:00:11. > :00:15.the river. It is now time for HARDtalk.
:00:15. > :00:20.At last, sub-Saharan Africa has a positive economic story to tell.
:00:20. > :00:24.But is it being matched by improved governance? Our Africa's leaders
:00:24. > :00:29.making best use of the current surge in economic growth to tackle
:00:29. > :00:33.endemic poverty? By guest today is Guy Scott, recently appointed vice-
:00:33. > :00:38.president of Zambia. He is a trained scientist, and ex-farmer,
:00:38. > :00:43.and happens to be the most senior white official in post-colonial
:00:43. > :00:53.Africa. It is tempting to see him as a symbol of the Continent no
:00:53. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:11.longer trapped in its past. But is Vice-President Guy Scott, will come
:01:11. > :01:16.too HARDtalk -- HARDtalk. Thank you. I have just talked about your
:01:16. > :01:22.status as the most senior white official in post-colonial Africa. D
:01:22. > :01:26.see yourself as a symbol of change? Perhaps. An indication that things
:01:26. > :01:33.may be turning the corner. A lot has happened in Africa apart from
:01:33. > :01:40.the becoming vice-president. We were talking earlier about the fact
:01:40. > :01:45.that most Zambians and Africans have access to SMS, the internet,
:01:45. > :01:51.satellite television. There is a much more cosmopolitan feel about
:01:51. > :01:57.Africa and it is not just to do with me. I'm a symptom of that loss
:01:57. > :02:01.of colonial consciousness and a wish to join the world.
:02:01. > :02:04.appreciate the degree of change in Africa. Nonetheless, it is less
:02:04. > :02:10.than five decades since independence and we're talking
:02:10. > :02:19.about a country where they row over 13 million people and only a few
:02:19. > :02:22.thousand of them are white. A few hundred actually. I would imagine,
:02:23. > :02:30.in fact I know, that there are some Zambians that still have a problem
:02:30. > :02:36.with your seniority. They rather few in number. I would not be able
:02:36. > :02:41.to. At many even with the fingers of one hand. The chief from a
:02:41. > :02:47.northern province says that your presence in the Vice-President's of
:02:47. > :02:53.this signals the Independent struggle. That is politics. He
:02:53. > :02:57.threw his arms around me the other day. It is grandstanding? Just a
:02:57. > :03:01.bit of grandstanding in the run-up to the election. This seems to be
:03:01. > :03:06.some debate about whether you would be legally entitled to become
:03:06. > :03:14.president. After all the President is in his 70s. If anything were to
:03:14. > :03:19.happen to him, which are legally be able -- would you legally be able
:03:19. > :03:24.to take the presidency? Under the current constitution, which was
:03:24. > :03:31.tweaked by a previous president, to exclude our first president from
:03:31. > :03:40.standing again because he was a son of Malawi missionaries. He was a
:03:40. > :03:44.local African but not a Zambian. That tweak would mean I
:03:44. > :03:52.automatically became acting president if the current President
:03:52. > :03:59.were, God forbid, to leave this earth. I would not be entitled to
:03:59. > :04:09.compete in the subsequent election. It may all be academic because the
:04:09. > :04:11.
:04:11. > :04:18.new constitution is in draft. It should go to a referendum this year.
:04:18. > :04:23.I understand it is likely to say you have to be his NBN. When you
:04:23. > :04:29.asked about this remarkable status you have in Zambia, you said that
:04:29. > :04:32.people are not nostalgic for the exploitation that came with
:04:32. > :04:35.colonialism but there are perhaps for the standards that we saw in
:04:35. > :04:45.colonial times when you went to hospital. There was medicine at
:04:45. > :04:50.school. There were books. Is there something about the colonial
:04:50. > :04:55.experience that Africans look back on with a sense of nostalgia?
:04:55. > :05:00.a difficult question because it keeps sliding into that thing that
:05:00. > :05:04.people are the started for colonialism, which people are not.
:05:04. > :05:08.But I think people are nostalgic for efficiency and the lack of
:05:08. > :05:15.corruption which may be characterised in the minds of all
:05:15. > :05:20.the people... But to a sort of suggesting that white men are more
:05:20. > :05:26.competent? But that is why you have raised it because it is more
:05:26. > :05:33.dangerous. Some Zambians might listen to that thought and did not
:05:33. > :05:37.like it at all. Many of the Zambians what -- have voted for me.
:05:37. > :05:46.What then examine their own hearts and beliefs. All this pussyfooting
:05:46. > :05:52.about racial self-awareness, I think the time for it is over. One
:05:52. > :05:57.should not make excuses for people. One should also not be nasty. I
:05:57. > :06:01.think it -- racism is abhorrent. It is disgusting. But at the same time,
:06:01. > :06:08.we should be honest with ourselves and face the challenges that are
:06:08. > :06:18.there. And at a most Africans at that point now? At least 50% of
:06:18. > :06:18.
:06:18. > :06:23.young Africans at the point where they do not make excuses for
:06:23. > :06:28.themselves, saying, I am part of a disadvantaged heritage. Everybody
:06:28. > :06:37.now has the idea that you make your own way in life and set your own
:06:37. > :06:46.standards. But when we talk of disadvantage, there is plenty of it
:06:46. > :06:52.in Zambia. There is a decent growth rate, but also 60% of the
:06:52. > :06:57.population living on $2 a day or less. There is joblessness and a
:06:58. > :07:04.massive economic drag. How do you want the president intend to turn
:07:04. > :07:14.that around? -- and to the President. I think we have begun to
:07:14. > :07:16.
:07:16. > :07:26.turn it around to. There is a situation in Zambia called a lead
:07:26. > :07:31.
:07:32. > :07:37.capture where there is a privileged class of people which is prospering.
:07:37. > :07:47.You can have a traffic jam consisting entirely of the calls
:07:47. > :07:48.
:07:48. > :07:53.consisting -- worth $80,000 or more each. At the same time, you have
:07:53. > :08:00.people with $2 or less a day. That is in town. In rural areas it gets
:08:00. > :08:10.translate top line GDP growth into economic transformation to address
:08:10. > :08:11.
:08:11. > :08:15.endemic poverty. Absolutely. D had an answer? It depends how long you
:08:15. > :08:24.have it. Adding Zambians would like the very quick version. They accuse
:08:24. > :08:27.think Zambians. He said he would turn the country around in 90 days.
:08:27. > :08:34.Now they are looking around and saying, whereas the evidence that
:08:34. > :08:41.you can back the words with action? The council's Oram playing people
:08:41. > :08:47.out to clean the streets and some are Terry's -- cemeteries, the
:08:47. > :08:51.agricultural distribution of goods has been cleaned up and made to
:08:52. > :09:01.serve the poor rather than the influential people. The newspapers
:09:02. > :09:02.
:09:02. > :09:05.are worth reading. You have work and freedom of expression? Oh yes.
:09:05. > :09:15.If you do read the newspapers, you also see that there is real concern
:09:15. > :09:17.amongst investors about some of the things you have done. Reversing the
:09:17. > :09:22.privatisation for big telecommunications companies,
:09:22. > :09:27.putting a new level of frothy tax on the big mining companies, these
:09:27. > :09:32.are things which investors looking at Zambia are clearly worried about.
:09:32. > :09:37.I would take issue with that. There are some young journalists who
:09:37. > :09:47.perhaps have no sense of what really is a story and what is not
:09:47. > :09:49.
:09:49. > :09:52.who have taken up for example the telecommunications story.
:09:52. > :10:02.Privatisation which begins in the Cayman Islands attract a certain
:10:02. > :10:06.amount of scepticism. We looked into it and found that it was a
:10:06. > :10:16.bend deal. Every serious investor knows this. We promised to reverse
:10:16. > :10:22.it in our campaign and we did. to have led some outside analysts
:10:22. > :10:28.to wonder about long-term economic stability. Pitch ratings agency
:10:28. > :10:35.have downgraded their outlook on Zambia from stable to negative, and
:10:35. > :10:42.that is not good new perhaps not bid professionalism by
:10:42. > :10:50.Fitch. If they were to downgrade the US for example, they would
:10:50. > :10:55.throw dozens of very experienced analysts at it he would produce a
:10:55. > :11:03.balanced solution. If you're just going to throw one of two 25-year-
:11:03. > :11:06.olds to listen to a bit of gossip at cocktail parties... I'm sure
:11:06. > :11:10.that Fitch would tell you that they did not just do that. They have
:11:10. > :11:16.been monitoring your country for a long time and they worry about some
:11:16. > :11:21.of the economic signals. They also monitored some of the sub Prime
:11:22. > :11:26.mortgages and gave them AAA ratings a few years ago. It's not get too
:11:26. > :11:35.excited about casual observation. People are too inclined to
:11:35. > :11:42.pessimism over Africa. When they hear a remark, they say, they were!
:11:42. > :11:49.We told you was going to fail! This has got to stop. I wonder whether
:11:49. > :11:53.you feel if their -- that there are certain people who are not ready to
:11:53. > :11:57.accept what you said about redistributing wealth around the
:11:57. > :12:03.country. It seemed to want to take some of the world in the mining
:12:03. > :12:07.industry and make sure it reaches the streets. The mines themselves
:12:08. > :12:16.have not uttered a word about their role to ratings -- their royalty
:12:16. > :12:22.percentages. It doubled to 6% in our last Budget. But they worry
:12:22. > :12:27.about a windfall tax. We have made it clear that there is not one.
:12:27. > :12:36.They will not ever be one? I will not say ever. We could both be long
:12:36. > :12:44.dead and they made -- there may be a windfall tax in the offing. But
:12:44. > :12:48.we are run very good terms with the mining companies. The things that
:12:49. > :12:52.have held them back are human settlement issues. The mining
:12:52. > :12:56.industry's famous for displacing people and poisoning rivers, and we
:12:56. > :13:01.don't want that. But there's no been holding back an account of the
:13:01. > :13:10.tax form a lot. If we're talking about mining, we have to talk about
:13:10. > :13:16.China. It seems that you and the President both made a great play in
:13:16. > :13:22.criticising some of the Chinese companies in your country and
:13:22. > :13:26.threatened to remove them if they did not raise their standards.
:13:26. > :13:29.threatened to remove themselves. We said they would raise their
:13:29. > :13:35.standards and their game and they said they would pull out. They had
:13:35. > :13:44.a Chinese ambassador that went to the conference of the ruling party
:13:44. > :13:48.before we took it over and said, you must vote for this party. To
:13:48. > :13:53.his fellow diplomats. As soon as we won, he was called back and another
:13:53. > :13:57.Chinese ambassador was sent in and everything is fine. I wonder
:13:57. > :14:01.authorities because you are playing politics? You have said that your
:14:01. > :14:06.campaign was about China bashing. He said it was a shock tactic,
:14:06. > :14:10.which brings me back to the point about populism. He were playing
:14:10. > :14:19.games with that China bashing strategy? Wedd has politics begin
:14:19. > :14:23.to be populism and why does it become simply popular? Word has it
:14:23. > :14:33.become identifying problems that people feel every day? But you had
:14:33. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:38.no intention of taking on the We are not racist. The issue was,
:14:38. > :14:41.whether Chinese plane by the Bulls? And there was a widespread
:14:42. > :14:46.perception that they were not. We wanted to make sure they would play
:14:46. > :14:51.by the Bulls. You were quoted as saying that the Chinese have a
:14:51. > :14:56.reputation for being somewhat inhumane. Do you stand by that?
:14:56. > :15:06.They have a reputation for that, yes, in Zambia. They have a
:15:06. > :15:10.reputation for, we had an example, where the Chinese management in a
:15:10. > :15:14.coal mine started shooting at the workers, with bird shot from a
:15:14. > :15:18.shotgun, admittedly, but nonetheless. And it must be said,
:15:18. > :15:24.that staff were acquitted. witnesses did not materialise at
:15:24. > :15:27.the trial. Why that should be, we do not know. But the question is, I
:15:27. > :15:31.suppose, you say that everything is hunky-dory with the new Chinese
:15:31. > :15:36.ambassador, but does Zambia still see the merit with tying much of
:15:37. > :15:41.its economy and its growth to Chinese Investment? We have seen it
:15:41. > :15:46.elsewhere. Not long ago I spoke to the end gold and Foreign Minister
:15:46. > :15:51.about the same issue. Is it the right strategy for Zambia?
:15:51. > :15:56.Chinese are part of a solution. They only produce 10% of the Cup by
:15:56. > :16:01.in Zambia. There is also Indian Investment, American investment.
:16:01. > :16:10.The trade is worth billions for Zambia. They are not our biggest
:16:10. > :16:14.trade partner by any means. Our Zambian contractors can only borrow
:16:14. > :16:18.from the banks at 25% or 30%, was the Chinese can borrow from the
:16:18. > :16:22.Chinese banks much more. That is a real issue which should be talking
:16:22. > :16:26.about. But the politics surrounding China, they thought they could get
:16:26. > :16:36.away with more than they could, and now things are fine. Now things are
:16:36. > :16:40.fine? Things are very fine. the President said that he was
:16:40. > :16:48.allergic to corruption, but if one looks at the record, both he and
:16:48. > :16:52.use served four years in governments of Zambia in the past
:16:52. > :16:58.which most Zambians would now regard as being intimately corrupt.
:16:58. > :17:01.I think that is unfair. You cannot take everybody in the ship and say
:17:01. > :17:07.that they are responsible for hitting the iceberg, or whatever
:17:07. > :17:13.ships do. But you work for Frederick Chiluba, and we now know
:17:14. > :17:18.from a British court case, where a British court said that he stole
:17:18. > :17:23.millions of pounds from the Zambian people, and described his
:17:23. > :17:27.extravagant lifestyle and wardrobe, you knew the man, you knew he was
:17:27. > :17:32.corrupt. What can you do? You walk into cabinet, and you see a chap in
:17:32. > :17:36.a new suit, and you say he must be corrupt? But are you saying you had
:17:36. > :17:39.no idea he was creaming money from the Treasury? If I had such an idea
:17:39. > :17:44.what should I have done? Should I have just walked out and left the
:17:44. > :17:52.thing? No, but the point is, you and your President said you were
:17:52. > :17:57.allergic to corruption. There were resignations which left him high
:17:57. > :18:06.and dry at the end of the day. In 1996, several of his ministers
:18:06. > :18:10.resigned, as he was warming up to his third term. It is very
:18:10. > :18:13.difficult to resign. The vice- president did resign on the case of
:18:13. > :18:16.alleged corruption, but it was never proven. It is very difficult.
:18:16. > :18:25.When you lie in a government it does not mean that you're on the
:18:25. > :18:30.bridge of the boat. -- when you are in a government. There are kitchen
:18:30. > :18:38.cabinets, there are groups within groups. I certainly had my hands
:18:38. > :18:40.full with drought and one thing and another at another at I know it
:18:40. > :18:44.you're running agriculture at the time, but if we think about now,
:18:44. > :18:48.and you're clear commitment to brute out corruption, what you have
:18:48. > :18:51.done is fire quite a few individuals in your first few
:18:52. > :18:55.months in office. That includes senior policemen and senior figures
:18:55. > :18:59.at the Central Bank. But critics say that you need to focus on
:18:59. > :19:06.changing the system, not just getting rid of individuals. You
:19:06. > :19:10.must reform the system so that it cannot be corrupted so easily.
:19:10. > :19:16.those critics get themselves elected and did a job. It is not as
:19:16. > :19:20.easy as one might hope from looking at it from outside. You have to
:19:21. > :19:25.play with one eye on the political implications of various individuals
:19:25. > :19:29.being fired, and so on and so forth, but it is taking place. And it is
:19:29. > :19:34.taking place with a lot more vigour than it has taken place under any
:19:34. > :19:38.other leader in Zambia. A quick thought about something that the
:19:38. > :19:41.outside world cares a great deal about, which is the notion that if
:19:42. > :19:45.international aid money is still given to Zambia, it is given
:19:45. > :19:51.correctly. This ties into the discussion of corruption. But there
:19:51. > :19:54.are other ways of looking at it. As Zambian author said that aid in
:19:54. > :19:58.countries like Zambia has frankly been a profound negative in many
:19:58. > :20:03.different ways for the Zambian people and the Zambian economy. Do
:20:03. > :20:08.you agree? Given that your country still gets much international aid,
:20:08. > :20:12.should that aid end? That author does bring attention to some real
:20:12. > :20:17.issues, but she also over sympathise. To say that all aid
:20:17. > :20:23.given to M B has no use for almost, that is not a very useful comment.
:20:23. > :20:27.-- given to Zambia. She said it was only the private sector that could
:20:27. > :20:31.generate the growth that would help Zambia. She also said it was only
:20:31. > :20:37.the Chinese. I suppose they are the private sector by some definition,
:20:37. > :20:42.but not really. Given that your country has 50% of its revenue
:20:42. > :20:48.still coming from international aid, do you want that to continue? --
:20:48. > :20:52.15%. We want it to continue, but we wanted spent two more effect. The
:20:53. > :20:57.interest rates that I mentioned lb are paralysing Zambia. They are
:20:58. > :21:01.paralysing the private sector. We are going to war against those
:21:01. > :21:08.interest-rate and I expect to win that war. Let me ask you are
:21:08. > :21:13.somewhat different question. About the culture and values systems of
:21:13. > :21:16.Africa. Not so long ago on HARDtalk I interviewed the President of
:21:16. > :21:20.Uganda, and we talked a lot about cultural values and African
:21:20. > :21:24.attitudes to homosexuality. That is something that has come up in your
:21:24. > :21:28.country as well, because there is a confusion right now in Zambia about
:21:28. > :21:34.whether being gay is actually illegal. As vice-president, you
:21:34. > :21:39.believe that her Mr Bazi is a legal in your country? Yes. The legal
:21:39. > :21:43.situation is that it is illegal. Except your constitution, written
:21:43. > :21:46.in the 1990s, explicitly defence many human rights, which many
:21:46. > :21:50.people in Zambia say that they should be taken seriously. The only
:21:50. > :21:55.way to decide that would have somebody take it to the Supreme
:21:55. > :21:59.Court and argue. I am just the vice-president. You're just the
:21:59. > :22:02.vice-president, much means you are the number two. The second most
:22:02. > :22:06.important man in the country. He was a chance for you to speak to
:22:06. > :22:09.the Zambian people. Should the constitution makes it plain that
:22:09. > :22:15.homosexuality between consenting adults should no longer be
:22:15. > :22:22.criminalised in your country? don't know. I am asking for your
:22:22. > :22:28.do you lobbying for? What I belief is that sleeping dogs should be
:22:28. > :22:30.left to lie, so to speak. This issue can create extremism. There
:22:31. > :22:34.are fundamentalists on one side who would happily stoned to death
:22:34. > :22:39.anybody who was leaning towards homosexuality, let alone practising
:22:39. > :22:46.it. On the other hand there are liberal fundamentalists who would
:22:46. > :22:52.be very insistent and noisy. And you would get quite a ruckus if you
:22:52. > :22:55.went in there and tried to give ground to either side. Don't you
:22:55. > :22:59.yourself have core principles? You just describe the totally pragmatic
:22:59. > :23:02.view. But don't you have any core principles which would allow you to
:23:02. > :23:06.have a view about whether homosexuality should be or should
:23:06. > :23:10.not be a criminal offence in Zambia? You cannot concentrate on
:23:10. > :23:15.everything. You cannot make everything an issue. Most people in
:23:15. > :23:22.Zambia, for example, take capital punishment. That is a core issue.
:23:22. > :23:27.It is as much an ethical issue as homosexuality is. Capital
:23:27. > :23:31.punishment for murder. We in Zambia have a very noisy debate about it,
:23:31. > :23:34.because we have not executed anybody for 15 years. It is
:23:35. > :23:39.important that we come to a position. Do we join the rest of
:23:39. > :23:43.the world, which is rapidly coming of capital punishment, or not? Why
:23:43. > :23:46.do you want me to take a highly controversial and hysteria
:23:46. > :23:53.provoking topic, which at the moment is hurting very few people,
:23:53. > :23:57.if any, and stick it in the foreground? That is a highly
:23:57. > :24:00.contentious statement. It brings us back your original claim that there
:24:00. > :24:06.is a new cosmopolitanism in Africa. How far do you think that process
:24:06. > :24:13.is going to go? I think it is going to follow, I would guess, for the
:24:13. > :24:17.world history. Remember, when Britain handed independence over to
:24:17. > :24:24.Zambia, homosexuality in Britain was an offence. Capital punishment
:24:24. > :24:29.in Britain was a fact. All right? So you are not looking at us been