:00:12. > :00:15.jailed for 11 years. He started... Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:19.Is there any life left in Kofi Annan's peace plan for Syria? In
:00:19. > :00:22.recent days, Syrian security forces have shown no sign of pulling back
:00:22. > :00:25.from key towns and cities, as envisaged by the UN special envoy
:00:25. > :00:30.Kofi Annan. But as the deadline for disengagement approaches, he
:00:30. > :00:36.refuses to give up hope. The coming hours will be pivotal for the Assad
:00:36. > :00:40.regime and for the Syrian rebels. My guest is Mohammad Bassam Imadi,
:00:40. > :00:47.a former Syrian diplomat now on the foreign relations committee of the
:00:47. > :00:57.Syrian National Council. Does Syria's opposition have a coherent
:00:57. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:27.strategy, and if so, what is it? Mohammad Bassam Imadi, in Istanbul,
:01:27. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:34.welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Let's start with Kofi Annan. He
:01:34. > :01:37.says he remains hopeful that Syrian forces will adhere to his peace
:01:37. > :01:46.plan, that is a ceasefire and disengagement over the next few
:01:46. > :01:51.hours. Do you have any hope? He is a very optimistic man. It is very
:01:51. > :01:54.evident that the regime is not going to abide by his plan at all.
:01:54. > :01:57.They said very frankly that they wanted some conditions to be
:01:57. > :02:04.implemented, these conditions are impossible, so it is very obvious
:02:04. > :02:11.that the regime is not going to abide by the plan. If you are
:02:11. > :02:13.talking about conditions, they seem to have changed somewhat. The
:02:13. > :02:16.Syrian government were talking about getting written assurances
:02:16. > :02:26.from the opposition that your forces will lay down their arms.
:02:26. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:31.They have abandoned that. The foreign minister has said that he
:02:31. > :02:35.was no longer expecting to see these written assurances from your
:02:35. > :02:38.side, so, on that basis, maybe there is room for hope. I have to
:02:38. > :02:42.make it clear that the opposition has no forces. There is a Free
:02:42. > :02:45.Syrian Army which is an entity by itself. Then there is the Syrian
:02:45. > :02:55.National Council which is a political body. These two things
:02:55. > :02:58.
:02:58. > :03:01.are not one body. But we have an advantage that the Free Syrian Army
:03:01. > :03:05.have declared they will abide by the plan, they have given five days,
:03:05. > :03:09.I think, for the Syrian regime to abide by the plan. If not, they
:03:09. > :03:13.will be free to defend themselves. The Free Syrian Army is not an army
:03:13. > :03:21.attacking the regular army, it is an army that is defending itself,
:03:21. > :03:24.defending the cities, and that is the situation. There is a
:03:24. > :03:29.misunderstanding that the Free Syrian Army is trying to attack
:03:29. > :03:33.some barracks or some army units, but that is not true. The beginning
:03:33. > :03:37.of the Free Syrian Army was a few soldiers who defected from the
:03:37. > :03:40.military, and they were targeted by the regime, so they had to run away
:03:40. > :03:50.and find places to hide and defend themselves. Another purpose for the
:03:50. > :04:00.Free Syrian Army was to protect civilians. And this is a little bit
:04:00. > :04:02.
:04:02. > :04:05.chicken and egg. On the other side, Foreign Minister, saying, he said
:04:06. > :04:09.this just a few hours ago, he said the Syrian government has withdrawn
:04:09. > :04:16.army units from some provinces, and terrorism activity, as he described
:04:16. > :04:19.it, escalated and spread into other areas. He is saying that as they
:04:20. > :04:22.pull back forces from some areas, the Free Syrian Army moves in and
:04:22. > :04:28.conducts operations against them. This man has no credibility any
:04:28. > :04:37.more, if he had any in the past. First of all, he said they withdrew
:04:37. > :04:40.some units from some places, in fact, nothing was withdrawn. We
:04:40. > :04:44.should remind everybody that at the beginning, the revolution was very
:04:44. > :04:46.peaceful, the Syrian people refused to hold arms against this regime,
:04:46. > :04:49.they continued for 9-10 months demonstrating very peacefully in
:04:49. > :04:59.the streets, but this oppressive solution that this regime has
:04:59. > :05:00.
:05:00. > :05:03.followed has forced them to hold arms to defend themselves. You must
:05:03. > :05:13.have heard and seen so many videos, very authentic videos, showing
:05:13. > :05:14.
:05:14. > :05:17.massacres and people being killed. We knew very well that there were
:05:17. > :05:20.so many thugs, and the security forces were invading villages,
:05:20. > :05:23.stealing everything, massacring people, raping women, that was too
:05:23. > :05:33.much for the Syrian people to take over ten months. So they started
:05:33. > :05:43.
:05:43. > :05:51.carrying arms. That is one part. I take your point. But I want to be
:05:51. > :05:55.very specific about one particular aspect of the current situation. If
:05:55. > :05:59.there is to be any hope of the ceasefire, the pressure has to be
:05:59. > :06:02.put on Damascus to pull the troops out of the key towns and cities,
:06:02. > :06:05.but the other question is whether you in the political leadership of
:06:05. > :06:08.the Syrian National Council, are clearly telling fighters on the
:06:08. > :06:11.ground, the Free Syrian Army and other rebel fighters as well, that
:06:12. > :06:15.they must stop all of their activities. Are you delivering that
:06:15. > :06:19.message to them? That message is very clear to them. The problem is
:06:19. > :06:22.whether the regular army will stop killing them if they abide by this
:06:22. > :06:26.plan, if they do not shoot at anybody, they have to retaliate
:06:26. > :06:28.when they are shot at, you must have seen yesterday and before
:06:28. > :06:31.yesterday how the regular army attacked or targeted refugees,
:06:31. > :06:35.peaceful refugees crossing the border, seeking refuge in Turkey
:06:35. > :06:43.and yet they were fired at by the regime. The question is not the
:06:43. > :06:47.Free Syrian Army, it is the regular army. It is a big army and it does
:06:47. > :06:52.not want to stop. We cannot ask people not to defend themselves
:06:52. > :06:54.when they are attacked. There is a bigger question about whether Kofi
:06:55. > :07:04.Annan can engineer a dialogue, negotiation, between the opposition
:07:05. > :07:14.
:07:14. > :07:18.forces and the Syrian government. Let us be clear, is the Syrian
:07:18. > :07:28.National Council prepared to talk to the Assad regime? This is a very
:07:28. > :07:34.
:07:34. > :07:38.important point. Everybody has been falling in the trap of the regime.
:07:38. > :07:41.The Arab plan, as well as the Kofi Annan plan, had two items that were
:07:41. > :07:44.supposed to be implemented first, which is a ceasefire and
:07:44. > :07:47.withdrawing the army from the cities. Before doing that, there is
:07:47. > :07:51.no possibility for any dialogue, you cannot have a dialogue with a
:07:51. > :07:56.pistol pointed at your head. These two items, these things have never
:07:56. > :07:59.been agreed with by the regime. How can we move on from one phase to
:07:59. > :08:05.another when the army is still there, still killing people,
:08:05. > :08:11.attacking everybody, and also arresting everybody. You keep
:08:11. > :08:21.coming back to the point about the continued violence. I take that
:08:21. > :08:24.
:08:24. > :08:27.point. But let us assume that Kofi Annan is right in his optimistic
:08:27. > :08:31.assessment that in the next few hours, there is a prospect of
:08:31. > :08:38.Syrian forces being pulled back. I want to know if that disengagement
:08:38. > :08:43.can be achieved, are you prepared to talk to the Assad regime? We are
:08:44. > :08:47.talking about things in the future that one cannot make sure of. If
:08:47. > :08:50.the regime stops the violence, then there is the prospect of the
:08:50. > :08:56.opposition sitting and discussing the transition period, that is not
:08:56. > :09:06.a difficult thing. We know that in every war, in every conflict, at
:09:06. > :09:18.
:09:18. > :09:22.the end, there should be a political solution. That is very
:09:22. > :09:26.important, because back in January, you said this, and I am quoting,
:09:26. > :09:29."We in the opposition will never accept to sit at the same table as
:09:29. > :09:34.this killer", by which of course you meant Bashar al-Assad. You have
:09:34. > :09:38.changed your position. It is not a change of position. We did not
:09:38. > :09:41.expect him to sit at the table anyway. We are very realistic, and
:09:42. > :09:46.we are now trying to discuss a hypothetical situation which in our
:09:46. > :09:49.mind, will never happen. This regime would never give up, would
:09:49. > :09:52.never follow any peaceful solution, because at any moment that the
:09:52. > :09:56.troops are all withdrawn from the cities, they know that hundreds of
:09:56. > :09:57.thousands would demonstrate in the streets, we have only the example
:09:58. > :10:03.of Hama, where peaceful demonstrations were allowed,
:10:03. > :10:08.hundreds of thousands of people came into the street. That is the
:10:08. > :10:14.situation on the ground. Discussing hypothetical questions is not
:10:14. > :10:17.useful at this moment. You are a former Syrian diplomat. You know in
:10:17. > :10:27.the end that language and tone, these things are very important. I
:10:27. > :10:28.
:10:28. > :10:33.suspect that you have changed your tone a little bit. The Russians
:10:33. > :10:36.have said in the last 24 hours they would like to host a conference to
:10:36. > :10:39.prepare for the national dialogue that Kofi Annan has talked so much
:10:39. > :10:46.about. Would you be prepared to send a delegation to Moscow to
:10:46. > :10:49.attend that sort of negotiation? Also a hypothetical question, if
:10:49. > :10:52.the conditions are right, then I think that the Syrian National
:10:52. > :11:02.Council will participate in negotiations for the transitional
:11:02. > :11:08.
:11:08. > :11:11.period. If the conference has the right conditions, when all
:11:11. > :11:15.conditions are met, it is not a problem to sit and discuss the
:11:15. > :11:22.phase to come after the stepping down of the president. The Russians
:11:22. > :11:25.didn't say anything about the stepping down of the President.
:11:25. > :11:30.they want to host a conference, they must take into consideration
:11:30. > :11:36.the desires of the other parties. They are representing the Syrian
:11:36. > :11:40.regime in what they are doing, also in delivering arms and support.
:11:40. > :11:43.Let's make this as simple as possible, you are saying that in
:11:43. > :11:50.your opinion, there is no possibility of an end to the
:11:50. > :11:56.violence, an end to the conflict, until Assad and his regime are gone.
:11:56. > :12:04.This is not our condition, it is his condition. They will not move
:12:04. > :12:14.from power until he's forced to do so. It is not our condition, it is
:12:14. > :12:16.
:12:16. > :12:18.their demand. The problem with this regime is that it is based on power
:12:18. > :12:22.and strength and violence and corruption and the security forces
:12:22. > :12:26.and army. If you remove any of those faces, the whole regime will
:12:26. > :12:36.collapse. They have committed so many crimes already they know they
:12:36. > :12:40.
:12:40. > :12:46.will go to the Hague. What will it take to remove him? It will take
:12:46. > :12:49.one of two things. Either the revolution continues until the
:12:49. > :12:53.people achieve their freedom, or the Syrian people will have some
:12:53. > :12:56.assistance from the world community which has been so passive so far in
:12:56. > :13:06.perhaps establishing a buffer zone, or some kind od intervention that
:13:06. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:15.would stop the bloodshed in Syria. -- of intervention. You have
:13:15. > :13:21.changed your position. Last year you did not want outside military
:13:21. > :13:24.intervention. Now you personally are calling for international
:13:24. > :13:34.protection of civilians in buffer zones, and you know that cannot
:13:34. > :13:36.
:13:37. > :13:40.happen without military It is not military intervention on
:13:40. > :13:48.the lines of the type in Libya. There was a no-fly zone on the
:13:48. > :13:51.north of Iraq for some time. That type of no-fly zone could be
:13:52. > :14:00.protected by the Free Syrian Army. You do not need to send a foreign
:14:00. > :14:03.army. We can do the job. You are being economical with reality.
:14:03. > :14:06.Given the deployment of Syrian forces in the towns and cities
:14:07. > :14:15.across the country that you have referred to in this interview, it
:14:15. > :14:21.is obvious that to create buffer zones, you will have to bomb them.
:14:21. > :14:31.Is that what you want? The Free Syrian Army has been able to take
:14:31. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:47.some areas inside Syria. It is astonishing that so few soldiers
:14:47. > :14:51.could have opposed this regular army. They could do the same in the
:14:51. > :14:54.buffer zone. I have been in contact with officers in the Free Syrian
:14:54. > :15:02.Army and they have been telling me that they just need air protection.
:15:02. > :15:05.You talk about it is if it is just a simple thing to deliver. The
:15:05. > :15:09.United States has made it clear that the idea of sending US forces
:15:09. > :15:12.as part of an international air force to bomb Syria's tanks and
:15:12. > :15:22.heavy artillery is an escalation that they feel would be unwise and
:15:22. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:28.deeply unacceptabl. That is why we are not asking them to do that.
:15:28. > :15:33.have given up on them. We have given up on intervention. What we
:15:33. > :15:37.are talking about is simpler. The reason why the regular army has
:15:37. > :15:47.been able to beat the Free Syrian Army out of those areas is because
:15:47. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:55.it used helicopters and because it used immense power. The Free Syrian
:15:55. > :15:58.Army had no more ammunition to defend themselves. If you think
:15:58. > :16:02.about the buffer zone in a different way, it is another thing.
:16:02. > :16:12.Some weapons were given to the Free Syrian Army. They should be given
:16:12. > :16:14.
:16:14. > :16:21.more. The ability to themselves, at least. I am not talking out of my
:16:21. > :16:25.own experience. We have got good experience with the regular army.
:16:26. > :16:28.This regular army is not fighting the way that any army would fight.
:16:28. > :16:31.They are compelled to fight their fellow-citizens and their fellow
:16:31. > :16:35.army who defected from them. raise an interesting question about
:16:35. > :16:45.the Free Syrian Army. You refer to it as being a separate entity from
:16:45. > :16:48.
:16:48. > :16:52.their national council. I have seen it reported that the Free Syrian
:16:52. > :16:56.Army needs $1 million a day to sustain itself. We know that Saudi
:16:56. > :16:59.Arabia and Qatar are pouring money in. They know that you are getting
:16:59. > :17:02.limited non-lethal support from the United States and the UK government
:17:02. > :17:08.and others too. Who is in control here? Is it the former generals,
:17:08. > :17:10.the dissident generals who are running the Free Syrian Army?
:17:10. > :17:20.are talking about money or assistance pouring in, this is
:17:20. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:28.exaggerated. That was not the question. You are asking who is
:17:28. > :17:32.leading. It is a group of very able officers who are running the Free
:17:32. > :17:39.Syrian Army. This is outside Syria. Inside Syria, there is the local
:17:39. > :17:42.military council. The north, the south, the middle, these are
:17:42. > :17:47.councils that are co-ordinating with the leadership on the Turkish
:17:47. > :17:52.border. They have got some strong co-ordination and some freedom in
:17:52. > :18:02.what they do. At the end of the day, I know very well that they have a
:18:02. > :18:03.
:18:03. > :18:12.chain of command. They can be proven to be one entity. Something
:18:12. > :18:22.has changed. You told the AFP news agency that your agency had lost
:18:22. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:31.I did not say that. I remember very well but at that time, the Free
:18:31. > :18:35.Syrian Army was not so well- organised as it is now. I'll tell
:18:35. > :18:45.you what the reason is, at that time, it was not as militarised as
:18:45. > :18:49.
:18:49. > :18:54.it is now. People started to realise that it is very important
:18:54. > :19:04.for them to start working on military lines. You said something
:19:04. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:08.interesting. You used the word eager. It seems that now there is
:19:08. > :19:10.an eagerness on the opposition's part to make this a fully-fledged
:19:10. > :19:19.military confrontation. You have ruled out the diplomatic path.
:19:19. > :19:22.These things impose themselves. When you see so many massacres, in
:19:22. > :19:27.Baba Amr, in Damascus, in every city, you realise that there is
:19:27. > :19:37.only one way to fight this regime and that is by countering it by the
:19:37. > :19:37.
:19:37. > :19:40.same method, violence. We know the scale of the violence. When people
:19:40. > :19:43.look at the situation from the outside, one big problem that they
:19:43. > :19:48.see when addressing the needs and the demands of the Syrian
:19:48. > :19:58.opposition is a lack of unity. They have seen, in the recent past, you
:19:58. > :20:02.
:20:02. > :20:05.have lost some key figures who have walked out in disgust. One man
:20:05. > :20:08.spoke about chaos and a lack of clarity in your organisation.
:20:08. > :20:11.Another highly respected political prisoner and activist and ruler of
:20:11. > :20:17.opposition movements said the SNC is incapable of meeting the
:20:17. > :20:21.aspirations of the Syrian people. He said it was being run
:20:21. > :20:31.essentially in the interest of the Muslim Brotherhood. First of all,
:20:31. > :20:36.
:20:36. > :20:39.let me say that these are not key figures. This is something else.
:20:39. > :20:42.Politicians that were very active in the Spring of Damascus have
:20:43. > :20:52.nothing to do with the revolution. This was started from the
:20:53. > :20:56.
:20:56. > :21:04.grassroots. You are talking about the leadership of the Syrian
:21:04. > :21:07.National Council. This is another matter. A few people did not like
:21:07. > :21:09.the leadership and they walked out and demanded restructuring. That
:21:09. > :21:14.restructuring is taking place. A committee has been established
:21:14. > :21:17.which includes the same people who walked out. There will be another
:21:17. > :21:20.conference in one or two weeks in order to bring everybody together.
:21:20. > :21:27.The SNC and other figures are working very hard. It is
:21:27. > :21:34.interesting. You sound so confident about that. You are a diplomat and
:21:34. > :21:44.you worked for the Assad regime. You switched sides. You have joined
:21:44. > :21:45.
:21:45. > :21:49.the opposition. You are no fan of the Islamist agenda and the Muslim
:21:49. > :21:52.Brotherhood or you would not have worked for the Assad regime for so
:21:52. > :21:58.long. Are you worried about the dominant influence of the Islamists
:21:58. > :22:02.inside the SNC? Let me correct this. You are making switching sides
:22:02. > :22:05.sound so terrible. There is an important difference between being
:22:05. > :22:09.a diplomat and a politician. Diplomats do not make decisions.
:22:09. > :22:13.Politicians make decisions. I was not working for the regime, I was
:22:13. > :22:20.working in the government. Hundreds of thousands were working in the
:22:20. > :22:24.government. You cannot say that all of them were working for the regime.
:22:24. > :22:29.You can only do the best you can. Sometimes you do not do what you
:22:29. > :22:33.are told and that is why I resigned. You have not answered my question.
:22:33. > :22:43.Are you happy that the Islamists are increasingly dominant in your
:22:43. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:46.movement? If they are dominant, this is another matter. The SNC has
:22:46. > :22:56.only one representative of the Muslim Brotherhood out of 11
:22:56. > :22:59.
:23:00. > :23:03.members. Only one of them is a representative of the Muslim
:23:03. > :23:07.Brotherhood. There are so many people in the SNC and most of them
:23:07. > :23:12.are living outside Syria. That is what makes up the SNC. There will
:23:12. > :23:15.be another SNC elected from inside Syria. This is a transitional body
:23:16. > :23:23.at the moment that is doing something that was asked by the
:23:23. > :23:31.revolutionaries, present them to the external world. One final
:23:31. > :23:34.thought. You have made it plain throughout this interview that you
:23:34. > :23:43.believe peace, stability, freedom can only come when the Assad regime
:23:43. > :23:47.is toppled. Let me quote to you the words of the foreign minister in
:23:47. > :23:51.Moscow. Even if the opposition is armed to the teeth, it won't defeat
:23:51. > :23:53.the Syrian army but there will be slaughter for many years, a mutual
:23:53. > :24:02.destruction. He, unfortunately, is probably going to be right, isn't
:24:02. > :24:05.he? Syria is not a violent country. We are peace-loving people. They
:24:05. > :24:09.waited ten months before they took up arms. People want to live in
:24:09. > :24:19.peace. People do not want violence. People want to have their freedom