:00:14. > :00:21.In this poster part-paid South Africa losing its status as the
:00:21. > :00:26.dominant power? As economic growth transforms the Continent, could
:00:26. > :00:30.suffer Africa be losing its way? From left and right, black and
:00:30. > :00:35.white, there are questions about the effectiveness of the current
:00:35. > :00:40.generation of leaders. My guest today is the last white president,
:00:40. > :00:50.FW de Klerk, a Co recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize with a Nelson
:00:50. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:20.Mandela. Is the Rainbow nation FW de Klerk, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:20. > :01:25.When you look at the fast-changing continent of Africa today, do you
:01:25. > :01:33.believe that South Africa still has the right to regard itself as a
:01:33. > :01:38.leader in political and economic terms? I think South Africa is
:01:38. > :01:43.still the leading country, but as an African, I welcome the fact that
:01:43. > :01:49.so many other countries are coming to the fork. It is what the
:01:49. > :01:53.Continent needs. The Continent and needs stable governments, economic
:01:53. > :02:01.growth, in East Africa, in central Africa, in West Africa, Southern
:02:01. > :02:07.Africa. Although it South Africa has been fought so long the leading
:02:07. > :02:12.country, it is a good thing that there is competition. It is a good
:02:12. > :02:22.thing for Africans that there is growth and more democracy and more
:02:22. > :02:27.stability. But it is not give South Africa itself is in a place which
:02:27. > :02:35.is quite a native. Politics is stuck. There is a form of one-party
:02:35. > :02:41.rule even though within a democracy and where economic growth is not
:02:41. > :02:47.equal with your neighbours. May I just say, as other countries, to
:02:47. > :02:51.the forefront, surf Africa benefits too. Intra trade in Africa is
:02:51. > :02:57.growing dramatically. Companies are doing extremely well throughout
:02:57. > :03:02.Africa. What is happening in the rest of Africa is helping its staff
:03:02. > :03:08.Africa to continue to grow economically although not at a
:03:08. > :03:14.higher rate. -- South Africa. Yes, we have serious problems. How
:03:14. > :03:19.democracy looks good on paper. But it is not a healthy democracy. They
:03:19. > :03:24.democracy in which one party has 65% of the growth is not help --
:03:24. > :03:29.65% of the votes is not healthy. You only achieve that balance when
:03:29. > :03:39.you are no longer sure who will win the next election. We have not had
:03:39. > :03:39.
:03:39. > :03:43.that since 1994. It will only come about once the alliance divides.
:03:43. > :03:49.spoke there about the institution of the party. What about the
:03:50. > :03:54.calibre of individual leaders? Are you walked alongside Nelson Mandela.
:03:54. > :03:59.-- you worked alongside. When you look at Jacob Zuma, the President
:03:59. > :04:07.of South Africa, if you see and leader who is capable of giving
:04:08. > :04:11.South Africa at the political leadership that it needs? In a
:04:11. > :04:19.democracy, leaders are judged by the electorate in the final
:04:19. > :04:24.analysis. They are judged by the members of parties, and the ANC is
:04:24. > :04:28.considering at the moment whether they should continue with President
:04:28. > :04:36.Jacob Zuma as leader or not. There is a possible leadership struggle
:04:36. > :04:41.looming. You recently said the ANZ has lost its compass. I do think
:04:41. > :04:46.that. But I would not play made just on the President. I am not
:04:46. > :04:52.defending him. I wrote her think he has made some serious mistakes. I
:04:52. > :04:55.am critical of some of the things he has done. But he has been better
:04:55. > :05:00.on some things than previous presidents. He has been better on
:05:00. > :05:08.HIV/Aids. He has been a more direct about the need to address serious
:05:08. > :05:15.crime. What about the mistakes? has been softer on the howl of
:05:15. > :05:21.affirmative action. I don't want to judge your mouth. What about his
:05:21. > :05:26.mistakes? There is a great deal of focus on him right now, not least
:05:26. > :05:36.within the ANC. I wonder if you would see his most important
:05:36. > :05:36.
:05:36. > :05:44.mistakes? He tries to please everybody. He is allowing the ANC
:05:44. > :05:51.it under his leadership to question the very cornerstones of the accord
:05:51. > :05:55.which we reached after five years of negotiations. Questioning the
:05:55. > :06:00.cornerstones of our new democracy, the cornerstones of economic
:06:00. > :06:06.stability, by saying, maybe the constitution should be amended with
:06:06. > :06:14.regard to the protection of private property ownership, allowing the
:06:14. > :06:20.ANC to question the independence of the courts, bringing it into the
:06:20. > :06:25.arena. Why is that a mistake. If one looks at the current state of
:06:25. > :06:30.South Africa from the point of view of so many ordinary black South
:06:30. > :06:35.Africans, the constitution which she talk so fondly of simply has
:06:35. > :06:41.not delivered to a nation state that is capable of giving them a
:06:41. > :06:46.fair shake. That is in their own country. I fundamentally disagree
:06:46. > :06:51.with those who say the constitution is a stumbling block towards
:06:51. > :06:57.economic transformation, or that it is a stumbling block towards a
:06:57. > :07:00.better life. The minister said it the other day. He said our current
:07:00. > :07:06.so political settlement is inadequate for the transformation
:07:06. > :07:11.we need. He is absolutely wrong. The constitution is a
:07:11. > :07:16.transformational document. It allows, in order to rectify the
:07:16. > :07:20.injustices of the past, what is called Fair discrimination. The
:07:20. > :07:30.constitution demands economic transformation. The constitution
:07:30. > :07:30.
:07:30. > :07:36.allows concepts like black economic empowerment. I am looking for the
:07:36. > :07:42.right word. Let me intervene with a question. Would you dispute for one
:07:42. > :07:50.second that the fundamental levers of economic power I still in a
:07:50. > :07:54.largely white hens? It is changing. Would you dispute the fact? No.
:07:54. > :08:00.are so proud of this Budget has not delivered the radical
:08:00. > :08:04.transformation that so many South Africans need. The call was not to
:08:04. > :08:08.deliver, it was to create a framework. A constitution is a
:08:08. > :08:14.framework. It is the policies which have been applied that has led to
:08:14. > :08:20.the failure in a radical transformation. Policies like
:08:20. > :08:28.unbalanced affirmative action. The loss of highly trained and highly
:08:28. > :08:33.skilled people, almost one million white people have immigrated. We
:08:33. > :08:37.have had fairly well-balanced economic policies. But policies
:08:37. > :08:42.which have led to end implosion in the quality of service, especially
:08:42. > :08:46.at municipal level, with the result that people are marching against
:08:46. > :08:53.the ANC government, because of failure of delivery of goods
:08:53. > :08:57.services. The argument from senior figures in the ANC, including the
:08:57. > :09:02.President, say in the constitution has to be end of all think living
:09:02. > :09:07.document, so we won't get hung up on keeping it as the tears. But
:09:07. > :09:15.also others, they are saying that the constitution has constrained
:09:15. > :09:20.the ability of government to change society. For example, the balance
:09:20. > :09:25.of land ownership. To change the way in which black people are able
:09:25. > :09:30.to take important positions in corporate life in South Africa. If
:09:30. > :09:36.only the government had more levers to pull, it would be better for
:09:36. > :09:41.South Africa. Let me use your examples. In corporate life, there
:09:41. > :09:48.has been tremendous growth in the participation of black people.
:09:48. > :09:54.Directors. But look at the reality. A recent study showed that of the
:09:54. > :10:00.companies listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, only
:10:00. > :10:07.10% of the directors of those companies a black or coloured.
:10:07. > :10:11.20 years ago, none were. There has been growth. There is a development
:10:11. > :10:16.that black shareholding of the Stock Exchange has increased
:10:16. > :10:21.exponentially. It is happening, but you can't do it in five or ten
:10:21. > :10:27.years. Your other example about private property ownership, the
:10:27. > :10:32.failure to achieve a bigger percentage of land in black hens
:10:32. > :10:37.lies squarely in the policies and the execution of policy which has
:10:37. > :10:43.been followed by the ANC government. The fact is, they did not even
:10:43. > :10:46.properly spent the money which was allocated for them. It is not the
:10:46. > :10:52.willing buyer, a willing seller principle which stands in the way
:10:52. > :10:57.of achieving the goal of putting a bigger percentage of land in black
:10:57. > :11:02.hands. It is failure of policy and failure of implementation of
:11:02. > :11:08.policies which might work if they were implemented properly. But the
:11:08. > :11:13.fact is, whatever happens, the report finds that 50% of South
:11:13. > :11:18.Africans are living in poverty, as defined by your own government. The
:11:18. > :11:22.most recent studies of inequality showed that it is rising. These are
:11:22. > :11:28.realities that South Africans, black South Africans, who leave
:11:28. > :11:36.without running water, electricity or housing, they say, the system as
:11:36. > :11:41.it was constituted by you and Nelson Mandela does not work for us.
:11:41. > :11:49.The single biggest challenge which we face is to win the war against
:11:49. > :11:59.poverty. All South Africans should unite in... And take hens, and say,
:11:59. > :12:00.
:12:00. > :12:05.how can we bring that 50% down? We have failed to do so, not because
:12:05. > :12:11.of the constitution. We have failed to do so because of bad governance
:12:11. > :12:21.to a certain extent. Education is in its worst state then it has been
:12:21. > :12:26.in 1994. Someone else said that, not me. Not so long ago, I spoke to
:12:26. > :12:32.someone who is now in deep trouble with the ANC, but for a long time
:12:32. > :12:35.was the leader of the Youth League. His anger was so explicit, his
:12:35. > :12:43.determination that young black people will not wait any longer to
:12:43. > :12:48.see their lives improved, and his voice is powerful. Yes, it is a
:12:48. > :12:54.challenge which we face, which can only be accepted successfully. We
:12:54. > :13:02.can only begin to resolve this problem if each and every talent in
:13:02. > :13:07.South Africa is used to its best. We can only succeed in bringing
:13:07. > :13:15.down that 50%, in giving a better life to young people, in creating
:13:15. > :13:20.cornerstones of the constitution. If we remain a truly democratic
:13:20. > :13:28.country. If we have independent courts. If we uphold all the rights
:13:28. > :13:34.of all South Africans. We should not try to reinvent the wheel. We
:13:34. > :13:37.should, in South Africa, developed policies which are affordable,
:13:38. > :13:43.which can work, and which are focused on improving the quality of
:13:43. > :13:48.life of those who are leaving beneath the breadline. I just
:13:48. > :13:53.wonder, when you say focus should be on them, why UN jour Foundation
:13:53. > :13:58.spends so much time talking about the need to defend the rights of
:13:58. > :14:04.minorities, including the Afrikaner speaking the Afrikaans language.
:14:04. > :14:10.You seem to be hung up on an issue which there is say a majority of
:14:10. > :14:20.South Africans would regard as secondary importance.
:14:20. > :14:30.constitution guarantees rights for all. It prohibits you shall not be
:14:30. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:38.This has been thwarted by an unbalanced way of implementing
:14:38. > :14:42.affirmative action. We are not just defending white right when we talk
:14:42. > :14:48.about the rights of minorities. We are now involved in a court case
:14:48. > :14:54.which will end up in the constitutional court. The ANC said
:14:54. > :15:00.that people of mixed origin, so- called coloured South Africans, in
:15:00. > :15:10.the Prison Service, will no longer get any promotion because there are
:15:10. > :15:12.
:15:12. > :15:22.too many of them holding positions of Frank. -- military service. This
:15:22. > :15:25.
:15:25. > :15:29.is unfair. This is wrong. This is damaging. But here, I suppose, when
:15:29. > :15:35.we talk about race, and whether South Africa has truly moved beyond
:15:35. > :15:40.racial politics, into colour-blind politics, here's another phrase
:15:40. > :15:43.from the most recent OECD report, which says that by international
:15:43. > :15:50.standards, the link between race and poverty in South Africa is
:15:50. > :15:57.still remarkably strong. But it has improved. One of the fastest-
:15:57. > :16:02.growing groups in South Africa... And I am absolutely sure of my
:16:02. > :16:06.facts in this regard. The percentage of, if you analyse the
:16:06. > :16:14.so-called middle class, if you analyse the percentage of blacks
:16:14. > :16:20.grown exponentially and quite dramatically. All right, let's get
:16:20. > :16:24.a bit personal then, to examine how make, let me ask you some personal
:16:24. > :16:30.questions. Waded live, just outside of Cape Town, is than, is tha
:16:30. > :16:36.neighbourhood now? These so called for more white neighbourhoods have
:16:36. > :16:41.more mixed. So when you walk down your street, do you see a genuine
:16:41. > :16:47.mix of faces and colours? In my particular street, no, but five
:16:47. > :16:52.blocks away from me, yes. Right, so there is a demarcation still. Five
:16:52. > :16:56.blocks away. But five blocks away used to be totally white. What
:16:56. > :17:01.about in your household? Do you have household staff? What colour
:17:01. > :17:05.are they? Three of them are coloured and two are black, and
:17:05. > :17:11.three of them live on the premises in up raided a house in which we
:17:11. > :17:16.provided for them. What I'm getting out here at... And we are one big
:17:16. > :17:19.family together. There is the best of relationships between us.
:17:19. > :17:24.suppose what I'm getting out, too many people watching this around
:17:24. > :17:31.the world, it will not sound that much different to the by Africa was
:17:32. > :17:35.before 1993 and 1994. Well, let me give you an example. It has changed
:17:35. > :17:41.in the way that this demarcation of living almost in separate
:17:41. > :17:46.compartments has changed dramatically. The way in which, in
:17:46. > :17:51.schools now, all schools are more to racial now. To a lesser or
:17:52. > :17:56.greater extent. Often to a lesser extent. Big one looks at the
:17:56. > :18:00.exclusive universities and the exclusive secondary schools. -- if
:18:00. > :18:03.one. They go out of that way to get black and coloured students. They
:18:03. > :18:12.offer scholarships, they make it financially possible for people of
:18:12. > :18:15.colour to go to the best schools to which they did not go to before. On
:18:15. > :18:23.this side of those who are privileged, there is a real
:18:23. > :18:28.commitment to reach out and to be helpful and to open doors and to
:18:29. > :18:32.move towards a more egalitarian society. I just wonder had you
:18:32. > :18:35.believe the party politics of South Africa can truly become post
:18:35. > :18:40.racial? Because you have already talked about the problem of having
:18:40. > :18:45.an agency which is so dominant, two-thirds of the seats and the
:18:45. > :18:49.votes in your elections go to the ANC. The Democratic Alliance, the
:18:49. > :18:54.main opposition party, it is trying to make inroads. In the last
:18:54. > :18:57.election it a 24% of the vote. But the problem is that if the
:18:57. > :19:01.breakdown that boat, and the 5% of it comes from the black population.
:19:01. > :19:07.The majority of it clearly comes from the White and the coloured
:19:07. > :19:10.population. How does the Democratic Alliance moved beyond that place?
:19:10. > :19:17.do not for one moment dispute the fact that our politics is still
:19:17. > :19:20.racially and ethnically based. Once the ANC split - and they will split.
:19:20. > :19:25.I don't know whether it will be with a big bang or a series of
:19:25. > :19:32.splits. But once that happens, it will enable us to move towards more
:19:32. > :19:37.policy votes, and principally based politics, value-based politics.
:19:37. > :19:40.I suppose one point I am getting at is whether on the most literal
:19:40. > :19:45.level, the main opposition party some time soon has to have a black
:19:45. > :19:49.leader. Helen is a liar has a long record of working for Equality in
:19:49. > :19:59.South Africa, but nonetheless she is a white woman in a majority
:19:59. > :20:00.
:20:00. > :20:09.black land. Can that be credible for the main opposition party? --
:20:09. > :20:13.Helen Ziller. I think the question is whether a bug that split occurs
:20:13. > :20:17.there will be another agency, still dominant, maybe with a black leader,
:20:17. > :20:25.and there will be another more radical and fairly left-wing ANC.
:20:25. > :20:29.It depends who will get the trademark ANC. That we will have to
:20:30. > :20:34.see. And then I see room for alliances, between a party like the
:20:34. > :20:39.Democratic Alliance, as it is at the moment, and a moderate ANC
:20:40. > :20:44.party, none of them having 50% of the boat, but together representing
:20:44. > :20:50.the overwhelming majority of all South Africans. Most South Africans
:20:50. > :20:54.are moderate. You are talking about a sea change in South African
:20:54. > :20:57.politics, and huge change from the ANC of Nelson Mandela. And before
:20:57. > :21:04.we finish up what to focus a bit of Nelson Mandela we do. Are you still
:21:04. > :21:11.in touch with him? Yes. I on his wish not to be bothered too much
:21:11. > :21:14.now. He wants solitude in his old age. But yes, we speak of old days,
:21:14. > :21:20.we communicate, my foundation and his foundation communicate with
:21:20. > :21:26.each other and work with each other. He has become a good and valued
:21:26. > :21:29.friend of mine. I highly respected. I am interested used the word
:21:29. > :21:34.friend, because you have been very interesting in what you have said
:21:34. > :21:38.about Mandela. You said recently you do not subscribe to the general
:21:38. > :21:42.hagiography concerning him. He was by no means the St like figure it
:21:43. > :21:49.depicted today. As an opponent, he could be brutal and quite unfair.
:21:49. > :21:55.Yes. In retrospect, perhaps I should have said ruthless. In what
:21:55. > :21:59.way? Ruthless towards you? politicians need to be ruthless at
:21:59. > :22:05.a certain stage. You cannot be an effective leader of a party or a
:22:05. > :22:08.country if you do not at times take decisions which cut to the bone,
:22:08. > :22:14.which are certain people will experience to be brittle or
:22:14. > :22:24.ruthless. I think Margaret Thatcher, for whom I have the highest respect,
:22:24. > :22:27.
:22:27. > :22:30.was quite brittle on a number of occasions. I was brittle. -- brutal.
:22:31. > :22:35.The day before Nelson Mandela and I received the Nobel Peace Prize
:22:35. > :22:40.together former he made a vicious attack upon me personally on
:22:40. > :22:46.television. Just one example. I do not bear a grudge about it. I could
:22:46. > :22:50.give you other examples. Every South African, I think, right now,
:22:50. > :22:54.is hoping and praying that Nelson Mandela's help will last as long as
:22:54. > :22:59.it possibly can, but one day he will pass, and that whole era will
:22:59. > :23:03.pass, and I just wonder whether you are worried about the impact of
:23:03. > :23:08.Mandela's passing on South Africa? Because in a sense, his presence in
:23:08. > :23:12.the country has kept a lid on many tensions within. I will give you a
:23:12. > :23:16.reply to that, but once again I just want to complete what I wanted
:23:16. > :23:22.to say about what I recently said. I said that as a footnote in
:23:22. > :23:28.praising him. In mentioning him some more tenuously with five
:23:29. > :23:34.others of the greatest leaders I have met during my political career.
:23:34. > :23:44.He is a very special person. And it was not said in a derogatory way it
:23:44. > :23:52.
:23:52. > :23:55.ought to attack his character. -- or to attack. Understood. The ANC
:23:55. > :24:00.has already, unfortunately, tarnished his heritage by doing
:24:00. > :24:08.certain things wrong. Losing the moral compass which she clearly
:24:08. > :24:13.supplied and established for the ANC during his leadership. I think,
:24:13. > :24:16.and let's hope it does not happen soon, but when Mandela goes it will
:24:16. > :24:26.be a moment in which all South Africans will put away their
:24:26. > :24:28.