under siege from the army and demonstrators at the time. We could
:07:20. > :07:24.not go out with our camera without permission from the army. Right but
:07:24. > :07:29.it is more of a question of discussion the difficulties of the
:07:29. > :07:33.situation when it comes to logistics. You were an employee of
:07:33. > :07:40.the government, answerable to the information minister who sat in the
:07:40. > :07:50.same building as you. You were a device of the Mubarak regime, Wu Di
:07:50. > :07:51.
:07:51. > :07:59.not? Is that a judgement or make a question? It is a question. I was a
:07:59. > :08:09.professional who except at a certain time to work with them. --
:08:09. > :08:11.
:08:11. > :08:21.who accepted. Were you a member of the ruling National Democratic
:08:21. > :08:30.
:08:30. > :08:38.Party? I was a member. You cannot considerate as a sort of, it is not
:08:38. > :08:42.like the Ba'ath Party. If you wanted to be independent, fair-
:08:42. > :08:48.minded, accountable as a journalist running Egyptian television, why
:08:48. > :08:58.did you feel it was right to be a member of the ruling party? It was
:08:58. > :09:05.
:09:05. > :09:15.not take party, it is a part of the state it's self.... half of the
:09:15. > :09:15.
:09:15. > :09:22.people in Tahrir Square were members of the party. One MP now in
:09:22. > :09:30.the parliament was a member. A lot of people were a member. It is a
:09:30. > :09:36.part of the regime and if you can go through a few thousand years ago,
:09:36. > :09:46.Egypt was a central society and the power was central. A lot of people
:09:46. > :09:47.
:09:47. > :09:55.are dealing with the regime. They hate it and Lovett at the same time.
:09:55. > :10:05.-- and love it. As the member, Diddy take any direction from the
:10:05. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:18.party, Diddy folly any of their remarks was that -- did you follow?
:10:18. > :10:23.You know... My decisions which were, at the time, five years on
:10:23. > :10:27.television... You know as well as I do that there are many people who
:10:27. > :10:33.want a real investigation of exactly what happened inside state
:10:33. > :10:38.media during those days of revolution. There have been efforts
:10:38. > :10:44.by people who want you to testify in a court. Allegations that staff
:10:44. > :10:49.members are answerable to who undertook fake telephone calls
:10:49. > :10:59.pretending to be members of the public. It has never been tested in
:10:59. > :11:00.
:11:01. > :11:06.a quarter -- court of the law. you are saying has been tested and
:11:06. > :11:13.they confirm that what the allegation, it was a fake phone
:11:13. > :11:22.call and they said one of the names. They made a test, a voice test and
:11:22. > :11:27.confirmed that this is not true. This guy already made allegations,
:11:27. > :11:34.who said that against him... Just to clear it up, you have not
:11:35. > :11:42.testified? You can test my book... It is rather different to going
:11:42. > :11:49.into a court. What you like talking about his part of something we are
:11:50. > :11:57.really proud of because at the time, when we had this, nobody, the state
:11:57. > :12:02.itself, no power and we have just the Armin and a few offices in the
:12:02. > :12:07.TV to take calls from people who are already suffering from attack
:12:07. > :12:13.at the time... A final thought about these days of revolution. In
:12:13. > :12:18.the end Mubarak was toppled, the army shot him aside. As you said
:12:18. > :12:22.earlier, you took the decision to air the army's emergency statements
:12:22. > :12:32.from the beginning without consulting the presidential palace.
:12:32. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:40.That is a sign of your realisation I realised that Mubarak was
:12:41. > :12:47.finished. This was the time to finish the job of. I knew from the
:12:47. > :12:55.beginning that Mubarak should make a hard decision. He did not take it.
:12:55. > :13:05.This is why the army was convinced. Any kind of pressure should be
:13:05. > :13:08.
:13:08. > :13:15.taken. I took this action from the army, the right decision. It is not
:13:15. > :13:21.because he was going away. I want to straighten out one final thing
:13:21. > :13:28.before we move on. After she was corner, who suffered the
:13:29. > :13:33.humiliation of having some of your own or staff trying to overtake you.
:13:33. > :13:43.You were only saved because there were soldiers in the building. What
:13:43. > :13:53.sort of message does that send to you? This happens on a 13th
:13:53. > :13:54.
:13:54. > :14:03.February. I resigned after six weeks. There was a lot of
:14:03. > :14:08.demonstrations. I got a phone call from one of my colleagues. They
:14:08. > :14:18.were asking for races on sour please. We are talking about 20% of
:14:18. > :14:23.
:14:23. > :14:32.people. When you are talking about people chanting a political slogan,
:14:32. > :14:42.I had my people believing in what I've told them. We are working for
:14:42. > :14:42.
:14:42. > :14:46.her a nation, not a person Moree regime. Time to broaden the
:14:46. > :14:50.conversation beyond the days of the revolution. You say you were
:14:50. > :14:54.working for the nation. You regard yourself as an Independent
:14:54. > :14:58.journalist trying to uphold a journalistic standards in a
:14:58. > :15:05.difficult situation. Let us consider the sort of compromises
:15:05. > :15:11.you had to make rata time working for a state television and radio.
:15:11. > :15:20.You acknowledge that the 2005 election was a sham. And if you
:15:20. > :15:30.continue to work for the government. I wonder why you did that.
:15:30. > :15:30.
:15:30. > :15:34.presidential election of 2005. This was the parliamentary election. We
:15:34. > :15:43.had the best coverage for the election. We were the most balanced
:15:43. > :15:49.at the time. My point is that you, in the book, say that the democracy
:15:49. > :15:58.that the regime allowed to was a sham. And yet in that very same
:15:58. > :16:08.year you continue to working in a state television. Are you saying
:16:08. > :16:12.
:16:12. > :16:21.that it was fair? It was fair. You can share it with the Muslim
:16:21. > :16:31.Brotherhood. There were three stages. The first stage was there.
:16:31. > :16:32.
:16:32. > :16:36.The second and third was a disaster. There were big mistakes. You seem
:16:36. > :16:44.to be rewriting history. You write that your relationship with the
:16:44. > :16:50.regime. You talk about the growing arrogance of the state apparatus.
:16:50. > :17:00.This is the regime you decided to work for. You're given high-profile
:17:00. > :17:02.
:17:02. > :17:09.interviews. The questions were gone over with you before the interview.
:17:09. > :17:19.You say that he respected Hosni Mubarak very much and that he
:17:19. > :17:26.respected you. This was the regime that ruled Egypt for 30 years. Most
:17:26. > :17:36.of the people were dealing with the Mubarak regime. They were looking
:17:36. > :17:41.for a man at to have this blessing. -- minutes. Let us be as fair as we
:17:41. > :17:48.can be to the people of Egypt who have looked at what has happened to
:17:48. > :17:54.their country. They see corruption, exploitation, a widening gap
:17:54. > :18:00.between the rich and poor, many senior officials convicted of
:18:00. > :18:07.corruption, they even see your old boss sentenced to seven years in
:18:07. > :18:11.jail for misappropriation of public funds. Not a single breath of this
:18:11. > :18:21.was reported by you and your news teams in the five years you were in
:18:21. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:35.charge. We reported more than that. We talked about corruption. I was
:18:35. > :18:35.
:18:35. > :18:41.trying to have this kind of freedom against oppression. We can go
:18:41. > :18:51.through everything. Are you telling me that he went after Hosni
:18:51. > :18:52.
:18:52. > :18:58.Mubarak? We know that hundreds of millions of US dollars... D's was
:18:58. > :19:08.discovered after the uprising. you do any investigative
:19:08. > :19:10.
:19:10. > :19:15.journalism? This was something I was trying to do. We had people
:19:15. > :19:20.signing contracts with us to work for her my team of. We were trying
:19:20. > :19:29.to train journalists for investigative reporting. We were
:19:29. > :19:39.trying to improve the quality of the journalism. In 2007 I thought
:19:39. > :19:43.
:19:43. > :19:52.many times, I discovered that the winds of change was not a true
:19:52. > :20:02.thing at the time. I thought I should resign. Do you wish you had?
:20:02. > :20:04.
:20:04. > :20:12.To tell you the truth, maybe yes. But you did not. There are so many
:20:12. > :20:19.important things a need to talk to you about. I did not, because it is
:20:19. > :20:29.either doing what every you can do, or leave it for someone else. It
:20:29. > :20:30.
:20:30. > :20:38.would be a disaster. Egyptian people can notice the improvement.
:20:38. > :20:45.They can compare between January 2005 and when I left. I want to
:20:45. > :20:50.bring us up to date and consider where Egypt is today. It is being
:20:50. > :20:56.controlled by the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. We have seen
:20:56. > :21:00.many dissident journalists arrest an put into military detention. We
:21:00. > :21:08.have seen thousands of other people go to the military court system. We
:21:08. > :21:12.have seen it freedom of expression time and again stamped upon by the
:21:12. > :21:18.Supreme Council of the Armed Forces. Where is Egypt's revolution today
:21:18. > :21:25.when it comes to freedom of expression. Egypt is passing
:21:26. > :21:35.through a difficult time. The country is being pushed towards
:21:36. > :21:38.
:21:38. > :21:46.disaster. We are trying to think about the future. Nobody is
:21:46. > :21:56.challenging what they are doing. That is the problem. There is no
:21:56. > :21:56.
:21:56. > :22:03.freedom of discussion. There is nobody in jail now. Many of them
:22:03. > :22:11.have suffered weeks and months inside military prison. I am
:22:11. > :22:19.against any decision taken against a freedom of expression. I have
:22:19. > :22:29.told my friends and colleagues. I push for transparency. You have to
:22:29. > :22:30.
:22:31. > :22:38.know how to deal with them. The Army are not ready for it. Isn't it
:22:38. > :22:44.a wider question them that? Consider what is happening in Syria.
:22:44. > :22:50.Too many people in the Arab world still do not get it. The
:22:50. > :22:56.Information Control they used to exercise is no longer tenable. It
:22:56. > :23:03.is not possible for them to control information the way they used to.
:23:03. > :23:13.do not think people are trying to control information and the media.
:23:13. > :23:16.
:23:16. > :23:26.I came last night from Egypt. why have some stations been shut
:23:26. > :23:28.
:23:28. > :23:32.down? We have not got time for the long version. I have asked the
:23:32. > :23:42.question at the very beginning, is the Arab world really ready for a
:23:42. > :23:47.
:23:47. > :23:55.free media? We have two media's - the private and state media's. We
:23:55. > :24:05.have a lack of this code of ethics. It should be done by the media
:24:05. > :24:05.
:24:05. > :24:11.people themselves. We should be supervising and observing the media.
:24:11. > :24:18.I know you have plans to set up a Pan Arabic media organisation. Do