:00:04. > :00:14.being extradited to the US. That's it from me. Now it is time for
:00:14. > :00:15.
:00:15. > :00:20.My guest today is perhaps the UK's most controversial police officer.
:00:20. > :00:25.A commander in London's Metropolitan Police and a convicted
:00:25. > :00:30.criminal. Ali Dizaei was born in Iran. He studied law in London and
:00:30. > :00:34.became a high flying spokesman for ethnic minority police officers in
:00:34. > :00:40.their London force dogged by accusations of racism. Ali Dizaei
:00:40. > :00:50.portrays himself as a victim. The courts decided he was a rogue cop.
:00:50. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:20.What does his rise and fall say Ali Dizaei, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:20. > :01:23.Good to be here. You were an ambitious and successful career
:01:23. > :01:32.policeman and he might use it as a convicted criminal. How hard is
:01:32. > :01:40.that for you to accept? It is hard. All my life for the last 27 years,
:01:40. > :01:43.I have given my service to the Queen and the country. Three
:01:43. > :01:50.skulduggery and other things, I have managed to get myself
:01:50. > :01:55.convicted. Miscarriage of justice is nothing new in the United
:01:55. > :02:00.Kingdom. They were all convicted very much like me. Ten years'
:02:01. > :02:06.imprisonment, they ended up being apologised to by the British Prime
:02:06. > :02:10.Minister. Is that how you see yourself? You will eventually get
:02:10. > :02:15.an apology from the people at the very top. Last year exactly this
:02:15. > :02:20.time it happened. I was convicted, I was sent to prison, I was
:02:20. > :02:25.vilified and demonised by the tabloid press, extraordinary. I am
:02:25. > :02:31.not the only high-profile civil servant been convicted and then 16-
:02:31. > :02:35.month later, the Court of Appeal and the Justice of Appeal said my
:02:35. > :02:40.conviction was actually unsafe. Remarkably, I was retried again on
:02:40. > :02:43.the words of a convicted fraudster or - or we can say this because he
:02:43. > :02:50.has been convicted since the last trial - and I have been convicted
:02:50. > :02:54.again. That is the point. As you characterised correctly, you had a
:02:54. > :03:00.trial, at you were sentenced to four years, you served 15 months in
:03:00. > :03:05.prison. But was then overturned. There was a retrial and then you
:03:05. > :03:12.were a retrial by a jury of your Peers. By the Court of Appeal. The
:03:13. > :03:19.wonderful thing about this country, we have democratic values and a
:03:19. > :03:24.good Criminal Justice System. to the top. These are serious
:03:24. > :03:31.charges you have been convicted of. Misconduct of just as, for averting
:03:31. > :03:37.the Court of Justice. -- perverting. In the second try, the jury had the
:03:37. > :03:41.key prosecution against you had credibility issues, as you said. It
:03:41. > :03:45.is proving he fording that we claim some benefits, he lied about his
:03:45. > :03:50.personal details. In the end, the jury heard your evidence and his
:03:50. > :04:00.evidence and they decided to to be too fussed about is pretty damning.
:04:00. > :04:02.
:04:02. > :04:06.On the surface, I yes. We can talk about this and people talking out
:04:06. > :04:12.it -- about it being the most heinous crime. I arrested a man
:04:12. > :04:17.outside a cafe. There was no injury, and nobody was killed. There was no
:04:17. > :04:25.loss of life to property. I arrested a bogus an asylum seeker
:04:25. > :04:31.who is now a benefactor and I was sent to prison. You abused your
:04:31. > :04:36.authority. Yes, and the jury found that. But clearly, the jury did not
:04:36. > :04:40.know because the judge did not commit the jury to know that this
:04:40. > :04:45.man is also under investigation for very serious other criminal
:04:45. > :04:49.offences in this country against other British citizens. The Crown
:04:49. > :04:52.Prosecution Service, through all their legal play, managed to
:04:52. > :05:00.convince the judge that that information should be kept away
:05:00. > :05:04.from the jury and that what ahead in their appeal. We will not go
:05:04. > :05:09.down that track. What is interesting that you are the most
:05:09. > :05:14.senior police officer to be sent to prison in a generation. You have
:05:14. > :05:23.been evicted by two different injuries of your appears. Would you
:05:23. > :05:32.accept your police career is absolutely over? -- two juries of
:05:32. > :05:37.copiers. Not necessarily. Last year I was right. I remain absolutely
:05:37. > :05:42.convinced that I would challenge this conviction and I will win and
:05:42. > :05:46.be able to demonstrate that I have been a subject of miscarriage of
:05:46. > :05:51.justice, very much like those names I mentioned earlier on. There are
:05:51. > :05:57.some bizarre twists to this story. Are you electronically tagged at
:05:57. > :06:03.the moment? Yes. Right now as you sit before me, you are wearing some
:06:03. > :06:08.sort of electronic bracelet? Yes, I do. If that is supposed to
:06:08. > :06:12.undermine my confidence and my integrity, it does not. I take
:06:12. > :06:21.inspiration in the words of Shakespeare, who says they tied me
:06:21. > :06:29.to their stakes, I cannot fly high. Battles in Macbeth. -- that was in.
:06:29. > :06:32.It is a credibility issue. I do not know why you insist you can retain
:06:32. > :06:37.credibility as a senior Metropolitan Police officer. Why
:06:37. > :06:43.don't you resign from the police force? That is the easiest thing
:06:43. > :06:48.you can do. But when you are innocent, you do not do that. Look
:06:48. > :06:52.at my four colleagues, Sir Paul Stephenson. Every time there is
:06:52. > :06:56.allegations, allegations of misconduct, the easiest thing you
:06:56. > :07:01.can do is through the town in and say I have done nothing wrong, go
:07:01. > :07:07.and smoke cigars and get your pension. It is damaging the Match,
:07:07. > :07:10.isn't it? You are a damaging the police force. The Independent
:07:10. > :07:20.Police Complaints Commission chicken-and-egg Hardwick, he said
:07:20. > :07:22.
:07:22. > :07:30.the greatest threat to the police force is criminals in uniform. --
:07:30. > :07:36.nick Hardwick. We have challenged their integrity over racism and
:07:36. > :07:41.they way they deal with people of colour in many cases. It was his
:07:41. > :07:46.opportunity to put the boot in. I will not lose much sleep over that
:07:46. > :07:50.nonsense. I have an ongoing appeal and you only have to walk with me
:07:50. > :07:54.through the streets of London. It is not a higher echelons of the
:07:54. > :08:00.matter of the tabloid press who should be judged whether I should
:08:00. > :08:05.remain a police officer. Let us go to some boroughs that have reduced
:08:05. > :08:08.it crime by 30% and increased public confidence. They will come
:08:08. > :08:18.to me and shake my head and say you should stay in the police force
:08:18. > :08:23.because we need policemen like you. So we don't suffer from their races
:08:23. > :08:33.and that we suffer now forced to have you introduce the idea of race
:08:33. > :08:37.
:08:37. > :08:41.is an entire police force. We will come back to that. -- racism. You
:08:41. > :08:47.spent 15 months in prison. Having spent a career locking people up,
:08:47. > :08:53.you were locked up yourself. What is that like? It was like living
:08:53. > :09:01.hell. Like putting a high-profile police officer imprisoned. Nobody
:09:01. > :09:05.was... Hang on. Let us not go over the case again. You were in a
:09:05. > :09:10.position of great authority. You were a senior police officer. You
:09:10. > :09:17.abused the offers, you had to pay the price and that meant serving
:09:17. > :09:22.time in prison. One month solitary confinement? If you had not been in
:09:22. > :09:26.there, you might have faced a real violence. Not really. They put me
:09:26. > :09:30.in solitary confinement to teach me a lesson and to teach other
:09:30. > :09:34.advocates of equality... With all due respect, they probably
:09:34. > :09:39.protected you. You have told stories of how you work assaulted
:09:39. > :09:46.while mixing with prisoners at one point. You were smeared with
:09:46. > :09:50.excrement. It was not a coincidence. My offence, in any objective view,
:09:50. > :09:55.was an offence which made a should have gone to an open prison
:09:55. > :09:59.straight away. I was not put in a open prison. I was put in solitary
:09:59. > :10:03.confinement in a Victorian prison and then I was put in a close
:10:03. > :10:08.condition prison without any proper assessment and as a result, I was
:10:08. > :10:14.very badly assaulted. It was a living hell. The answer to your
:10:14. > :10:19.question. I never lost my hope in clearing my name and I did it. And
:10:19. > :10:26.I would do it again. What went wrong, Ali Dizaei? Everyone thinks
:10:26. > :10:31.about your career trajectory, you came to the UK as an Iranian, you
:10:31. > :10:36.obviously studied here. You were very successful in your early years
:10:36. > :10:42.in the police force. You became as superintended in the Metropolitan
:10:42. > :10:47.Police. You were tipped for high office. For great things. At what
:10:47. > :10:53.point do you think things went wrong? When I refused to be house-
:10:53. > :11:01.trained by my employ not want to me to be talking about
:11:02. > :11:07.the racism I a witness. They said if I kept quiet, you will be a
:11:07. > :11:12.higher officer. But my position... Look at my history. One thing that
:11:12. > :11:16.lurks in the background and rarely gets referred to is how I actually
:11:16. > :11:22.delivered of performance in the streets of London, in terms of
:11:22. > :11:30.detection of crime and public covered its. As soon as I raised my
:11:30. > :11:38.head above everyone and said I will not stand dead, that is when I
:11:38. > :11:43.became targeted. �12 million. My employer has spent in the last ten
:11:43. > :11:48.years trying to prosecute or discipline may. �12 million.
:11:48. > :11:54.problem with this is for a long time, your race, your car, the fact
:11:54. > :12:02.that you are from a minority, did not impact your career. -- your
:12:02. > :12:05.colour. He won on a fast track. Your career began to fall in to
:12:06. > :12:11.trouble. There were allegations spreading that your lifestyle and
:12:11. > :12:18.will conduct was not that expected of a senior officer. My employer
:12:18. > :12:23.put me under intrinsic surveillance for two years. Tapped my telephone
:12:23. > :12:27.calls. It decided that perhaps I should not be going to a night club
:12:27. > :12:31.of their choice, I should be going down to a local pub. That is the
:12:31. > :12:35.gist of the allegations. Why do you think they spent so much money and
:12:35. > :12:40.time investigating you? It was because they had real fears about
:12:40. > :12:44.your conduct and Europe use of Office was a bat was not clearly
:12:44. > :12:48.justified. In every court other than the last one, that was tested
:12:48. > :12:58.before the judges and they found that conduct was completely and
:12:58. > :12:58.
:12:58. > :13:03.utterly unlawful. Andy Hayman, of you said this. He was recently
:13:03. > :13:08.involved in investigations. He said you were at control, a violent
:13:08. > :13:13.bully and liar who abused his position of trust. That is not the
:13:13. > :13:17.same Andy Hayman that you called a dodgy person, did you? If it was,
:13:17. > :13:22.of the hypocrisy is breathtaking. do not know what that has to do
:13:22. > :13:27.with it. He spent a lot of time looking at your behaviour and he
:13:27. > :13:32.concluded that. That operation was masterminded by Andy Hayman and it
:13:32. > :13:37.was found by the Morris inquiry to be a disproportionate, highly
:13:37. > :13:47.irrational investigation which was fuelled by raises them. How could
:13:47. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:54.anyone possibly believe what Andy Hayman has to say? -- racism.
:13:54. > :13:58.speak speak out about what you said was
:13:58. > :14:04.racist within the Metropolitan Police. Not just the Metropolitan
:14:04. > :14:10.Police. I have challenged misuse of race in many public sector
:14:10. > :14:14.organisations. -- issues of race. wonder why so many other people,
:14:14. > :14:19.including black police officers, do not take seriously the idea that
:14:19. > :14:24.you have always been this crusader for the rights of particularly
:14:24. > :14:29.black police officers? That is quite interesting because I was
:14:29. > :14:33.elected, not appointed, I was elected through a ballot by the
:14:33. > :14:36.National Black Police Association executive of 15,000 members. That
:14:36. > :14:42.is their President. If you are going to quote to me one officer
:14:42. > :14:48.who, because of his Angus a interest, has spoken publicly, that
:14:48. > :14:54.is hardly a scientific way to judge how I did. We are talking about the
:14:54. > :14:58.founder and the first to achieve. He sued the Metropolitan Police...
:14:58. > :15:03.He said you used race as a fig-leaf to cover your room going. That is
:15:03. > :15:09.very common, in terms of putting that to people who fight for
:15:09. > :15:14.equality. Often the tabloid press... This is not about anybody. This is
:15:14. > :15:19.the man who founded the by police. He was one of the disgruntled
:15:19. > :15:22.members of the Black Police Association who incidentally sued
:15:22. > :15:27.the Metropolitan Police for race discrimination and won considerable
:15:27. > :15:31.damages. You are not a member of that association any more? We call
:15:31. > :15:36.them and they said you were not a member. As for our as I'm
:15:36. > :15:40.concerned... You would like to be in it but you and not in it they
:15:40. > :15:50.expelled year. Unless I am dismissed from the police service,
:15:50. > :15:54.
:15:54. > :16:00.You have always said you were targeted by the powers at the very
:16:00. > :16:06.top of the Met because of your stand against racism inside the Met.
:16:06. > :16:12.This is dismissed by the people at the top off the Met today, and also
:16:12. > :16:18.by a number of other people who care deeply about race relations
:16:18. > :16:28.inside the M aye. I think he'll are cherry-picking a conversation with
:16:28. > :16:29.
:16:29. > :16:35.one person. It is not to do with a genuine belief that we should have
:16:35. > :16:39.a positive strategy against racism in this country. If what I had done
:16:39. > :16:49.was so much of a fig-leaf, I would not have been commended by Jack
:16:49. > :16:51.
:16:51. > :16:57.Straw. My employer as far as race was concerned said I was
:16:57. > :17:06.exceptional in delivering race Just to get this straight in my
:17:06. > :17:13.head. You are saying that the people you work within the Met from
:17:13. > :17:17.2002 now are guilty of, spreading the cancer of racism. And at the
:17:17. > :17:27.same time you tell me you are desperately eager to go back into
:17:27. > :17:28.
:17:28. > :17:33.this police force. Two these people cancer of racism. If this was a
:17:33. > :17:39.problem in the BBC, would you just throw the towel in and walk away?
:17:39. > :17:45.No, you love your job. I love my job. I am good at what they do. I
:17:45. > :17:51.catch criminals, detect crime and increase public confidence. I have
:17:51. > :17:56.been commended for delivering fine police work. Why shouldn't I want
:17:56. > :18:01.to go back to their job? Because you are a criminal. When you talk
:18:01. > :18:09.about catching criminals, it is difficult when you are a convicted
:18:09. > :18:15.criminal. I accept that, but I will clear my name. I have already clear
:18:15. > :18:21.did once before. All of this hinges on whether I clear my name. I will.
:18:21. > :18:28.I have done it once and I will do it again. Racism spreading like a
:18:28. > :18:35.cancer - let's look at the facts. The Met has had a difficult time
:18:35. > :18:45.with allegations of racism and the murder of Stephen Lawrence, which
:18:45. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:54.talked about institutional racism within the MPS. The number of black
:18:54. > :19:00.police officers in London has risen from 3% to 10%, approximately. The
:19:00. > :19:05.current Commissioner said that racism and racists will not be and
:19:05. > :19:11.are not tolerated in his police force. Those sentiments have been
:19:11. > :19:20.ventilated before. And the figures speak for themselves. No, they do
:19:20. > :19:28.not. An analogy - the Metropolitan Police looks like a pint of
:19:28. > :19:32.Guinness: Black at the bottom, white at the top. You can have many
:19:32. > :19:38.police of colour in the streets of London and die support that. But it
:19:38. > :19:48.in my lifetime in this country we will never see a black or Asian
:19:48. > :19:52.
:19:52. > :19:57.Commissioner. How do you know that? Commissioner. And look what
:19:57. > :20:03.happened to him. He did not have the talent in the end to get
:20:03. > :20:09.anywhere close to the top. I have worked with him and I certainly
:20:09. > :20:14.think he had all the acumen and the credentials to be a Commissioner
:20:14. > :20:19.and certainly a chief constable. He relentlessly applied to be a chief
:20:19. > :20:26.constable in the Midlands and Greater Manchester. The police have
:20:26. > :20:33.made a lot of the inroads in tackling racism. The problem we
:20:33. > :20:38.have is the question of sticky floors. So, what about Mike Fuller,
:20:38. > :20:45.the black chief of police in Kent. He got to the very top in his
:20:45. > :20:54.County. We have been read uprooting people of colour into the police
:20:54. > :21:01.force since 1960s. -- recruiting. And only one chief constable? We
:21:01. > :21:08.have cities like Leicester with Super diversity and you are quoting
:21:08. > :21:12.one black chief constable in 50 years of recruiting. That does not
:21:12. > :21:19.stack up. We have no black chief constables, no assistant
:21:19. > :21:28.commissioners in the Met, despite the fact that by 201560 % of people
:21:28. > :21:34.in London will be from the ethnic minorities. -- by 2015, 60% of the
:21:34. > :21:39.people. I wonder whether part of your mind is thinking: I have
:21:39. > :21:44.betrayed the cause that I truly believe in. By ending up as a
:21:44. > :21:50.convicted criminal when for so long I was the figurehead of the Black
:21:50. > :21:55.Police Association. I have let a whole number of people down. That
:21:55. > :22:03.is the same old chestnut which we started this conversation with, in
:22:03. > :22:08.terms of the circular argument. actually yet this issue down.
:22:08. > :22:15.tall. I am a victim of a miscarriage of justice. They
:22:15. > :22:20.laughed at the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six. Thank God we do
:22:20. > :22:26.not have capital punishment or you may have hung them. And they turned
:22:26. > :22:33.out to be totally innocent people. ICT comfortably telling you that I
:22:33. > :22:38.am innocent and the victim are of a miscarriage of justice. You keep
:22:38. > :22:43.talking about the rotten system which has convicted due. What about
:22:43. > :22:49.Ali Dizaei himself? What have you learned about your failings and
:22:49. > :22:53.weaknesses as a result of this? choose my words carefully. You
:22:53. > :22:59.alluded to the fact that I was born in Iran and I came here as an
:22:59. > :23:05.immigrant. I am heartily grateful as an immigrant it to be given the
:23:05. > :23:10.opportunity to get where I am. When I talk about the system I am not
:23:10. > :23:15.saying that it is all bad or corrupt. In any democratic society
:23:15. > :23:20.you will have miscarriages of justice. Systems occasionally do
:23:20. > :23:25.not work because when you are persecuted, when your employer
:23:25. > :23:29.spends �12 million trying to put you in jail and finally succeeds,
:23:29. > :23:34.you can comfortably say that something is not right. That does
:23:34. > :23:38.not mean that the system of justice in Britain is totally flawed.
:23:38. > :23:43.about your personal flaws? What have you learnt about herself in
:23:43. > :23:50.the last couple of beers? I have never suggested that I can walk on
:23:50. > :23:57.water. I am a human being with the same frailties as anybody else. If
:23:57. > :24:02.I was to put you under intrusive surveillance and listen to your
:24:02. > :24:08.telephone calls for a three-and-a- half years - 3,000 calls - I'm sure
:24:08. > :24:13.I could cherry-pick bits of anyone's private life and feed it
:24:13. > :24:22.to the daily press. I have had to sustain a media lynching for the