:00:11. > :00:16.A year ago revolution was in the air in the Gulf Kingdom of Bahrain
:00:16. > :00:18.- what about now? After months of violence which killed dozens of
:00:18. > :00:23.protestors, the Bahraini king commissioned an independent inquiry,
:00:23. > :00:29.then he promised to implement sweeping reforms. I speak today to
:00:29. > :00:31.Nabeel Rajab, one of Bahrain's most outspoken human rights activists.
:00:31. > :00:41.Has this strategically vital Gulf monarchy successfully reformed
:00:41. > :01:10.
:01:11. > :01:13.Welcome to HARDtalk. Nice to be here. In other parts of the Arab
:01:13. > :01:20.world we have seen autocratic regimes respond to popular protest
:01:20. > :01:23.with nothing but repression. Has it been different in Bahrain? It is
:01:23. > :01:30.different in that the regime has invited troops from other countries
:01:30. > :01:37.to take part in the crackdown. Mercenaries from Pakistan, Nigeria
:01:37. > :01:47.and Yemen. The only revolution that has received silence from the
:01:47. > :01:50.Western community. The only revolution which has not received
:01:50. > :02:00.coverage in the media due to the complications to the interests in
:02:00. > :02:02.
:02:02. > :02:06.the oil, arms sales and TV stations. They are the differences that you
:02:06. > :02:11.sense, and we can talk about them later. The difference I was
:02:11. > :02:14.alluding to was a different one. We have a ruler in Bahrain who, after
:02:14. > :02:23.months of popular protest, unrest and violence, said he would have an
:02:23. > :02:30.independent enquiry to see how his security forces have handled this.
:02:30. > :02:34.He accepted its findings and promised major change. But he did
:02:34. > :02:37.not keep his promises. He is a king who does not normally keep his
:02:37. > :02:41.promises. He did form an independent commission, according
:02:41. > :02:48.to him. That is not independent. An independent commission should be
:02:48. > :02:54.appointed by the United Nations. They were not from Bahrain. They
:02:54. > :02:56.were independent. The leader had worked on war crimes trials. These
:02:56. > :03:06.individuals worked inside Bahrain finding out what happened and
:03:06. > :03:08.issued a report which was damning of the Bahraini government. When
:03:08. > :03:18.someone accused of carrying out violations himself forms a
:03:18. > :03:19.
:03:19. > :03:26.commission, he is part of the commission. He is behind inviting
:03:26. > :03:33.the Saudi army to come to Bahrain. He is behind the troops committing
:03:33. > :03:37.the violations. Now he forms the commission to find out who is the
:03:37. > :03:47.bad guy. Do you think the commission would say that is the
:03:47. > :03:48.
:03:48. > :03:53.King? Is that responsible? Be responsible people, according to
:03:53. > :03:56.the government, is small policeman. They were ordered from the
:03:56. > :04:01.ministers at the top, from the Prime Minister, members of the
:04:01. > :04:04.ruling family, to commit those crimes. Let's look at the wording
:04:05. > :04:08.of what came out in those independent reports. You suggest it
:04:08. > :04:12.only pins the blame on the bad guys. It actually pointed to systemic
:04:12. > :04:19.problems inside your country. Security forces had used
:04:19. > :04:28.unnecessary force. Beatings, rape, electrocutions and torture were
:04:28. > :04:33.used. These were put inside a report which the King accepted.
:04:33. > :04:36.That is extraordinary, isn't it? The number of people killed after
:04:36. > :04:44.the commission started to work is larger than the number killed
:04:44. > :04:48.before. That shows you there is nothing of compliment mission.
:04:48. > :04:52.Those people are still in their job. The people responsible for the
:04:52. > :04:55.violation, the killings, were awarded better jobs. The man
:04:55. > :05:03.responsible for the national security apparatus has been awarded
:05:03. > :05:11.to be the king's advisor. And to head the Security Council, which is
:05:12. > :05:21.what criminals are being awarded. People are still in their job.
:05:22. > :05:22.
:05:23. > :05:26.Nothing is being done to bring them to justice. It seems you have a
:05:26. > :05:36.choice - the King of Bahrain is promising to learn from what he
:05:36. > :05:38.
:05:38. > :05:42.accepts are terrible abuses from the past. You can either take his
:05:42. > :05:45.word or dismiss him as a liar who cannot and will not ever change,
:05:45. > :05:49.ever deliver reform to your country. It seems you have taken the latter
:05:49. > :05:52.course. You seem determined not to listen. From the Economist magazine
:05:52. > :06:02.after the King had reacted to the independent enquiry - no other Arab
:06:02. > :06:02.
:06:03. > :06:12.leader has voluntarily invited such public scrutiny. It sounds good, it
:06:12. > :06:16.looks good. You'll be so cynical about the man. It seems to me
:06:16. > :06:20.you're suggesting that the only way forward for Bahrain is for the King
:06:20. > :06:25.and his and her family to go. this is the choice of people, then
:06:25. > :06:35.he has to go. I want to put things in context. Do not distance the
:06:35. > :06:35.
:06:35. > :06:39.King from responsibility. The UN were supposed to send a commission.
:06:39. > :06:46.He established a commission to stop the UN from sending an independent
:06:47. > :06:55.commission. This move by the King is to distance himself from
:06:55. > :06:58.responsibility. It is a smart move. But still we welcomed it. Do you
:06:59. > :07:04.accept that it has put you and other opponents of the regime on
:07:04. > :07:10.the back foot. The National Security Agency is no longer given
:07:10. > :07:19.the right to arrest people. Civilian courts reviewing
:07:19. > :07:22.convictions of military courts. Reviews of code of conduct. These
:07:22. > :07:32.are real reforms and the King has promised he is now undertaking
:07:32. > :07:35.
:07:35. > :07:39.change - you are reading an article and I am judging from the practice.
:07:39. > :07:42.The King is known to be a person who does not keep his promises. The
:07:42. > :07:52.commission says that those people in jail now because of their
:07:52. > :07:54.
:07:54. > :07:56.opinions should be released. More than 2000 have been. Now you have
:07:56. > :08:06.something like 600. Leaders of opposition, a human-rights
:08:06. > :08:12.
:08:12. > :08:15.activists, journalists, bloggers, doctors, nurses. The former senior
:08:15. > :08:18.Metropolitan Police chief John Yates, hired by the Bahraini
:08:18. > :08:28.government, said that excellent progress was being made on the
:08:28. > :08:33.
:08:33. > :08:37.security reforms. He is taking part in the crimes committed in Bahrain.
:08:37. > :08:44.He is covering up the crimes and violations committed by the king.
:08:44. > :08:48.Every day people are dying. You are making very serious violations.
:08:48. > :08:58.John Yates is a respected policeman who has gone there to help redress
:08:58. > :09:11.
:09:11. > :09:21.these issues. You go and see his estate. Just covering up the crimes
:09:21. > :09:23.
:09:23. > :09:27.committed by the King. The UN has been saying that we need to reform.
:09:27. > :09:32.He is just covering up the crimes of the King, saying nothing is
:09:32. > :09:35.happening. He becomes another Arab dictator talking from Bahrain. You
:09:35. > :09:40.keep talking about the crimes still being committed by the King's
:09:40. > :09:45.regime. What about your focus on some of the things happening from
:09:45. > :09:51.the other side of the political fence. The evidence of violence
:09:51. > :09:55.being used by village militias that we see in some of the Shia villages.
:09:55. > :10:01.Molotov cocktails are routinely used. Have you publicly condemned
:10:01. > :10:07.them? A principle of the violence.
:10:07. > :10:15.Whether it is used by the government or a protester. I do not
:10:15. > :10:18.think Molotov cocktails will solve any problems. Only now, after a
:10:18. > :10:25.year of the government killing people and the silence of the
:10:25. > :10:30.international community. Now after a year, people have started to use
:10:30. > :10:32.Molotov cocktails. A cleric was recently captured on video saying
:10:32. > :10:41.that demonstrators should crush police if they attempted to abuse
:10:41. > :10:48.women at demonstrations. Do you approve of language like crushing
:10:48. > :10:51.the police? The right of defence is a human right. So you think that
:10:51. > :10:56.when Shia clerics inside your country use this sort of language
:10:56. > :11:06.it is not inflammatory? It is not dangerous? It is not fuelling the
:11:06. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:09.flames of violence? You have to put things in the right position. When
:11:09. > :11:19.a security institution hired mercenaries from outside to raid
:11:19. > :11:19.
:11:19. > :11:22.villages. They are not local people. They are brought from outside.
:11:22. > :11:27.Brought it to take part in the crackdown. They have special houses
:11:27. > :11:36.in special cities, isolated from people. From Pakistan, Jordan,
:11:36. > :11:38.Syria, Yemen. Those people raid your house, steal things, attack
:11:38. > :11:48.your daughters, harass them sexually, torture them
:11:48. > :11:49.
:11:49. > :11:53.systematically, arbitrary arrest them. Are you going to defend that?
:11:53. > :11:57.The right of self-defence is a human right. You seem to be
:11:57. > :12:07.ignoring the efforts of Syria to change the way the security forces
:12:07. > :12:07.
:12:07. > :12:10.operate. The police, who are supposed to police the riots, are
:12:10. > :12:18.now told they can conduct interrogations in rooms which have
:12:18. > :12:26.closed circuit TV. A direct result of allegations that in the past
:12:26. > :12:33.they have interrogated under torture. Torturing centres - they
:12:33. > :12:37.used a horse stable and a youth centre as torture centres. They
:12:37. > :12:47.have put cameras in places, but torture is carried out in other
:12:47. > :12:47.
:12:47. > :12:55.places. Cameras do not relate to security institutions. They have
:12:55. > :12:59.been committing torture there. This is not solving the problem. They
:12:59. > :13:02.should interrogate people in one place. The cameras should be there.
:13:02. > :13:12.Not arresting people, taking them for torture and then taking them
:13:12. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:19.You're free to travel to the UK, come on a show like HARDtalk and
:13:19. > :13:27.make the most explosive allegations about what is happening inside your
:13:27. > :13:37.country. Does that not point to a government which is not using the
:13:37. > :13:37.
:13:37. > :13:39.same repressive tactics as those we see in Damascus, Libya, Tunisia?
:13:39. > :13:49.Many human-rights defenders were systematically tortured, some were
:13:49. > :13:52.
:13:52. > :13:58.killed. I have been attacked. I have been tortured, kidnapped. My
:13:58. > :14:04.business was burnt. My staff was attacked, my house was attacked.
:14:04. > :14:06.When you say tortured, tortured is year from my house and marched to
:14:06. > :14:16.an unknown place blindfolded, handcuffed, I was tortured and
:14:16. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:29.brought back. What form of torture? Anything from sexual harassment to
:14:29. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:33.beatings while I'm in the car to kicking, pulling hair, punching.
:14:33. > :14:36.John Yates, whom you have suggested you have no faith in, a former
:14:36. > :14:40.senior officer in the Metropolitan Police, says that allegations like
:14:40. > :14:43.the ones you have just made to me, he believes the only thing to do is
:14:43. > :14:46.to go to the authorities, explain what has happened, and he says he
:14:46. > :14:56.is convinced reforms inside the security forces mean that those
:14:56. > :14:59.
:14:59. > :15:03.allegations will be treated seriously from now on. I have tried
:15:03. > :15:12.this. Witnesses of crimes have gone to the police and have been
:15:12. > :15:18.rejected. I hear a complete disbelief in the current
:15:18. > :15:23.government's commitment to reform. Are you not in danger of missing an
:15:23. > :15:26.opportunity? There is no question that the ruling family in Bahrain
:15:26. > :15:29.is divided. King Hamad is torn between a reform-minded Crown
:15:29. > :15:32.Prince encouraging him to be more progressive and become more of a
:15:32. > :15:42.constitutional monarchy, and a Prime Minister who has been a hard
:15:42. > :15:48.
:15:48. > :15:53.line repressive leader for years. If you chose to go down the path of
:15:53. > :15:58.dialogue, and you could expose those divisions. I am supporting a
:15:58. > :16:01.dialogue. I think this is the only solution for the crisis. I do not
:16:01. > :16:09.think fighting with the army will solve the problem. Nor will
:16:09. > :16:13.depending on foreign power. I believe in dialogue. Why don't you
:16:13. > :16:21.talk to the government? You have said that until all political
:16:21. > :16:27.prisoners are released, you will not talk at all to the government.
:16:27. > :16:31.There is no such offer. There is such an offer. Another human rights
:16:31. > :16:36.activist has already said that he will talk to the government and has
:16:36. > :16:40.participated in the Commission overseeing reform implementation.
:16:40. > :16:50.He says it is better to get 40% of what you want from within the tent
:16:50. > :16:53.
:16:53. > :16:58.then 0% outside. Where is the 40%? The things King Hamad is now
:16:58. > :17:08.committed to. Where is it? The government did not sit with the
:17:08. > :17:18.opposition in dialogue. Wefaq, the main Shia opposition party has said
:17:18. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:24.they want to talk. Nobody asked them. Nobody invited them for a
:17:24. > :17:29.dialogue. This is a misleading statement to this news agency and
:17:29. > :17:39.that TV channel. The reality is there is no dialogue. The
:17:39. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:47.government does not accept a dialogue. We have not talked about
:17:47. > :17:50.it much but I did ask you about what the demonstrators are doing in
:17:50. > :17:53.some of the villages around Manama. We have to talk about the degree to
:17:53. > :17:56.which this is a sectarian protest movement. There are indications
:17:56. > :18:06.from some sheikhs in the mosques that Shia sectarianism is driving
:18:06. > :18:08.
:18:08. > :18:14.the opposition to the regime. do you categorise it as sectarian?
:18:14. > :18:19.Is it because the majority of the protesters are Shia? Some of the
:18:19. > :18:26.most radical sentiment is being expressed from the Shia mosques.
:18:27. > :18:36.They have a very clear demand. Do you think they're sectarian?
:18:36. > :18:39.course not. If you ask a government that has power, is that sectarian?
:18:39. > :18:46.If you ask a government to respect human rights and laws, is that
:18:46. > :18:54.sectarian? Sectarian is when you see vigilantes patrolling villages,
:18:54. > :18:58.setting up road blocks and they are 100% Shia. It is violence but it is
:18:58. > :19:02.not sectarian. Those people are blocking roads because they are not
:19:02. > :19:07.allowed by the government to protest peacefully. It they were
:19:07. > :19:10.allowed to protest peacefully there would not block roads. Let me ask
:19:10. > :19:16.you about the international reaction to what has happened in
:19:16. > :19:18.Bahrain over the last 15 months. The US, the UK and other Western
:19:18. > :19:21.governments have expressed concern about the violence but have not
:19:21. > :19:31.indicated that they are close to regarding the Bahraini government
:19:31. > :19:36.
:19:36. > :19:43.as illegitimate. The hypocrisy of the Western governments were
:19:43. > :19:49.exposed here in Bahrain. The double standard of their foreign politics
:19:49. > :19:55.has damaged the reputation and image. I do not think what the
:19:55. > :19:59.British and Americans are doing well help their strategic interests.
:19:59. > :20:09.Is there not a chance that the US is ever going to cut its tyres with
:20:09. > :20:10.
:20:10. > :20:13.that dynasty? They will not do that. If I can describe you as a member
:20:13. > :20:21.of the opposition, there is no prospect that you will get any
:20:21. > :20:25.diplomatic support from the powers that matter? When we started we did
:20:25. > :20:35.not count on support from Britain and America. We did not need it. We
:20:35. > :20:42.
:20:42. > :20:48.said having two different policies for a revolution will not serve you.
:20:48. > :20:55.We count on our own people and our own beliefs. You keep using the
:20:55. > :20:58.word revolution. When that word is heard in Washington, given the fact
:20:58. > :21:08.that Saudi Arabia is next door and Iran is over the water, the last
:21:08. > :21:09.
:21:09. > :21:13.thing they want to see is revolution. Then why talk about
:21:13. > :21:16.democracy and human rights? This is hypocrisy. If it happens in Libya
:21:16. > :21:20.and Syria, you support it because you have bad relations with those
:21:20. > :21:28.guys. But when it comes to Bahrain, the last thing you want to see is
:21:28. > :21:30.people fighting for democracy? Fighting for justice? What are you
:21:30. > :21:40.talking about? Don't talk about values and principles in some
:21:40. > :21:41.
:21:41. > :21:44.places while ignoring them in others. But if this is the reality
:21:44. > :21:47.and that is the nature of Bahrain's strategic position, you as an
:21:47. > :21:57.opposition member, surely the most pragmatic in useful thing you can
:21:57. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:02.do is find avenues to get to common ground with this regime? We are
:22:02. > :22:05.trying our best. But either we have good relations or, we can't ask the
:22:05. > :22:15.British or Americans to listen to us because we do not have oil to
:22:15. > :22:22.
:22:22. > :22:30.give or arms to buy. Those suppressive dictators have more to
:22:30. > :22:37.offer to those democracies than we do. But in the recent past, the US
:22:37. > :22:40.and UK have continued to supply arms to the Bahraini government.
:22:40. > :22:48.While asking the Russians to stop selling arms to Syria. This is
:22:48. > :22:54.hypocrisy! So what do you want from the West? We want them to respect
:22:54. > :22:56.the values they say that they do. Respect the international standard.
:22:56. > :23:02.To have one policy for every revolution and one policy towards
:23:02. > :23:07.all dictators. Not just those dictators you have a problem with
:23:07. > :23:14.but those dictators you had a good relationship with. Bahrain is to
:23:14. > :23:22.host the Formula One motor racing event in April. Should they not do
:23:22. > :23:27.that? Do you want it stopped? should stop out of respect for the
:23:27. > :23:30.Formula One staff who were systematically tortured. If it is
:23:30. > :23:38.not stopped, and Bernie Ecclestone has given no indication it will be,
:23:38. > :23:41.what will happen? We will use the opportunity to protest. There will
:23:41. > :23:46.be many journalists and we will protest everywhere. You will try
:23:46. > :23:53.and disrupt it? We will not spoil the event but we will get the
:23:53. > :23:59.benefit from it. Many people from outside will be coming in. We will
:23:59. > :24:05.protest. You talk about revolution. Will the monarchy in Bahrain be