:00:15. > :00:19.He served in the South African presidential office in the time of
:00:20. > :00:24.Nelson Mandela and Jacob Zuma. He was privy to what went on behind
:00:24. > :00:33.the scenes. Now Frank she can't has a unburden himself in a new book in
:00:33. > :00:38.which she describes for the first time his recount of the removal of
:00:38. > :00:42.the President. He said it was a painful time for Mr Mbeki and
:00:42. > :00:47.exposed the deep rivalry at the heart of the ruling ANC, which
:00:47. > :00:57.continues to be divided today. As the ANC become so riven with
:00:57. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:27.factionalism in corruption that it Frank Chikane, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:27. > :01:37.The whole world was stunned when Thabo Mbeki resigned unexpectedly
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:38. > :01:43.as president in 2008. Why did he go, in your view? His party recalled in
:01:43. > :01:52.it and he decided that he was not going to resist the recall of his
:01:52. > :01:57.party. You may recall that Mr Mbeki grew up in the ANC, but did not
:01:57. > :02:02.spend much time with the family except the ANC. When the ANC made
:02:02. > :02:09.the decision that he should be recalled, he decided that he should
:02:09. > :02:16.resign. Record it basically means that the ends of the ANC met in
:02:16. > :02:23.Saddam back and said, we want you to leave. How did he feel? He must
:02:23. > :02:29.have been devastated? Of course it was a painful experience. He did
:02:29. > :02:33.not expect it to happen the way that it happened. He had only seven
:02:33. > :02:38.months before he ended his term and was planning for celebrations and
:02:38. > :02:46.fare well functions. Then a decision was made seven months
:02:46. > :02:51.before. It was a shock, but as you would go, the character of Mr Mbeki
:02:51. > :02:57.is not all of one who shows emotions. He took it as it came and
:02:57. > :03:01.then resigned. He left office in dignity. You would Director General
:03:01. > :03:04.to the presidency, effectively chief of staff. You have there
:03:04. > :03:14.behind the scenes. Discard the atmosphere it to us when he
:03:14. > :03:15.
:03:15. > :03:23.realised he had to go? The decision was made after midnight on that
:03:23. > :03:28.particular Friday. We decided that we would not wake him up to tell
:03:28. > :03:34.him about the decision. I went to him early in the morning with the
:03:34. > :03:42.senior staff to get him to note that the decision had been made.
:03:42. > :03:45.The delegation of the ANC was going to formally met him that -- let him
:03:45. > :03:53.know that it happened. He took it in a Cormac way and did not react
:03:53. > :03:59.emotionally. -- Cormack. Then he said, yes I am going to leave, but
:03:59. > :04:03.there are two things you have to advise on. Firstly, is there a
:04:04. > :04:07.constitutionally way of doing it? And secondly, what happens with the
:04:07. > :04:14.programmes that he was supposed to undertake in the next few days.
:04:14. > :04:18.That's all he discussed with them. After that, they can back and said,
:04:18. > :04:22.yes, we can go through the constitutional processes, but he
:04:23. > :04:28.could not continue with some of his activities. That was a bit of a
:04:28. > :04:34.challenge. If you say to a President, you cannot continue with
:04:34. > :04:38.certain activities before you resign, you could be seen to be
:04:38. > :04:44.interfering with the work of the President. Anyway, he was ready to
:04:44. > :04:52.leave and did not resist. Did you want him to change his mind? Did
:04:52. > :04:59.anybody tried to get into changed his mind? No, we did not. Actually,
:04:59. > :05:04.he was concerned about his legacy. He spent lots of time on the
:05:04. > :05:10.African renaissance project, to renew the African continent. To
:05:10. > :05:15.make sure there was peace and there would be development. He said that
:05:15. > :05:20.he would not like his problem at the party to destabilise the
:05:20. > :05:24.country and he would rather leave them to destabilise the party. He
:05:24. > :05:29.never really resisted. I think the challenge was more about the
:05:29. > :05:34.procedures and processors, which I had to manage. For instance, when
:05:34. > :05:38.does he do there his letter of resignation? Where does he do but
:05:38. > :05:43.it's too? In terms of our constitution, the President is
:05:43. > :05:49.elected by Parliament and so his resignation has to be delivered to
:05:49. > :05:55.Parliament. Then the next was when does he delivered the letter? We
:05:55. > :06:02.thought it would be better to consult with Parliament and after
:06:02. > :06:08.consulting its lawyers he would then determine what is the most
:06:08. > :06:12.constitutional way of doing it. write in your book about the
:06:12. > :06:17.resignation that the reality was that the drive to remove President
:06:17. > :06:24.Mbeki was motivated by Intra party issues. What do you mean by that?
:06:24. > :06:29.Was somebody trying to orchestrate his removal? It so, who? It was
:06:29. > :06:32.more of a party challenge, rather than government. I do see in the
:06:32. > :06:40.book that actually the contradiction is that at the point
:06:40. > :06:46.at which she was removed, the government was performing well.
:06:46. > :06:52.will come to his legacy in a minute. I just want to ask you, why do you
:06:52. > :06:57.think that, as you imply, Thabo Mbeki was effectively bundled out
:06:57. > :07:00.of office seven months before his second term expired? You describe
:07:00. > :07:06.it as deli humiliating for the President and most people would
:07:06. > :07:11.agree. Why did it come to that? was just putting context into which
:07:11. > :07:18.to say that it was unexpected because it was unnecessary. It had
:07:18. > :07:25.to do with a challenge just within the party. -- challengers within
:07:25. > :07:35.the party. By 2003, one man was charged by fraud and when the
:07:35. > :07:36.
:07:36. > :07:40.judgement was passed Barack Obama - - past... You're talking to the
:07:40. > :07:46.corruption charges relating to the arms dealer. He was found guilty
:07:46. > :07:51.and Jacob Zuma was acquitted. you simplify it for as? Who do you
:07:51. > :07:58.think was presenting these challenges to Thabo Mbeki? Was a
:07:58. > :08:06.faction, was it being orchestrated by an individual? I think there are
:08:06. > :08:11.people within the party who are not happy about the removal of the
:08:11. > :08:18.Deputy President from office. Jacob Zuma. Yes, the current
:08:18. > :08:24.president. At that point he was deputy president. He was removed
:08:24. > :08:31.from cabinet by President Mbeki and that made members of the ANC
:08:31. > :08:33.unhappy, but what happened next is that Jacob Zuma was charged with
:08:33. > :08:41.corruption and bad even angered some people because they thought
:08:41. > :08:48.Mbeki was involved in that incident. That was the accusation being
:08:48. > :08:52.levelled against the Mbeki. In June 2005, Mbeki asked Jacob Zuma to
:08:52. > :08:56.step down, but more than that, the accusation was that he was involved
:08:56. > :09:04.in those corruption charges being brought against Jacob Zuma. Was he,
:09:04. > :09:08.in your view? I do not know. That is the problem. The problem is that
:09:08. > :09:12.there are charges against the President. There is a finding in
:09:12. > :09:20.the court that implicates him and then the national director for
:09:20. > :09:28.public prosecution decided to charge him, but the average citizen
:09:28. > :09:35.would understand a state case against the President. You would
:09:35. > :09:39.say no, but I did not prefer the charges against him. I think that
:09:39. > :09:43.is what the date -- debate would be. I put it to you. You still have not
:09:43. > :09:48.answered my question about the orchestration of the challenged to
:09:48. > :09:54.Thabo Mbeki. You say supporters of Sir Mark, I ask you if you think
:09:54. > :10:02.Jacobs's simmer was somehow involved? Of busy people were
:10:02. > :10:09.campaigning for him and defending him. Obviously. They took up the
:10:09. > :10:13.campaign with him. It was not like something that happened outside.
:10:13. > :10:20.You are accusing Jacob Zuma, the current presenter of South Africa,
:10:20. > :10:24.of having orchestrated the moves which eventually... No, I am not.
:10:24. > :10:32.So, these people are just acting on behalf of Jacob Zuma without his
:10:32. > :10:37.knowledge? Bell, I would not want to use the word orchestrated. They
:10:37. > :10:44.worked with him together. They worked to campaign against Mbeki.
:10:44. > :10:51.Especially during the trial against him. People mobilised on the basis
:10:51. > :10:55.of that. Judge Chris Nicholson in September 2008, in a ruling about
:10:56. > :11:02.the Jacob Zuma corruption case, talk about the Titanic power
:11:02. > :11:06.struggle between Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki. As he put it, the
:11:06. > :11:11.rivalry between them is hard the open to question and the
:11:11. > :11:16.polarisation of the country into opposing camps before and after the
:11:16. > :11:26.conference is well-known. The rivalry, is this what this is all
:11:26. > :11:26.
:11:26. > :11:34.about? A personal rivalry between Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki? Are we
:11:34. > :11:44.not say personal. There were tensions. But they always denied
:11:44. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:49.that it was a rivalry amongst them. The fact is that at the end, the
:11:49. > :11:55.unhappiness blew up to a level where the African National Congress,
:11:55. > :12:02.in its conference, made a decision to vote for Jacob Zuma as President
:12:02. > :12:07.of the ANC against Thabo Mbeki. me put it into context here. You
:12:07. > :12:13.are talking about the ANC national conference in December 2007, when
:12:13. > :12:17.Jacob Zuma was elected President of the ANC, defeating Thabo Mbeki. You
:12:17. > :12:22.said a moment ago that you would not say it rivalry between the two
:12:22. > :12:28.men, but you talk about tensions. Give me an example of the kind of
:12:28. > :12:32.tensions between the two there you are referring to. Part of the
:12:32. > :12:36.problem was that they denied that they had problems themselves. They
:12:36. > :12:44.also denied that the attention are amongst themselves. You just said
:12:44. > :12:53.there was tension. Kidney example. What did you see? Detention was
:12:53. > :12:57.that there was unhappiness about being charged for corruption. --
:12:57. > :13:02.him being charged. They believed Mbeki was responsible for those
:13:02. > :13:05.charges. In fact they also believe that he could but trawl those
:13:05. > :13:12.charges. Some people believed that he could intervene pit-stop the
:13:12. > :13:16.trial. In our constitution, it said that that could not be done. People
:13:16. > :13:21.got angry and compared our constitution that the British
:13:21. > :13:26.constitution, the French, the Americans. They gave examples about
:13:26. > :13:35.what heads of states could do. In in a situation, you could not do
:13:35. > :13:44.that. So there was unhappiness and it led to Mbeki being voted out and
:13:44. > :13:50.There were no ideological differences? It was simply because
:13:50. > :13:58.of the corruption charges? There were no ideological differences.
:13:58. > :14:03.different visions of how South Africa could develop? Deficient is
:14:03. > :14:10.embodied in the African National Congress. There were no changes in
:14:10. > :14:16.the congress at which they voted. It was not an ideological issue.
:14:16. > :14:23.There were differences within the party. You paint a sympathetic
:14:23. > :14:31.portrait of Thabo Mbeki in your vote. It was almost a coup guitar.
:14:31. > :14:38.-- coup. You have set out the fact that the tensions the back to the
:14:38. > :14:44.fact that Jacob Zuma became president of the ANC. A lot of
:14:44. > :14:49.people were unhappy when the Thabo Mbeki try to become president for a
:14:49. > :14:54.third term. They thought he would try and wield influence behind the
:14:54. > :15:04.scenes and undermine never would-be president. Is that not a valid
:15:04. > :15:05.
:15:05. > :15:14.criticism? This was a democracy. There was no constitution that
:15:14. > :15:19.restrained any presidential nominee. There was no constitutional matter.
:15:19. > :15:29.The problem was that when the tensions developed. There was and
:15:29. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:37.happiness. -- unhappiness. If he continued as president of the ANC
:15:37. > :15:45.he might continue to influence processes within government or even
:15:45. > :15:55.within the party. Wouldn't that have undermined anyone who became
:15:55. > :15:56.
:15:56. > :16:04.President? He would have had two centres of power. Was Thabo Mbeki
:16:04. > :16:10.so addicted to power that he wanted to remain at the centre? That was
:16:10. > :16:16.not my understanding of what he was about. He was committed to making
:16:16. > :16:23.sure that this country was governed properly. It was not about
:16:23. > :16:32.influencing. In normal circumstances it would not be an
:16:32. > :16:36.issue at all. He could have been president. He became president of
:16:36. > :16:46.the ANC as well as being President of the party. Yet here he was
:16:46. > :16:47.
:16:47. > :16:55.trying to prevent his success so retaining presidency of the ANC. --
:16:55. > :17:01.successor. The decision was controversial and not in accordance
:17:01. > :17:11.with the Westminster system that was as Faust in the country. -- is
:17:11. > :17:12.
:17:12. > :17:22.Faust. That would be a wrong approach. It can be a faces on
:17:22. > :17:29.which you could assess the politics. -- faces. You have a lot of
:17:29. > :17:39.commentators saying the same thing. We should not use Nicholson's
:17:39. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:49.judgement. He came in and made a judgement that was ruled out. There
:17:49. > :17:57.was no constitutional problem for any member of the ANC to serve as
:17:57. > :18:07.president as long as the people collect that President. -- elect.
:18:07. > :18:07.
:18:07. > :18:12.Jacob Zuma was far more popular in the ANC than Thabo Mbeki. He won
:18:12. > :18:22.more than 60% of the nearly 4,000 votes to become president of the
:18:22. > :18:23.
:18:23. > :18:30.ANC. Just moving on and asking you... Let me just make it Clare,
:18:30. > :18:37.there is no debate on whether or not Jacob Zuma won the election.
:18:37. > :18:45.There was a democratic process. Any body can stand for an election.
:18:45. > :18:50.Just as Jacob Zuma won the election, he continued being President.
:18:50. > :19:00.just explains the reasons that led it itMbeki's early
:19:00. > :19:03.
:19:04. > :19:11.resignation. Why did you decide to publish this book? I decided before
:19:11. > :19:19.and left government that I was going to write a book. I asked for
:19:19. > :19:29.permission to access information. I decided to leave before Thabo Mbeki
:19:29. > :19:29.
:19:29. > :19:35.left. I talked to Jacob Zuma. He knew I would write a book about the
:19:35. > :19:41.things I could not say. The other would be an academic text to be
:19:42. > :19:47.used in schools. I started writing the book three months after I left
:19:47. > :19:53.government, in September. My intention was to publish that book
:19:53. > :20:01.at the beginning of 2010. Unfortunately I could not get a
:20:01. > :20:09.publisher. I started long ago to write the book. You set up what to
:20:09. > :20:13.believe is your account. Looking at Thabo Mbeki's legacy. You said that
:20:13. > :20:19.he was very keen to protect his legacy. There are those who say
:20:19. > :20:26.that his legacy was not a great one to protect. Look at his domestic
:20:26. > :20:36.policy. In the years he was president, the gap between the rich
:20:36. > :20:39.
:20:39. > :20:46.and poor or widened. Is that a great legacy? You cannot face the
:20:46. > :20:54.legacy of a President on the gap between the rich and poor. You have
:20:54. > :21:02.to look at the policies. These were ANC policies. These were not
:21:02. > :21:11.necessarily policies of an individual, but policies of a party.
:21:11. > :21:17.There were successes in some places and failures in other cases. There
:21:17. > :21:27.were changes in this country. not say there were not changes. But
:21:27. > :21:29.
:21:29. > :21:38.poverty levels soar some disparity. I could also mention his legacy on
:21:38. > :21:47.Zimbabwe. You had critics saying that he did not cover himself in
:21:47. > :21:57.glory. He chose to remain silent. There is the HIV policy. That is
:21:57. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:05.his legacy. I think, give me a chance to say what his legacy is.
:22:05. > :22:13.The point is that President Mac lead a government during Nelson
:22:13. > :22:23.Mandela's time. He put up new policies. He changed the lives of
:22:23. > :22:24.
:22:24. > :22:34.people. By 2008 there were a lot of changes in this country. He led it
:22:34. > :22:37.
:22:37. > :22:43.African renaissance. Could chew briefly talk about h five the? --
:22:43. > :22:50.HIV. You cannot reduce the legacy to HIV. The country performed well
:22:50. > :23:00.during his time. There are weaknesses that we need to deal
:23:00. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:12.with. Then there is the other youth issue. -- issue. There were
:23:12. > :23:19.difficulties we experienced during 1999-2000. I know you will be
:23:19. > :23:29.looking at HIV in a future book. A highly respected analyst said that
:23:29. > :23:29.
:23:29. > :23:39.the ANC is led by factionalism. Is it fit to govern given its 100
:23:39. > :23:43.
:23:43. > :23:53.years of existence? Is it fit to govern? The ANC is fit to govern.
:23:53. > :23:53.
:23:53. > :23:58.You cannot say it is not fit to govern. This is the ruling party.
:23:58. > :24:07.It is the government of the day. There might be challengers. But you