:00:06. > :00:16.insists the move would not amount to privatisation. Now it is time
:00:16. > :00:18.
:00:18. > :00:21.My guest on HARDtalk is a survivor, the sole constant in the life of
:00:21. > :00:26.one of the East -- the most successful groups in Motown history.
:00:26. > :00:31.Otis Williams formed the temptations in 1961. Record sales
:00:31. > :00:37.tell a story of extraordinary success. If rock'n'roll was about
:00:37. > :00:41.sex and drugs, Motown was all that and more. How has he so --
:00:41. > :00:45.sidestepped the cocaine addictions, the drink and addiction that killed
:00:45. > :00:55.other members of his group? Didier ever feel he got his just rewards
:00:55. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:22.and when will he finally decides he Otis Williams, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:22. > :01:30.Thank you. I called you a survivor there. Is that how you see
:01:30. > :01:33.yourself? In so many ways, yeah. I am the results of being with a
:01:34. > :01:43.group that has gone through a lot of changes, of Sand Downs, and I
:01:43. > :01:48.have lost original members. I am the sole survivor. -- ups and downs.
:01:48. > :01:53.Success is not all it is cracked up to be. You are dealing with people
:01:53. > :01:56.first. I have learned quite a bit and I am still learning. There were
:01:56. > :02:00.something like 22 vocalists in The Temptations throughout its
:02:00. > :02:04.existence. What he -- what has it been like when you have lost
:02:04. > :02:14.original members and move on the new people? One of the things I
:02:14. > :02:16.
:02:16. > :02:22.always tell people is that I do not look for the talent first. I look
:02:22. > :02:29.for what is here and here. You can have all the talent in the world
:02:29. > :02:34.and if you have someone looking to take care of business then you will
:02:34. > :02:38.ruin the talent. I am looking for the person more than a talent. The
:02:38. > :02:44.business is certainly still running - we know that - and it has been
:02:44. > :02:50.running for a long-term. -- a long time. With a look at the early days
:02:50. > :03:00.- 1956, you were already a big success. We have a bit of footage
:03:00. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:31.here. (SINGS) # You're out of sight, look out baby because here I come...
:03:31. > :03:36.# That is the trademark sound and the trademark moves. That is five
:03:36. > :03:39.years after you formed. I do not suppose there was a lot of awful
:03:39. > :03:47.lot of corporate -- choreography in Halle came to be and how you made
:03:47. > :03:52.the breakthrough. -- how you came. The choreography I give a note to
:03:53. > :04:02.Paul Williams. We used to just stand there when we rehearsed but
:04:03. > :04:10.
:04:10. > :04:14.Paul Mack -- Paul said we needed to merge. -- to move. It gave you a
:04:14. > :04:19.point of difference, I suppose. Tell me a little bit about what it
:04:19. > :04:27.was like in Detroit back in 1961, near the very start of Motown. Who
:04:27. > :04:32.were your heroes? I am from Texas originally and I was raised by both
:04:32. > :04:42.of my grandparents so I am used to sharing the Mahalia Jacksons, the
:04:42. > :04:47.Sam Cooks, the harmonies and the blues. The embryonic stages of
:04:47. > :04:57.rock'n'roll was beginning to happen at that time. I was listening to
:04:57. > :04:58.
:04:58. > :05:01.the Jackie Wilsons and the Nat King Coles, Roy Hamilton, some of the
:05:01. > :05:07.early rock'n'roll groups, the Drifters and whatever. When you
:05:07. > :05:13.came into Detroit, building all the time, a huge city, the Motor City,
:05:13. > :05:20.was music an opportunity for you to make the grade and get out of a
:05:20. > :05:24.poorer way of life or were you trying to live the dream? What
:05:24. > :05:29.inspired me to want to be in showbusiness, I went to a rock and
:05:29. > :05:35.roll show that came to the Fox theatre and I saw a group called
:05:35. > :05:45.the can relax. Fox Theatre is the second largest indoor theatre
:05:45. > :05:49.
:05:50. > :05:58.America. I was mesmerised by these five people performing in front of
:05:58. > :06:04.5,000 people. Her move from the East Side of the trite to the west
:06:04. > :06:10.side, which is where, sooner or later I met Berry Gordy. Mr Motown.
:06:10. > :06:18.I had a group called Otis Williams and the Distance. We had a regional
:06:18. > :06:23.hit and Berry Gordy was impressed with that. He told me he was
:06:23. > :06:32.starting his own label and we became disenchanted with the label
:06:32. > :06:38.we were with an eye called Berry Gordy. -- and I called. This was
:06:38. > :06:44.before Paul and Eddie joined the group. You moved on and started to
:06:44. > :06:51.find some success. Then you were rubbing shoulders with Smokey
:06:51. > :07:01.Robinson, Marvin Gay, Diana Ross, all these big names - what was that
:07:01. > :07:02.
:07:02. > :07:12.like in Motown? -- Marvin Gaye. We enjoyed being in Motown so much
:07:12. > :07:14.
:07:14. > :07:17.that we would help clean up at day's end for the next day. We all
:07:18. > :07:23.used to just come up and hang around. It was a wonderful place to
:07:23. > :07:32.be. Little did we know that Motown would become the global brand it is
:07:32. > :07:37.today. Pretty soon it became huge. What allows you to get your name up
:07:37. > :07:44.in lights, while competing with all those others? One thing I will say
:07:44. > :07:48.about Berry Gordy is that he always believed in us. When we first
:07:48. > :07:54.recorded our first record, most companies back then, possibly now,
:07:54. > :08:04.if you record one or two records and they do not happen, they will
:08:04. > :08:05.
:08:05. > :08:13.drop you. Smokey Robinson came up with our first hit in 1964. We were
:08:13. > :08:17.hobnobbing with Smokey Robinson, Berry Gordy, Norman Whitfield. You
:08:17. > :08:23.have these great names to move around with and you are getting big
:08:23. > :08:26.hits as well. Were you getting your just rewards, do you think? Were
:08:26. > :08:33.you getting the money you should have been getting? At the beginning,
:08:33. > :08:40.it was slow. We had to work up to getting any kind of money. We
:08:40. > :08:47.started making some money and it was great. It was a slow process,
:08:47. > :08:53.making the money. Our contract's were something we had to revise. --
:08:53. > :08:58.our contracts. They were buried gaudy contracts. You were quoted as
:08:58. > :09:07.saying that you were being shafted and Berry Gordy was holding his
:09:07. > :09:10.power over you. Is that how you felt? They were not the best
:09:10. > :09:14.contracts to start with but at the same time we understood that it was
:09:14. > :09:21.business and we had to work up to getting the best contract. Motown
:09:21. > :09:26.was the only game in town. Was it difficult to get an idea of what
:09:26. > :09:29.you were worth or how many records you were selling? We found that
:09:29. > :09:36.later on when we got an entertainment attorney in the name
:09:36. > :09:46.of Ed summers. We took our contracts to an attorney in Detroit.
:09:46. > :09:49.
:09:49. > :09:53.-- ed Summers. It was a seven-year contract and when our seven years
:09:53. > :10:01.were up, we found ourselves and entertainment attorney and he
:10:01. > :10:05.upgraded our contract. Was it the naivety of youth and perhaps the
:10:05. > :10:10.suggestion that Berry Gordy had a monopoly on you? He was the hottest
:10:10. > :10:14.producer in town so at that time we did not even have regrets in terms
:10:14. > :10:19.of facing hardship or anything. We just wanted to make hit records
:10:20. > :10:26.that made money, which we did. I still remember, when we first clear
:10:26. > :10:30.our debt to Motown, we had a sizable royalty cheque even with
:10:30. > :10:40.the contracts we were under. Let's look at The Temptations, especially
:10:40. > :10:48.
:10:48. > :10:55.the formative group. You had some powerful characters there, and
:10:55. > :11:01.David Ruffin was a huge character. David started out as a solo artist
:11:01. > :11:11.and he was so enamoured with us that he wanted to give up his solo
:11:11. > :11:14.
:11:14. > :11:24.career and join us. As David Ruffin and the Tempatations? No, that came
:11:24. > :11:25.
:11:25. > :11:35.later. David was a character. To remember David, as he came to
:11:35. > :11:38.
:11:38. > :11:44.Motown to record, he would be jovial and boastful. We saw him
:11:44. > :11:51.move from that personality to trying to be all of The Temptations.
:11:51. > :11:58.He was riding on cocaine as well, essentially? You said you were on
:11:59. > :12:08.the dark side as well, to some extent. How far did he go, you go?
:12:08. > :12:13.I was no angel. One thing I learned about myself was that I am always
:12:13. > :12:18.doing better than I was doing. I used to smoke a lot of grass but I
:12:18. > :12:26.have since stop that. I would watch each one of my guys that was not
:12:26. > :12:36.bad at the beginning. That was to the detriment of The Temptations.
:12:36. > :12:38.
:12:38. > :12:46.We let matter what should not have mattered. David Ruffin Succumbed to
:12:46. > :12:51.cocaine after he left the group. Paul Williams took his own life.
:12:51. > :12:54.You hired and fired people - did that way on new, perhaps even after
:12:54. > :12:59.they continued to struggle with their addictions, with their
:13:00. > :13:05.problems, their depression? Did you feel you could have done more to
:13:05. > :13:09.help? I always wish I could have done more. We all have decisions in
:13:09. > :13:13.how we want to live last night life and what path we want to walk. To
:13:13. > :13:19.see Paul Williams, when we first started out... When we first
:13:19. > :13:25.started out, we would get together to rehearse and we drank wine and
:13:25. > :13:31.beer. Paul drank milk. To see a brother come from drinking milk to
:13:31. > :13:41.sometimes drinking two to three bottles of Cava RCA at day, it was
:13:41. > :13:44.
:13:44. > :13:49.something to behold. -- bottles of brandy. You were the businessman of
:13:49. > :13:54.the troupe - wasn't it your job to hold that back and did manage that?
:13:54. > :14:03.One thing you have to remember is that people will be people
:14:03. > :14:08.regardless. My friend Melbourne took on many different forms. --
:14:08. > :14:11.Melvin took on. You can only do what you can do. People will do
:14:11. > :14:15.what they want to do regardless of what kind of common sense you will
:14:15. > :14:19.try to lay on them. It was a constant battle because I wanted
:14:19. > :14:29.the original five of us to stay together because there was a magic
:14:29. > :14:35.
:14:35. > :14:40.that will never be hat like that They said vet you were the one that
:14:40. > :14:47.had to swallow hard and follow all those front men and of course you
:14:47. > :14:53.did. But that decided a cold and dictatorial hand. A don't see
:14:53. > :14:58.myself as cold and dictatorial. I was a businessman. It may be
:14:58. > :15:03.mechanical. But me, I am not like that because I care too much about
:15:03. > :15:09.the others. You are shy man. You look impressive. You have been
:15:09. > :15:16.doing this for 50 years. David Ruffin once came out with that line.
:15:16. > :15:25.That was quite painful. That must have hurt you? The did not bother
:15:25. > :15:30.me. They were coming to see the five of us. Other people used to
:15:30. > :15:36.tell David Ruffin those things. It did not bother me. We have the
:15:36. > :15:42.purpose of what we had to do. When we walked out on stage, we saw role
:15:42. > :15:52.of the people let all to see The Temptations. Not the individuals.
:15:52. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:57.It was all five of us. I continued on. In the early days you're all
:15:57. > :16:02.stepped out. You stepped out into a segregated audience. You were
:16:02. > :16:08.caught him that think of the pivotal time of race relationships
:16:08. > :16:13.and civil rights. Looking back, do you ever wonder that you should not
:16:13. > :16:19.have gone on to the stage with a segregated audience? What we have
:16:19. > :16:26.to do was the thing that would help break down barriers. We had a
:16:26. > :16:31.purpose. Motown came along. They will never be another company like
:16:31. > :16:41.Motown. We were able to do certain things with the politicians and
:16:41. > :16:42.
:16:42. > :16:48.they could not do that. We went to university. We came at Burghley. We
:16:48. > :16:58.were standing on the side watching that stage being set up. We watched
:16:58. > :17:08.to crowd come in. The seats in the front were sold it to the white
:17:08. > :17:14.
:17:14. > :17:19.people. They sat down the front and the black people did not move. We
:17:19. > :17:25.walked out and we checked the microphone. We said, please do not
:17:25. > :17:31.do this. We came here for everybody, please do not sit where the ticket
:17:31. > :17:39.does not say to sit. Just come and have some fun. The thing I noticed
:17:39. > :17:48.is that the black people got up and they moved. They moved to the site.
:17:48. > :17:54.The white people sat down the front. That was very strong. We did more
:17:54. > :17:58.than what politicians could do. It was very powerful. But you were not
:17:58. > :18:02.political activists. Did you feel in any way you talk on any
:18:03. > :18:06.political roles? Did you go with the flow? Let's be honest, it
:18:06. > :18:12.worked with those crowds it may work for you from a business point
:18:12. > :18:17.of view. The music was quite political, that broke down certain
:18:17. > :18:25.things. We would the lies that through the music. That would bring
:18:25. > :18:32.people together. We did not have to speak. That was the powerful force
:18:32. > :18:37.of the music. I'm so bad back at Motown at that crucial time with
:18:37. > :18:42.that role performing and playing helped break down the barriers and
:18:42. > :18:48.we did not have to say one word we let the music do the speaking.
:18:48. > :18:53.sounds like it worked for you as a band and as a group to move with
:18:53. > :18:58.the times. You changed styles every decade of virtually. Is that the
:18:58. > :19:02.key to success? Wheat always prided ourselves not to be in a pigeon
:19:02. > :19:07.hole. As long as it was a great song and produced well and
:19:07. > :19:17.performed well we would never want to pigeonhole ourselves. I looked
:19:17. > :19:17.
:19:17. > :19:22.at the track record. We had many albums. Many of them were a
:19:22. > :19:28.statement. We could say almost anything. We pride ourselves with
:19:28. > :19:37.diversity. We spread the music through all perversity and
:19:37. > :19:43.eccentricities. You will up touring the UK. Is this your greatest hits
:19:43. > :19:48.tour? I never look at it like that. It's just music still being
:19:48. > :19:54.performed as fresh as it was when it first came out. I look at the
:19:54. > :19:59.audience and like I said, they are from very young people all the way
:19:59. > :20:04.it over 80 years old. That's the way music should be. They do not
:20:04. > :20:12.want to hit all of that music but they want the stuff from the 60s?
:20:12. > :20:19.They definitely want to hear 'My Girl' and the other famous ones.
:20:19. > :20:24.The most recent hit was in 1998. They want ticket the cornerstone
:20:24. > :20:29.songs. You have the situation after 22 vocalists, inevitably there's
:20:29. > :20:37.plenty of people that can say I was with The Temptations. We have an
:20:37. > :20:45.example in January, Dennis Edwards was in Baltimore. Does that upset
:20:45. > :20:51.you? About Dennis? Indie, anyone trying to say they are The
:20:51. > :21:00.Temptations. He to constant vigil. We always try it to stay on top of
:21:00. > :21:08.that. My manager and my at Hermes always look for that. They value
:21:08. > :21:12.The Temptations and they will try to make money from something.
:21:12. > :21:18.they were actually in The Temptations. That does not give
:21:18. > :21:28.them the right to take my name and live off that. When I stop to think
:21:28. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:38.about that. I admire Dennis because he told people that he messed up.
:21:38. > :21:43.Otis always tried to keep the group together and he was the one that Mr.
:21:43. > :21:51.You are still going. It's been a long journey and it still
:21:51. > :21:58.absolutely part of your life. How long would you go? I will keep
:21:59. > :22:06.riding the horse. Does that mean, when you die, The Temptations will
:22:06. > :22:12.die? We were speaking about that. They were faced with the same
:22:12. > :22:18.dilemma. My manager and I have spoken about that. It's something
:22:18. > :22:23.we need to figure out. If you were not there, many people said it
:22:23. > :22:29.would be just five guys up on stage, but you are the glue that holds it
:22:29. > :22:35.together. It has been so many up on stage. The group is bigger than the
:22:35. > :22:39.individual. It's tough for you. The show must go on. The show must go
:22:39. > :22:49.on and I will try to make sure that it does be done if I am no longer
:22:49. > :22:58.there. We will work on that. The music and the image will continue.
:22:58. > :23:03.Even if I'm not there maybe I will retire, but love to be involved and
:23:03. > :23:10.my manager and I will meet to try to figure at the best way to carry
:23:10. > :23:17.on the legacy. This is a different world now. People like Justin
:23:17. > :23:24.Bieber can push. Can there ever be returned to the old days? I don't
:23:24. > :23:30.think so. I think those days were special days that we all drawstring
:23:30. > :23:35.from and our memories. What it better of them are? It was not bad.
:23:35. > :23:42.It was testing but I love it and I would not change the cornerstone.
:23:42. > :23:49.His it disappointing now? No It is not I am still enjoying it. I have
:23:49. > :23:54.no regrets other them losing the five original guise. I have no