:00:12. > :00:16.minutes. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:19.From Syria, to Sri Lanka, to Russia, there are journalists ready to put
:00:19. > :00:22.themselves in harm's way to shine a light on some of the darkest
:00:22. > :00:26.corners of conflict, crime and corruption. What makes them do it?
:00:26. > :00:30.And what difference do they make? I speak to British photo journalist
:00:30. > :00:33.Paul Conroy who was wounded in the Syrian army's bombardment of the
:00:33. > :00:36.city of Homs last February which killed his Sunday Times colleague
:00:36. > :00:46.Marie Colvin. When, if ever, is telling the story worth risking
:00:46. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:18.your life? Paul Conroy, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:18. > :01:26.Thank you. It is very good to see you, but how is your health? I had
:01:26. > :01:30.some small shrapnel injuries that were taking care. It is slowly
:01:30. > :01:35.coming together, it is slightly prone to infection but they are
:01:35. > :01:42.making progress. They are cutting the dead meat out as it starts to
:01:42. > :01:45.seal up. Another month or two. sound very matter of fact. When we
:01:45. > :01:49.are thinking about what you have been through it is not just a
:01:49. > :01:58.question of the physical injuries, it is eight weeks on - how are the
:01:58. > :02:03.mental scars? At the moment - I got out and I launched myself into
:02:03. > :02:07.keeping busy, rather than sitting back and reflecting. I have been
:02:07. > :02:14.assured it will come, that point were a stop and... At the moment I
:02:14. > :02:20.just keep busy, writing, doing interviews. Really just not
:02:20. > :02:24.reflecting too much is the advice I have been given by professionals.
:02:24. > :02:29.suspect for the next 20 minutes I may have to break that rule and ask
:02:29. > :02:34.you to reflect on what you went through because the very obvious
:02:34. > :02:38.opener in terms of casting your mind back is this one - that you
:02:38. > :02:41.and the other journalists, including Marie Colvin, who chose
:02:41. > :02:47.to going to Homs at a time when it was under siege, you knew what
:02:47. > :02:53.you're getting yourself into? Absolutely. We were under no
:02:53. > :02:59.illusions about what was happening in Homs. The videos came out, they
:02:59. > :03:03.were on YouTube. They lose a lot of strength when they are televised
:03:03. > :03:10.because it is always with a precursor - this can't be confirmed
:03:10. > :03:16.or this can't be verified. In the world's I, the moment you put "this
:03:16. > :03:24.can't be verified", it opens it up to misinterpretation by everybody,
:03:24. > :03:28.and the regime works on that. I think it is not enough. If it needs
:03:28. > :03:33.verification then it is a sad state of affairs - it is sad that we need
:03:33. > :03:43.people to go in it and actually be Western and the official
:03:43. > :03:46.journalists to make it real... will talk more about that, the
:03:46. > :03:49.relationship between Western journalists and activist, because
:03:49. > :03:53.you were very involved with local people. Talking over the events
:03:53. > :03:59.that fell upon you in February. Getting in was difficult because it
:03:59. > :04:04.was around at a new wanted to get into a besieged area. It was
:04:04. > :04:07.besieged by tanks and heavy artillery. I wonder whether you and
:04:07. > :04:17.Marie Colvin - you were working together - were you really honest
:04:17. > :04:18.
:04:18. > :04:25.with each other about the scale of the risks you are running -- you
:04:25. > :04:29.were running? We got in it at around midnight through some very
:04:29. > :04:34.precarious situations. The first time we got in - you go through a
:04:34. > :04:43.three kilometre tunnel and there is a walk. You can hear it, you know
:04:43. > :04:49.the risks are mounting. We spent two Mods in Ms rata together. --
:04:49. > :04:52.two-month. We had worked together in those conditions. We thought we
:04:52. > :05:00.were going into another MS Ra to a situation. We both went "well, we
:05:00. > :05:07.have done it before, let's do it again". Arriving in Syria at
:05:07. > :05:12.daybreak, we realised it was on another scale. At that point, did
:05:12. > :05:22.you and she looked at each other and say, will "this may have been a
:05:22. > :05:27.
:05:27. > :05:34.mistake" was that no, we never thought that. -- mistake? We were
:05:34. > :05:38.glad to be in. You got access to places very few other journalists
:05:38. > :05:44.got to. You're at the centre of a story the world cared about a great
:05:44. > :05:48.deal. There is this balance - a trade-off of great danger. You
:05:48. > :05:52.served in the military, you have been a photojournalist for 20 years,
:05:52. > :05:56.ready to go to dangerous places, but I assume, you have never gone
:05:56. > :06:02.into a place thinking that there is a probability that you may get
:06:02. > :06:08.wounded or even killed. Surely, you can't think that, can you?
:06:08. > :06:12.never think that. When I left for this trip everyone was saying they
:06:12. > :06:16.didn't feel good about it - it was really dangerous. You don't think
:06:16. > :06:21.you are bullet-proof but obviously you think if anything will happen
:06:21. > :06:27.it won't be to you. That is the mental state you have to have. You
:06:27. > :06:31.can't go into these places thinking that you are going to die. You take
:06:31. > :06:36.what precautions you can, you take all of the advice and soak up
:06:37. > :06:41.information about the situation but you can't go into these places -
:06:41. > :06:45.you can't go in thinking that, it would kill you. When your mind goes
:06:45. > :06:51.on to that you are more at risk because you are less aware of your
:06:51. > :06:56.environment. You saw the most terrible things in Syria, because
:06:56. > :07:01.this was the height of the period of bombardment when the Syrian army
:07:01. > :07:08.outside the neighbourhood was sending in heavy fire. It went on
:07:08. > :07:13.for days. Do you now think you should have left earlier? We went
:07:13. > :07:18.in twice. The first time we reported, we reported from a field
:07:19. > :07:23.hospital. In the end the decision was taken out of our hands. The
:07:23. > :07:28.activists and the Free Syrian Army told us that they had information
:07:28. > :07:36.there would be a land invasion. They got on smack out through the
:07:36. > :07:39.tunnel, it was very hasty -- they got us out. There was a real fear
:07:39. > :07:45.that the troops were coming in that night, there would be a sort. We
:07:45. > :07:52.got out in a hurry. We spent about three days outside in a village
:07:52. > :07:56.close by trying to get angles we could cover the story from. We
:07:56. > :08:06.couldn't communicate with the next city - that's how bad the situation
:08:06. > :08:14.
:08:14. > :08:18.was. We decided to go back into Baba Amr. Obviously with the people
:08:18. > :08:24.lie dead, the people wounded - it would be good to have that
:08:24. > :08:30.hindsight. We knew what we were getting ourselves into, hopefully
:08:30. > :08:34.it was making a difference. That is why that path was taken. So much of
:08:34. > :08:38.what you say is fascinating. I think people around the world would
:08:38. > :08:41.think carefully about the phrases you are using. You hoped you were
:08:41. > :08:46.making a difference, you were getting the story. As you look back
:08:46. > :08:56.now, eight weeks later, do you think you made a difference was
:08:56. > :08:59.
:08:59. > :09:04.that I think we did. I hope we did. What was happening before -
:09:04. > :09:10.unfortunately, we wait for an atrocity. Sadly, with Marie Colvin
:09:10. > :09:16.dying and my situation, the situation in that city hopefully
:09:16. > :09:21.took things to another level of awareness. In at tragic way, with
:09:21. > :09:31.Marie Colvin, because she was so well known and well respected. Her
:09:31. > :09:35.I have attempted to keep that light shining. I would like to dig into
:09:35. > :09:38.your analysis of what is happening in Syria today because you have
:09:38. > :09:45.connections and contacts. To finish with this story that you have been
:09:45. > :09:49.through in the last few weeks - your luck ran out on February 22nd.
:09:49. > :09:58.That is when the direct fire landed on the house you were using as a
:09:58. > :10:03.media safe house. Marie Colvin was killed instantly? Yes. We took
:10:03. > :10:10.three hits on the house. It was the fourth Shell where the back wall
:10:10. > :10:19.fell in, I think one of the upper walls were hit and it was chaos.
:10:19. > :10:24.Blackness. Concrete dust. Many injuries. Other people were killed.
:10:25. > :10:34.Other wounded journalists. Syrians as well. Shrapnel and broken bones.
:10:35. > :10:44.
:10:44. > :10:47.Our ran -- our Trans later had his arm snapped. The two met
:10:47. > :10:55.journalists I was with died instantly, there is no doubt about
:10:55. > :10:57.that. I caught the edge of the blast. You say you feel the need to
:10:57. > :11:03.ask I ask
:11:03. > :11:06.ask you one more question - Ma Colvin was dead and you were in a
:11:06. > :11:15.bad situation, wounded in the lake. You needed to get out but you were
:11:15. > :11:21.stuck there for several more days. out, safe passage for you to leave
:11:21. > :11:24.that terrible situation and you refused to take it.
:11:24. > :11:29.name name names, but when the Red
:11:29. > :11:32.Crescent came to the House the Free Syrian Army were naturally
:11:32. > :11:37.they had been allowed in. a
:11:37. > :11:41.a lot of commotion. Eventually one of the people from the Red Crescent
:11:41. > :11:46.entered the room that the four journalists were in and he said "if
:11:46. > :11:53.you want my advice you will wait for at the International Red Cross
:11:53. > :11:57.and the diplomatic presence. I have been were ordered by my government
:11:57. > :12:03.to enter over to security forces at the gates of the city. If you want
:12:03. > :12:06.my advice, you will wait for the Red Cross".put
:12:06. > :12:13.you in a difficult situation. I suppose the only problem with the
:12:13. > :12:16.decision you talk is that the Red Cross were not coming - in the end,
:12:16. > :12:20.you were smuggled out by helpers and activis
:12:21. > :12:26.alongside you. In the cause of that, by not taking the Red Crescent
:12:26. > :12:30.option, we or so Syrian people who were
:12:30. > :12:37.helping, not just you, but the number of wounded people to get out,
:12:37. > :12:41.were killed in that dangerous operation. That must be difficult.
:12:41. > :12:50.That is very difficult. I don't think there is a day that goes by
:12:50. > :12:54.we don't think of those people. I out, nobody was killed, but the
:12:54. > :13:00.tunnel was attacked. I think this goes back to the heart of what we
:13:00. > :13:10.do and why just people - casual people - these
:13:10. > :13:10.
:13:10. > :13:14.were people we had a relationship with. They took us in, they fed us.
:13:14. > :13:20.They understand, because of their situation. They understand the need
:13:20. > :13:30.to get the story out from a Western journalist. It is difficult, no
:13:30. > :13:31.
:13:31. > :13:41.doubt. I don't sit and think"if we had an air ambulance, people would
:13:41. > :13:42.
:13:42. > :13:48.be alive ". People understand we are risking a lot by going in. We
:13:48. > :13:58.knew the people who took us-mac out. They were not just individuals.
:13:58. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:07.telling ambulance". That was long before an
:14:07. > :14:14.ambulance arrived. It's difficult, from
:14:14. > :14:20.from local them They're doing video journalism,
:14:20. > :14:24.photography. In a way, by associating with people like you
:14:24. > :14:34.enormous da enormous danger. I wondered if,
:14:34. > :14:37.
:14:37. > :14:46.sometimes, you felt that your I am sure prisons did make it worse.
:14:46. > :14:52.house house was attacked. It is very
:14:52. > :15:00.difficult for people on the outside to see the perspective that we had.
:15:00. > :15:08.These people were taking us through the backstreets. If we told them
:15:08. > :15:18.that we were putting them in danger they would have laughed. Another
:15:18. > :15:18.
:15:18. > :15:28.Syrian military. It is possible he is undergoing a very difficult
:15:28. > :15:37.
:15:37. > :15:47.situation. It feels strange to be war special ones are made. Are you
:15:47. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :16:01.observer? Absolutely. But I could not exactly come in and ask the
:16:01. > :16:06.Syrian army if I could watch them at shelling Baba Amr. But you have
:16:06. > :16:16.to stay impartial. It is quite easy to stay impartial. I am a
:16:16. > :16:18.
:16:18. > :16:23.photographer. I've put up what I saw and I photographed that. Can
:16:23. > :16:32.you look at a picture of a day that child and asked if that is
:16:32. > :16:42.impartial journalism? Maybe if I had taken it from a different angle,
:16:42. > :16:44.
:16:44. > :16:53.were some very striking things written after Euro Colley died. --
:16:53. > :17:00.your colleagues. Someone said that they were troubled by the amount of
:17:00. > :17:02.coverage given to what had happened to Western journalists. He said
:17:02. > :17:12.there was something faintly colonialisting.
:17:12. > :17:18.We have bee to the war correspondent being a hero that
:17:18. > :17:28.they have become more important than the people they report on. Do
:17:28. > :17:29.
:17:29. > :17:34.you agree on him a? I agree with him. I wish it did not happen. I
:17:34. > :17:44.would much rather talk about the women and children sitting under
:17:44. > :17:52.mortar fire mortar firech of what they suffered. I have a small
:17:52. > :18:02.level of suffering in comparison. I understand the mediathe media
:18:02. > :18:03.
:18:03. > :18:11.more or safe headlines. But I do not think that is good. Because you
:18:11. > :18:16.have spent a long time observing the Free Syrian Army, do you
:18:16. > :18:22.believe they are a credible and coherent fomme I
:18:22. > :18:27.spoke to a senior figure inside the Syrian National Council. He said
:18:27. > :18:35.that if only more resources could go to these people they would be
:18:35. > :18:45.able to get rid of the Assad regime. Do you believe that? Were
:18:45. > :18:52.
:18:52. > :19:02.artistically even if it could be developed. -- logistically. As an
:19:02. > :19:02.
:19:02. > :19:09.armed force in Homs they worked To take that on to the scale needed
:19:09. > :19:19.to take dowime would be incredibly difficult. They would
:19:19. > :19:25.
:19:25. > :19:32.They are very localised. Whereas in Libya the heavy weaponry was in --
:19:32. > :19:42.available. And from what you have seen of the civilian population and
:19:42. > :19:50.
:19:50. > :19:57.that President Assad can impose his will and authority on Syria? No. I
:19:57. > :20:07.think the genie is out of the bottle. Regardless of the strength
:20:07. > :20:13.
:20:13. > :20:23.these people would rather die than go back. There is a long tire
:20:23. > :20:24.
:20:24. > :20:31.before an end game is reached in The regime is holding on in the
:20:31. > :20:39.only way they can. They cannot go back. I also want to reflect a
:20:39. > :20:43.little bit more on your profession. Reporting. It seems to me that
:20:43. > :20:51.have more a have more and more of the material
:20:51. > :20:58.we are consuming internationally coming from young, local people who
:20:58. > :21:04.are not trained journalists. They are activists with a cause. He
:21:04. > :21:14.worked alongside them. You have spoken very highly of them. But
:21:14. > :21:16.
:21:16. > :21:26.what is it doing to journalism? were being presented with the
:21:26. > :21:29.
:21:29. > :21:39.videos of what happens. We took these videos and checked them.
:21:39. > :21:42.were fake. They were told that that was what was happeni
:21:42. > :21:49.was what was happening. I have seen the work of a courageous young man,
:21:49. > :21:59.a Syrian a Syrian that conflict area who has admitted that
:21:59. > :22:05.in one particular shot he a smoke
:22:05. > :22:13.smoke and make more dramatic. It is rely
:22:13. > :22:23.rely on everything we are currently seeing. We cannot simply. That is
:22:23. > :22:23.
:22:23. > :22:30.why these videos cannot be verified. That is where the gate weakened.
:22:30. > :22:38.There is al There is aluse for doubt. -- they get weekend. And that is
:22:38. > :22:45.why there will always be people like you. We have to be able to
:22:45. > :22:53.come out and make sense of what we are seeing. People still have to go
:22:53. > :22:57.in and do it on those level. Would you be prepared to testify before
:22:57. > :23:03.any sort of International Criminal Court or tribunal if President
:23:03. > :23:13.Assad and some of his people were ever brought to a tribunal? I would
:23:13. > :23:13.
:23:13. > :23:18.civilian civilian homes being destroyed, yes.
:23:18. > :23:22.Even if the reporters Without borders organisation said that if
:23:22. > :23:29.journalists in war zone are now seen as aids to international call-
:23:29. > :23:39.ups, the job will become almost impossible. To the job is almost
:23:39. > :23:39.
:23:40. > :23:44.impossible anyway. Journalists are so targeted. It is changing. The
:23:44. > :23:51.days of being able to go up to roadsides are long gone.
:23:51. > :23:58.Journalists are watched. brilliant war photographer before
:23:58. > :24:02.Europe Day said it at the end of his career he had had enough. He
:24:02. > :24:07.said he wanted to photograph landscapes and flowers. I am
:24:07. > :24:14.sentencing myself to peace. Are you ready to sentence yourself to
:24:14. > :24:24.peace? I am not quite ready. you going to go back to convict?
:24:24. > :24:29.
:24:29. > :24:33.That is what is it me through this. is what I t