:00:13. > :00:17.President Obama's plane. Six of the world's 10 fastest
:00:17. > :00:22.growing economies are in sub- Saharan Africa. The World Bank
:00:22. > :00:27.predicts a decade of African growth which Europe can only dream about.
:00:27. > :00:34.But how realistic is the excitable talk of economic transformation in
:00:34. > :00:40.the world's poorest continent? My Guest is Arnold Ekpe, CEO at
:00:40. > :00:48.Ecobank, which boasts 8 million customers across 32 African nations.
:00:48. > :00:58.Economic opportunity beckons. A African's ready to seize it? -- are
:00:58. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:20.A Arnold Ekpe, welcome to HARDtalk. You have lived a life devoted to
:01:20. > :01:29.business and finance in Africa. Does this feel like a turning point
:01:29. > :01:36.to you? I think so. I think what we're seeing in Africa has been
:01:36. > :01:41.evidence of sustainable growth. It will be a better time for abaca.
:01:41. > :01:45.People have said that before at the last 20 or 30 years. Applicants
:01:45. > :01:52.have expressed great confidence that a corner has been toned and
:01:52. > :01:58.the Continent is on a new park. They have been wrong. I think there
:01:58. > :02:04.have been certain changes that we have to take of -- account of. For
:02:04. > :02:09.the first time, the GDP in Africa is growing. Global economics have
:02:09. > :02:19.changed. Africa is now benefiting from better terms of trade, much
:02:19. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:28.more need for African commodities, and major changes. Democracy has
:02:28. > :02:33.taken root in Africa, the middle classes rising. The signs are
:02:33. > :02:40.positive. The biggest in the long run are amazing. The prediction is
:02:40. > :02:44.that there will be almost 1 billion middle class applicants by 2060.
:02:44. > :02:50.But in the more immediate short- term, African economies are still
:02:50. > :02:58.heavily reliant on exports to Europe, Asia, to none African
:02:58. > :03:03.economies. It seems that in a moment of great economic stability,
:03:03. > :03:10.Africa remains vulnerable. That is correct. Africa is potentially bomb
:03:10. > :03:13.rubble. We have seen the ability of the African governments and to
:03:13. > :03:19.decision-makers to manage economy is much better than they did in the
:03:19. > :03:26.past. I think the impact of any slowdown in global economy -- The
:03:26. > :03:31.Club economy will be less in terms of the overall impact. The Nigerian
:03:31. > :03:40.Central Bank governor warned not long ago that serious spillover at
:03:40. > :03:50.risk from the eurozone crisis -- he warned of this risk. Do you see
:03:50. > :03:50.
:03:50. > :03:53.this risk? I think there is some risk. If European banks decide to
:03:53. > :03:58.reduce credit for international trade, that is bound to affect
:03:58. > :04:02.every Cup. If China and Europe slowed down, the demand for African
:04:03. > :04:08.commodities will come down. I want to talk about your bank, your
:04:08. > :04:12.strategy and your vision for the future. It seems to me that what
:04:12. > :04:17.underpins your business life is something that goes beyond
:04:17. > :04:27.economics and is almost emotional. I have read things that you have
:04:27. > :04:32.said in the past. For Ekka Bank -- Ecobank, have said at the pay is
:04:32. > :04:39.your strategy. You see opportunity. You believe the NAB Cup. That does
:04:39. > :04:47.not sound economic so much as emotional. That is not exactly true.
:04:47. > :04:50.We're being very pragmatic. Bankers and businessmen. We present
:04:50. > :04:56.shareholders with a good return. But I think Ecobank is a good
:04:56. > :05:03.example. We have tried to Kobe and banking and see what is positive
:05:03. > :05:11.and at the Kop. We took a view that the wars and under development
:05:11. > :05:15.would not continue forever. Advocate -- Africa would emerge.
:05:15. > :05:22.Most people who work for Ecobank will tell you that it is not just a
:05:22. > :05:26.band. It is a movement for change. You have used the word at the
:05:26. > :05:30.Palace of it is a sort of monolithic Continent. One of the
:05:30. > :05:38.things we have seen recently is that as some parts of the African
:05:38. > :05:48.continent have begun to thrive, we have seen a greater fragmentation
:05:48. > :05:53.of the Continent. Other countries like Mali or Chad or Guinea-Bissau
:05:53. > :06:01.uttering horribly badly. There are bound to be blips along the way of
:06:01. > :06:05.development. Africa is the Continent of 55 countries. -- a
:06:05. > :06:10.Continent. They will all grow at different rates. But overall Africa
:06:10. > :06:15.is growing. The future of app allies in further integration
:06:15. > :06:20.rather than fragmentation. I am wondering whether there are many
:06:20. > :06:26.business leaders and political leaders in Africa today who think
:06:26. > :06:30.about the interests of the Continent as a whole be on to their
:06:30. > :06:37.own national short-term parochial interests? I think there are very
:06:37. > :06:42.many. I have been doing banking in Africa for 32 years. What is not
:06:42. > :06:51.often realised is how much Africans are investing in Africa. The PIC of
:06:51. > :06:58.South Africa is investing 7 billion. It is the Public Investment
:06:58. > :07:04.Corporation. A Nigerian businessman is looking to invest 3 billion.
:07:04. > :07:13.cement King, one of the richest man on the continent? He is investing 3
:07:13. > :07:20.billion in Africa. There is a bully for NAB Cup. You proudly announce
:07:20. > :07:27.that you employ more Africans than any other bank on the continent
:07:27. > :07:36.across 32 nations, but some of the activities and operation to have a
:07:36. > :07:40.run in countries where it seems the opportunities for you to make money
:07:40. > :07:44.amid political uncertainty must be minimal. That has been built into
:07:44. > :07:51.our business model. We accept that there might be occasional problems
:07:51. > :07:54.in some countries. It is more than that. Surely you wake up as CEO,
:07:54. > :07:59.switch on the radio and wonder whether the assets you have been a
:07:59. > :08:09.country like Mali are still in existence? As we speak, we have put
:08:09. > :08:12.
:08:12. > :08:15.into practice in Mali. -- 42 branches. Is this a viable model?
:08:15. > :08:25.think in the long-term it is. Condition -- companies like
:08:25. > :08:32.Guinness, Nestle, Unilever, they have never left Africa. Mabey ask
:08:32. > :08:38.you how banks work in Africa? Across many countries in Africa, it
:08:38. > :08:44.will be different than people might be used to. How would you reach out
:08:44. > :08:50.to the hundreds of millions of Africans who will not necessarily
:08:51. > :08:55.see a bricks-and-mortar bank in that town? One aspect of banking in
:08:55. > :09:00.which Africa is a leader his mobile banking. There are more applicants
:09:00. > :09:05.using mobile banking platforms for payments than in any other part of
:09:05. > :09:10.the world. We have seen in nations like Kenya an extraordinary number
:09:10. > :09:19.of people doing their financial business by mobile telephone. How
:09:19. > :09:28.far can that go? My belief is that it can go very far. Kenya has up to
:09:28. > :09:36.60%. It is used for basic banking. I think that is really the bulk of
:09:37. > :09:43.banking for most people and Africa. Banking penetration in Africa will
:09:43. > :09:49.ride on top of mobile penetration. We can't get away from the trust
:09:50. > :09:53.issue. In the west we have had a profound problem with trusting
:09:53. > :10:03.banks that we have traditionally relied upon. Ken Africans trust
:10:03. > :10:04.
:10:04. > :10:14.African Bank's? I think they're doing so. And I think they should.
:10:14. > :10:16.
:10:16. > :10:20.Banking is a means for economic development. Banks are necessary.
:10:20. > :10:23.But to make a decision about whether or not to trust a financial
:10:23. > :10:27.institution, people need transparency and accountability.
:10:27. > :10:31.They need to know how a bank is being run and whether a reasonable
:10:32. > :10:40.risk is being taken. Whether the people running the banker a must.
:10:40. > :10:47.Can they be confident of the Avoca? I think the regulators and
:10:47. > :10:54.effort they have done a pretty good job. Let me bring a specific case
:10:54. > :10:59.to you. Oceanic Bank. Four years ago, I sat in the office of one of
:10:59. > :11:05.Nigeria's best known bankers. The CEO of oceanic band. She told me
:11:06. > :11:10.she was running a dynamic new sort of bank. Cheers -- she used some of
:11:10. > :11:16.the language used about her ambitions and hoped for Africa. Two
:11:16. > :11:21.years later, she was in prison, convicted of fraud and charged with
:11:21. > :11:25.$1 billion worth of ASIC fraud. You have taken over that Bank, how can
:11:25. > :11:31.we be sure that some of the practices she was responsible for
:11:31. > :11:38.had not continued? I think the Central Bank of Nigeria had two
:11:38. > :11:42.years to clean out the bend. Ecobank has a reputation across the
:11:42. > :11:47.two countries that it operates within full compliance of rules and
:11:47. > :11:51.regulations. But those rules and regulations failed to stop Oceanic
:11:51. > :11:55.Bank from open of many people in the past. Have they really been
:11:55. > :12:04.strengthened so much that it can never happen again? I don't think
:12:04. > :12:12.happen again. But in Africa, regulators have become more
:12:12. > :12:21.stringent to the sort of abuses just about banks. You are in a
:12:21. > :12:27.part of an part of an system. The economic Intelligence Unit did a
:12:27. > :12:35.very interesting survey of business perceptions in Africa. More than
:12:35. > :12:41.concern as corruption. The next biggest concern was barely out of
:12:41. > :12:44.governance and regulatory authority. -- failure of governments. These
:12:44. > :12:50.are profound problems you presumably have to deal with every
:12:50. > :12:56.day. Corruption is a matter of choice. We have taken the view that
:12:56. > :13:03.we would rather not go that part and run a b and run a bm. We
:13:03. > :13:10.band band that has integrity and which
:13:10. > :13:15.operates within the rules of the country. That is what we have done
:13:15. > :13:21.for the last 24 years. Your answer suggests that some of your
:13:21. > :13:27.competitors may take a different view. A view of cutting corners?
:13:27. > :13:34.can't speak, competitors. You must consider what the model will work.
:13:34. > :13:39.Before Ecobank, he worked for Citibank. I believe they had major
:13:39. > :13:42.operations in Latin America. It was almost a running joke in Citibank
:13:42. > :13:47.that you could either be a morally good band or you could be a
:13:47. > :13:52.successful band but not both. Is that the choice you have to make in
:13:52. > :13:58.Africa? We have chosen to be a good band. I think in the long run --
:13:58. > :14:02.the long run, could banks become successful. You think you can
:14:02. > :14:10.change the paradigm? I think if circumstances change, the paradigm
:14:10. > :14:16.something something many people want to know
:14:16. > :14:24.about. Are you confident that Ecobank and other African home-
:14:24. > :14:34.grown banks can co-exist with and thrive in an environment where
:14:34. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:39.outsiders increasingly want to get I am convinced that is the case.
:14:39. > :14:46.The largest banks in the UK are British. The largest banks in China
:14:46. > :14:53.are genies. I think the largest banks in Africa will be African.
:14:53. > :14:57.But they are not right now. They are on the way. Your profits are
:14:57. > :15:05.dwarfed by a Standard Chartered and JP Morgan. African banks are not
:15:05. > :15:08.tossing the growth. -- charting. are seeing African banks filling
:15:08. > :15:15.that space that has been left by the victories of international
:15:15. > :15:22.banks. Maybe that was the story of last decade but the story of this
:15:22. > :15:26.decade is different. JP Morgan are pouring investment into Africa.
:15:26. > :15:32.Standard Chartered are very proud of their expansion plan in Africa.
:15:32. > :15:39.This is a reality you have to face. I have been in this business for 22
:15:39. > :15:47.years. We have had this story before. Africa it is a strategy. We
:15:47. > :15:55.own one of the largest banks in Liberia. We will see. It is not
:15:55. > :15:59.just about Western banks. Perhaps more importantly is the question of
:15:59. > :16:09.China. It is pouring money into African economies. You cannot
:16:09. > :16:14.compete with them. But we can do business with them. It is a small
:16:14. > :16:20.operation. You have won a small office in Ghana. To take the
:16:20. > :16:24.example of Ghana, I believe the Chinese have offered various loan
:16:24. > :16:28.facilities to the Ghanaian government, worth more than a $10
:16:29. > :16:36.billion. A lot of the loan money that is going over to Ghanaian
:16:36. > :16:45.Enterprises coming -- enterprise is coming from China. I do not think
:16:45. > :16:51.that is a problem. We begin to play a role where we support government
:16:51. > :16:55.efforts. For example we have been financing crude oil exports from
:16:55. > :16:59.Nigeria to Ghana. Many foreign banks do not want to take the risk
:16:59. > :17:03.but we took the risk because we have operations in both countries.
:17:03. > :17:11.When you look good the new Chinese way of doing business in Africa and
:17:11. > :17:16.you know it is a no questions asked deal where China gets what it wants
:17:17. > :17:24.with commodities and in return it sells man defected goods to Africa,
:17:24. > :17:28.offering loan facilities and capital to Africans. Is it the sort
:17:28. > :17:34.of deal that you think is in the best interest of Africa's in the
:17:34. > :17:40.long run? China brings a different flavour to investing in Africa. It
:17:40. > :17:47.does not mean it is worse or better, it is different. Africa needs as
:17:47. > :17:53.much support and capital to develop its infrastructure, to develop its
:17:53. > :17:58.cities, to build power plants. That can come from the West or China. We
:17:58. > :18:04.have to decide in Africa the terms under which we accept the help.
:18:04. > :18:09.That is what most people are trying to come to terms with. It is a
:18:09. > :18:12.different approach to the West. It is not necessarily better or worse.
:18:12. > :18:16.Do you think African leaders are getting it right in terms of the
:18:16. > :18:21.deals they are striking? I am thinking of Angola where billions
:18:21. > :18:27.of dollars has been put in by the Chinese government. We know, for
:18:27. > :18:32.example, from NGO campaigners like Rafael Marques, a well-known
:18:32. > :18:36.Angolan activist, some of the highways built by the Chinese and
:18:36. > :18:40.the hospitals they have constructed, some of the housing they have put
:18:40. > :18:45.up, is of poor quality. Some is falling down only years after it
:18:45. > :18:55.has been built. That is not good for for Picken it is not just the
:18:55. > :18:55.
:18:55. > :18:59.Chinese that can build housing that falls down -- not good for Africa.
:18:59. > :19:04.In many markets we have seen if they have brought positive things.
:19:04. > :19:14.New stadiums, schools. They have done many positive things. It is
:19:14. > :19:16.
:19:16. > :19:20.easy to pick on one or two negative things. You have talked about York
:19:20. > :19:28.rove across Africa and we have talked about specific economy is
:19:28. > :19:38.but there seems to be a specific point to be made -- York -- your
:19:38. > :19:42.growth. Alongside the growth we have the growing gap between the
:19:42. > :19:51.poor and the rich. Inequality is growing as the size of the economy
:19:51. > :19:57.is growing. A business leader -- as a business leader in Africa what do
:19:57. > :20:03.you intend to do about it? Provide opportunities to alleviate their
:20:03. > :20:10.situation. We are also running microfinance bangs in advocates to
:20:10. > :20:15.focus on wealth-creation rather than poverty -- banks. So we are
:20:15. > :20:21.doing our little bit to support the development of Africa and reduce
:20:21. > :20:30.the gap between the rich and poor. This goes back to the beginning and
:20:30. > :20:34.me talking about this sense of African-ness, do you believe for
:20:34. > :20:39.the transformation to continue in Africa there has to be a more
:20:39. > :20:45.common purpose amongst African businesses and political leaders?
:20:45. > :20:49.So there must be more integration of the African economy? I think
:20:49. > :20:53.that is the case and that is beginning to happen. In the past
:20:53. > :20:58.the focus has been on fixing political issues, the Waughs and
:20:58. > :21:02.lack of democracy. As that is going away we are seeing a greater focus.
:21:02. > :21:07.I am spending a bottle time with decision-makers and we are trying
:21:07. > :21:12.to look at improving the economic well-being of countries. That is a
:21:12. > :21:17.good thing. Some of the African visionaries of the past talks about
:21:17. > :21:22.currency union and even a United States of Africa with a political
:21:22. > :21:27.union. If we are realistic we have seen some form of currency union in
:21:27. > :21:31.western Africa but beyond that it has never happened. In terms of
:21:31. > :21:37.freedom of movement, free Labour movement, border controls, all
:21:37. > :21:45.sorts of other things, Africa, far from co-ordinating and into racing,
:21:45. > :21:51.seems as fragmented as ever? -- integrating. That is ours entirely
:21:51. > :21:56.true. Five African communities came together to form a union. -- that
:21:56. > :22:01.is not. What you are seeing is different stages of development
:22:01. > :22:11.across Africa but the direction is clear. The direction is towards
:22:11. > :22:13.
:22:13. > :22:21.greater integration. We have Togo and Cote d'Ivoire with much larger
:22:21. > :22:24.economies. Togo needs to integrate. Many African leaders are thinking
:22:24. > :22:31.along these lines. I have to ask you about the leadership of the
:22:31. > :22:34.World Bank. There was a great hope in Africa that the Nigerian Finance
:22:34. > :22:39.Minister Ngozi would get the job. She wanted the job but she did not
:22:39. > :22:43.get the job and now she says she is bitter because it was not a fair
:22:43. > :22:51.fight. Do you believe that was a symbolic moment when the West
:22:51. > :22:55.showed it still does not get it when it comes to the changing and -
:22:55. > :23:03.- economies in Africa? I do not think she is better. She put up a
:23:04. > :23:08.good five. She was angry. She may have been angry -- fight.
:23:08. > :23:14.Ibrahim, the leading philanthropist, says if the West thinks it can
:23:14. > :23:18.lecture us about transparency and accountability and then handle the
:23:18. > :23:23.leadership of the World Bank like this, it has another thing coming.
:23:23. > :23:33.I think the West needs to change. What she has done is cut across
:23:33. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:38.that. I think that is what our bank has also tried to do. I think
:23:38. > :23:43.others will come a long and probably do better. Final question.
:23:43. > :23:47.You are quitting your post. Why are you doing that when we just spent
:23:47. > :23:52.the whole conversation talking about the rise of Africa? It seems
:23:52. > :23:56.like you are getting out as the plane is taking off. We have a
:23:56. > :24:03.mandatory retirement age of 60. I want to spend more time with my
:24:03. > :24:06.family. I think my wife and my kids deserve to see more of me than they
:24:06. > :24:13.have done in the past. Will you still the building business in
:24:14. > :24:18.Africa? Certainly. That is by passion. The Africa of the future