:00:04. > :00:10.two other US bases in the Pacific. That is it from me. Now it is time
:00:10. > :00:20.If the royal rulers of Bahrain believe that the recent Grand Prix
:00:20. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:27.The Formula One circus has moved on, but Bahrain's bitter internal
:00:27. > :00:31.divisions remain. In the absence of dialogue between the government and
:00:31. > :00:38.pro-democracy protesters, further confrontation seems inevitable. My
:00:38. > :00:42.guest is Bahrain's justice minister, Sheikh Khalid Bin Ali Al Khalifa.
:00:42. > :00:52.The monarchy says it has heeded the message of the Arab spring, but has
:00:52. > :01:03.
:01:03. > :01:11.it? Sheikh Khalid Bin Ali Al Khalifa, in Bahrain, welcome to
:01:11. > :01:14.HARDtalk. Welcome. Let me ask you first about the fall-out from the
:01:14. > :01:24.Grand Prix. We saw all those posters put up by your officials
:01:24. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :01:34.proclaiming that Bahrain was unified. We all know that's not
:01:34. > :01:37.true, don't we? You must know it as well? I think the Grand Prix is an
:01:37. > :01:41.opportunity for Bahrain to boost our economy, it's an international
:01:41. > :01:44.sport, and we were so happy to receive the Grand Prix here in
:01:44. > :01:47.Bahrain. You may have been happy to receive it, this is what was
:01:47. > :01:56.concluded afterwards. "For Bahrain's regime the race was a
:01:56. > :02:04.massive embarrassing failure. For the opposition it was a godsend ".
:02:04. > :02:11.It is a good boost for the economy. It went very well. It is a sport
:02:11. > :02:15.and it should not be an opportunity for everyone to take divisions. I
:02:15. > :02:20.don't think these have anything to do with F1. F1 is for everybody in
:02:20. > :02:24.Bahrain and it is an international sport. I am not talking about F1
:02:24. > :02:27.and he won and who lost and the chequered flag, I am talking what
:02:27. > :02:30.happened around it. We saw Shia villages outside Manama that were
:02:30. > :02:33.in lockdown during the weekend of the race. We saw international
:02:33. > :02:36.journalists who were stopped from filming and some were deported. And
:02:36. > :02:46.we saw violence, including violence that involved a team members from
:02:46. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :02:57.one of the teams. That was the context, was it not? The context of
:02:57. > :03:05.Formula One is that it is an international event that has been
:03:05. > :03:09.held in Bahrain. Sometimes with such an event it can be used by
:03:09. > :03:13.some people to have some sporadic acts of violence in some areas of
:03:13. > :03:16.the country. But at the end of the day cancelling Formula One for
:03:17. > :03:24.example would not be of any benefit to the country or for anyone. The
:03:24. > :03:27.main issue that we are trying to do so it is that the country is open.
:03:27. > :03:35.With Formula One over 200 media companies were here, including the
:03:35. > :03:39.BBC. And it asserts that this is a sport and it is a spectacle and
:03:39. > :03:43.Bahrain is able to host a sport that has a very good effect on the
:03:43. > :03:46.economy. The editor of a respected newspaper in your nation, he says
:03:46. > :03:51.that he is amazed by the state of denial that he finds Bahrain's
:03:51. > :03:56.officials to be in right now. I guess your words are part of that.
:03:56. > :03:59.I don't think that we are in any kind of a state of denial. If
:04:00. > :04:03.you're referring to the things that have happened in February and March,
:04:03. > :04:13.the procedures that have been taking place since then until now,'
:04:13. > :04:14.
:04:14. > :04:16.is immense. His Majesty, the Crown Prince, called for constitutional
:04:16. > :04:19.amendments. The Independent investigation committee that came
:04:19. > :04:29.to Bahrain and conducted an investigation into events to unveil
:04:29. > :04:39.
:04:39. > :04:43.the truth... I don't think that we are in denial. We are asserting
:04:43. > :04:49.that always the doors are open for anyone to join a construct of
:04:49. > :04:54.dialogue with everyone and move forward with this country. This is
:04:54. > :04:58.what we are doing. The independent commission of inquiry, which your
:04:58. > :05:04.government is so proud of, it came up with a whole host of
:05:04. > :05:08.recommendations for reform. Your government says it has heeded those
:05:08. > :05:11.calls for reform. But if we look at the way for example the security
:05:11. > :05:15.forces are currently operating in your country, we don't see real
:05:15. > :05:19.reform. We see the rhetoric but we don't see real reform, which I
:05:19. > :05:22.guess is why for example in the last few days we saw a protester
:05:22. > :05:31.found dead with gunshot wounds on a rooftop in a village close to
:05:31. > :05:34.Manama. That is the reality? reality is that since we received
:05:34. > :05:43.the report of the independent commission there were major steps
:05:43. > :05:46.taken during that time. One there has been a national convention that
:05:46. > :05:49.has been established, it concluded its work very recently and they
:05:49. > :05:59.made another report from his Majesty implementing 15 measures to
:05:59. > :06:04.
:06:04. > :06:13.put everything on track. There are lots of reforms in the field of
:06:13. > :06:15.accountability and the field of dealing with the protesters. There
:06:15. > :06:25.is a special investigation now established in the Public
:06:25. > :06:32.
:06:32. > :06:37.Prosecutions. The ombudsman that have been created as well is
:06:37. > :06:47.another sign of progress. We need to apply it right and that is what
:06:47. > :06:50.we care about. It is not a matter of speed. It takes time and we are
:06:50. > :06:54.committed to it and we are following this up very closely.
:06:54. > :06:56.want to follow it up very closely as well. We will talk about
:06:56. > :06:59.accountability and specific procedural reform inside the police
:06:59. > :07:03.in a moment. But let's stick to what happens on the ground. Your
:07:03. > :07:06.contention is that these days the security forces are operating in a
:07:06. > :07:10.different way to the way they operated in the so called Pearl
:07:10. > :07:14.Iprising in the spring of 2011. If we look on the ground at what
:07:14. > :07:22.happens day by day, we still see excessive are necessary use of
:07:22. > :07:26.force by Bahrain's security forces. Allow me to disagree with you on
:07:26. > :07:32.this. What I see and what everybody sees is there is an escalation in
:07:32. > :07:42.violence in some areas in the country. You are referring to
:07:42. > :07:50.
:07:50. > :07:53.specific incidents that are now being investigated. Whether we are
:07:54. > :07:57.dealing with a situation of a pre- protests or some people that have a
:07:57. > :08:00.problem with each other. Every case that is related to excessive force
:08:00. > :08:03.or degrading treatment is being seen now by a special investigation
:08:03. > :08:07.units. In any country that is having some challenges they have to
:08:07. > :08:10.take the necessary measures to face these challenges and to spare the
:08:10. > :08:20.population and spare the security and make sure there's a better
:08:20. > :08:24.
:08:24. > :08:28.future for everybody. This should be according to the international
:08:28. > :08:31.laws of human right. Are you trying to tell me you have a satisfactory
:08:31. > :08:34.explanation for the fact that for example in recent months we have
:08:34. > :08:37.seen a 14-year-old child and than 80-year-old civilian both killed as
:08:37. > :08:40.a result of tear-gas used by the security forces, who clearly now
:08:40. > :08:45.target houses as well as demonstrations with their tear-gas
:08:45. > :08:51.canisters. There's no direct relation between having a sporadic
:08:51. > :08:54.act of violence. You need to use the least necessary force to
:08:54. > :09:04.disperse people who are using Molotov cocktails or firebombs
:09:04. > :09:09.
:09:09. > :09:14.against security forces. Now they are even using bombs. They are
:09:14. > :09:17.using the minimum necessary equipment. A 14-year-old and than
:09:17. > :09:27.80-year-old had been killed by the use of tear-gas targeted inside
:09:27. > :09:27.
:09:27. > :09:31.homes. Can I just add to this? Any kind of weapon or tool that you
:09:31. > :09:41.have to use must be proportionate. When somebody claims they have lost
:09:41. > :09:46.
:09:46. > :09:49.their lives because of these tools they are subject to investigation.
:09:49. > :09:59.To come to a conclusion saying that they are dying like this without
:09:59. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:04.proper investigation is not fair. You need the solid facts to deal
:10:04. > :10:08.with it. I'm sure you read the catalogue of incidents released by
:10:08. > :10:18.the Bahraini authorities, Amnesty International as well. Amnesty's
:10:18. > :10:28.
:10:28. > :10:32.report looks at the series of has taken. The Bahraini authorities
:10:32. > :10:37.cannot claim that these reforms are being put in place when hundreds of
:10:37. > :10:44.people are in jail solely for asking for a change of government.
:10:44. > :10:47.untrue. If you look at the incidences that had happened to
:10:48. > :10:51.Bahrain, things that are related to freedom of speech, the Attorney
:10:51. > :10:59.General requested to drop charges related to article 168, related to
:10:59. > :11:09.freedom of speech. His Majesty said anything said against the regime
:11:09. > :11:18.
:11:18. > :11:28.would be not taken to court. I know exactly what is being done on the
:11:28. > :11:34.ground. There are serious investigations on the incidences.
:11:34. > :11:38.We are going forward. You are using interesting sleight-of-hand there.
:11:38. > :11:47.You know there are many people in prison because of trying to topple
:11:47. > :11:57.the government. These reports have been dismissed as being entirely
:11:57. > :11:59.
:11:59. > :12:06.inadequate. You are referring to the National Safety course
:12:06. > :12:12.established. These courts do not exist anymore. There are cases that
:12:12. > :12:22.have been subject to review. They have already been dismissed. There
:12:22. > :12:23.
:12:23. > :12:28.is no need to link the two things. Forgive me, Minister. There is a
:12:28. > :12:31.real reason real reasonany of these cases are at the forefront
:12:31. > :12:36.of the inte of the inte community's mind and the Bahraini people's mind
:12:36. > :12:39.right now. Let me point you to the case of R Khawaja, he is on hunger
:12:39. > :12:43.strike right now, his daughter is in prison now because she had the
:12:43. > :12:46.temerity to protest about the treatment of her father. Are you
:12:46. > :12:54.telling me right now you're proud of your government's treatment of
:12:54. > :12:58.Khawaja? Let me put it first in general terms. What we are having
:12:58. > :13:08.now in the courts are cases that are not related technically to any
:13:08. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:19.kind of cases that are against the You made that point already. It is
:13:19. > :13:22.a circular argument because people like him were imprisoned by
:13:22. > :13:24.military courts on protest and then charged with efforts to topple the
:13:24. > :13:34.government because they were exercising their right to free
:13:34. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:42.speech. This is completely not true. His case is being seen by the
:13:42. > :13:45.highest court in the country, the Civil Court, and the accusations
:13:45. > :13:48.directed at him are related not to the issue of freedom of speech but
:13:48. > :13:58.the use of illegal means and violence to overthrow the
:13:58. > :14:06.
:14:06. > :14:11.government. It is not for me to comment on any specific issue.
:14:11. > :14:21.is for you surely to answer this one question: As I understand it,
:14:21. > :14:21.
:14:21. > :14:24.the key evidence against Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja was his own confession.
:14:24. > :14:26.But the independent commission of inquiry said that at the time he
:14:26. > :14:36.was arrested and charged, forces of your government used excessive
:14:36. > :14:46.
:14:46. > :14:48.force and torture. How can any confession made at that time be a
:14:49. > :14:55.credible piece of evidence with which to imprison this man for
:14:55. > :14:58.life? If you have any confession and there is any question about the
:14:58. > :15:08.legality of this confession, this would be disregarded by any court
:15:08. > :15:14.
:15:14. > :15:21.in the country. We are not trying to come here and establish a trial.
:15:21. > :15:24.This evidence is being seen by the highest court in the country. The
:15:24. > :15:27.main issue if we are referring to Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja, we have a big
:15:28. > :15:37.concern about his health and we hope he will enjoy good health as
:15:38. > :15:42.
:15:42. > :15:46.well as any other detainees. are the Justice Minister, I want
:15:46. > :15:48.this on the record, you do accept that at the time of his arrest,
:15:48. > :15:58.detention and trial, that according to your own independent commission,
:15:58. > :16:04.
:16:04. > :16:08.the use of torture was systematic? Do you accept that? In relation to
:16:08. > :16:13.Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja? In relation to the entire system. It was
:16:13. > :16:23.endemic. That is what the inquiry found. If we're dealing with the
:16:23. > :16:26.
:16:26. > :16:31.issue of torture, this is something that is intolerable by all means.
:16:31. > :16:34.What we're talking about is the Khawaja. I'm not asking you if it
:16:34. > :16:37.is tolerable. I'm asking you if you accept that during the time of his
:16:37. > :16:45.trial and conviction that this sort of torture was endemic in your
:16:45. > :16:51.system? You say you accept the report of your own inquiry. You
:16:51. > :16:58.must accept what they say. Whatever was listed in the report, we have
:16:58. > :17:05.accepted it. What I'm saying now is how we are dealing with all the
:17:05. > :17:08.things that are related to this. I've talked about accountability,
:17:08. > :17:13.confessions will not be taken once there is any suspicion about the
:17:13. > :17:15.legality of a confession. And our aim is insisting that any case of
:17:16. > :17:25.Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja, we are concerned about his health and the
:17:26. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:47.Minister for the Interior said yesterday that his health is fine.
:17:47. > :17:55.He asserted this. They may have asserted it but we do not know if
:17:55. > :18:00.his health is fine. His wife tweeted two days ago that since
:18:00. > :18:03.Monday, she has had no news about her husband. He had at that point
:18:03. > :18:13.been moved from his military hospital bed where he is refusing
:18:13. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:17.food and water. For you to say he is fine stretches credibility.
:18:17. > :18:23.I am a certain of is that there was an official announcement by the
:18:23. > :18:29.Minister of the Interior about the health of Abdulhadi Al-Khawaja. The
:18:29. > :18:32.last time he was checked, his haemoglobin was normal. At the end
:18:32. > :18:42.of the day, he took the decision to go into it a voluntary hunger-
:18:42. > :18:46.
:18:46. > :18:51.strike. As a human rights defender, you have to abide by the
:18:51. > :18:58.international rules of human rights. But to attack a police man, that is
:18:58. > :19:04.something that is outside of the realm of that. Your government is
:19:04. > :19:06.making another terrible mistake. If he does die as a result of his
:19:06. > :19:16.hunger strike, there will be the most terrible intensification of
:19:16. > :19:19.
:19:19. > :19:26.violence across your nation. Do you accept that? Firstly, we do not
:19:26. > :19:31.want anyone to die in or out of prison. Secondly, we have a court
:19:31. > :19:34.process. If you look at the international practice, I refer you
:19:34. > :19:40.to the ICTY it were the European Court of Human Rights in dealing
:19:40. > :19:44.with cases related to hunger strike. The main issue is that he took a
:19:44. > :19:50.decision not to eat and we hope that he will take another decision
:19:50. > :20:00.to start eating again. We're providing optimum healthcare
:20:00. > :20:01.
:20:01. > :20:04.possible. We have a court process that is very important. You talked
:20:04. > :20:12.earlier about accountability being such an important sign of the way
:20:12. > :20:15.in which a government is engaging with the reform process. Is it not
:20:15. > :20:18.the truth that not a single senior officer or political leader of the
:20:18. > :20:28.security forces and agencies has been held to account for the many
:20:28. > :20:31.
:20:31. > :20:34.deaths that have occurred in your country since March of 2011. Once
:20:34. > :20:44.we received the inquiry report, we established a commission and there
:20:44. > :20:46.
:20:46. > :20:56.have been international experts who have helped us. It was an issue of
:20:56. > :21:06.
:21:06. > :21:09.accountability and how to deal with that in light of the investigations.
:21:09. > :21:13.On 28th February 2012, a change in the law to refer all cases from
:21:14. > :21:21.police courts to normal courts was very recent. We have now more than
:21:21. > :21:23.121 cases being investigated with over 52 accused. I understand that.
:21:23. > :21:32.The most senior person currently under investigation is one police
:21:32. > :21:34.lieutenant. It goes to the top of the security pyramid. Why was it
:21:34. > :21:44.that the National Security Agency chief responsible for so many
:21:44. > :21:46.
:21:46. > :21:48.abuses, according to the inquiry, why was he promoted recently? He
:21:48. > :21:58.was made a national security adviser to the king and given
:21:58. > :22:03.
:22:03. > :22:07.ministerial rank. We have zero tolerance for any acts of torture.
:22:07. > :22:17.But my question is why is it that the man who is responsible for the
:22:17. > :22:18.
:22:18. > :22:21.agency that has done this been given such a massive promotion?
:22:21. > :22:26.have to establish the facts first that there are cases of torture and
:22:26. > :22:29.there is someone directly responsible for that. Then,
:22:29. > :22:36.according to the recommendations, you have to go higher and establish
:22:36. > :22:41.responsibility. You have to establish whether a superior knows
:22:41. > :22:45.about it, whether he ordered it. You must investigate it to see what
:22:45. > :22:54.kind of realities are there and then you can go higher up to
:22:54. > :22:57.establish responsibility. That is what is being done now. I can
:22:57. > :23:05.assure you that whoever has been involved in these apparent
:23:05. > :23:08.violations will not be tolerated. In the end, it will take a dialogue
:23:09. > :23:16.to defuse the crisis your country faces. Are you ready to talk to
:23:16. > :23:24.people like Nabeel Rajab and other leaders of the protest movement?
:23:24. > :23:30.are open to dialogue with anyone who would like a dialogue. His
:23:30. > :23:33.Majesty asserted that dialogue is open to everyone. The main issue is
:23:33. > :23:41.that we should not go for dialogue while other people are trying to
:23:41. > :23:44.tearaway from each other. We're trying to get everyone together. I
:23:44. > :23:48.was sad to hear one of the biggest opposition parties saying that if
:23:48. > :23:58.there is a dialogue to be conducted, it should be representative of the
:23:58. > :24:00.
:24:00. > :24:08.government. There are major developments that are being done
:24:08. > :24:11.and it should let everyone contribute. Very briefly minister,
:24:11. > :24:21.the US government is saying that if you now do not use maximum
:24:21. > :24:27.
:24:27. > :24:31.restraint, they will look very poorly upon your government. What
:24:31. > :24:39.is concerning us is the security of this country and the unity of our
:24:39. > :24:42.people. We will not spare any effort to save these things. We are