:01:15. > :01:23.Philip Glass, welcome to HARDtalk. You are here in London to put on a
:01:23. > :01:33.revival of the epic piece, Einstein on the Beach. Do you feel yourself
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:43.to be the same artist now as you were then? No Mac. I have liveried
:01:43. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:06.memories -- no. I have bid vivid We are not an opera company.
:02:06. > :02:09.
:02:09. > :02:14.Pomegranate Arts by helping us put it together. -- are helping us.
:02:14. > :02:24.That peace is more than five hours long. Does it feel like you are
:02:24. > :02:25.
:02:25. > :02:35.where you are out, musically? -- that piece. No. But it is not the
:02:35. > :02:45.same as when we first did it. The images are the same and the little
:02:45. > :02:47.
:02:47. > :02:57.clips you have seen a more or less what you will see here. -- are more.
:02:57. > :03:22.
:03:22. > :03:32.Philip Glass, as we continue to see the images there, talked to me
:03:32. > :03:38.about the music and sound. We have the incantation of numbers. Why? I
:03:38. > :03:42.was writing highly structured, repetitive music. When I was
:03:42. > :03:51.teaching it to the singers... Some of them were dancers - we combined
:03:51. > :03:57.a dance and vocal company. A lot of young people do dance and singing
:03:58. > :04:03.together. Those were the kids we were working with. In order to get
:04:03. > :04:10.them to memorise it, I worked out a number scheme that you heard a
:04:10. > :04:12.little bit of. It is like a pattern of numbers. If you learn the
:04:13. > :04:19.pattern and you say it correctly the peace will come out right. I
:04:19. > :04:22.have watched an awful lot more than that one clip and what we see in
:04:22. > :04:26.Einstein on the Beach is fascinating choreography and images
:04:27. > :04:33.and music which sticks in your head but it is not about anything. There
:04:33. > :04:38.is no story or narrative. That is a good point. When Bob and I began
:04:38. > :04:45.this piece, we were meeting for about a year and we knew each
:04:45. > :04:53.other's work. He was doing big, all night theatre pieces and I was
:04:53. > :05:03.doing extended music pieces. We began talking about this. We
:05:03. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:17.decided to do a piece that... He had done pieces on Sigmund Freud
:05:17. > :05:27.and Stalin too. For this one you chose Einstein but he does not
:05:27. > :05:32.
:05:32. > :05:36.What you have said, I think, about it, while it is not supposed to be
:05:36. > :05:40.full of obvious meaning, it is an exploration of space and time and
:05:40. > :05:46.the thoughts Einstein was having about our planet and its place in
:05:46. > :05:52.the Universe. The idea of our subject, for Bob, he wanted
:05:52. > :05:56.something that everybody would know who the person was. He said, "If we
:05:56. > :06:01.do a story about Einstein, everyone knows who he is so we do not have
:06:01. > :06:06.to tell a story." We do a piece in which Einstein appears and the
:06:06. > :06:12.images of trains and spaceships and elevators are Things That Einstein
:06:12. > :06:22.used to use to explain his theory of relativity to people like you
:06:22. > :06:27.
:06:27. > :06:31.and me. Bob took this imagery and made the visual imagery of those.
:06:31. > :06:38.Besides doing those things, Bob through when something that was
:06:38. > :06:45.very interesting - to make big dance pieces choreographed by
:06:45. > :06:55.Lucinda Childs, also one of the major actors in the peace. He had a
:06:55. > :07:05.
:07:05. > :07:15.We would ask the actors what they would think it was about and they
:07:15. > :07:20.
:07:20. > :07:27.Do you remember the expression,"Science is on trial"?
:07:27. > :07:35.Around 1976, critics looking at your music, your pieces, you use
:07:35. > :07:45.the word opera, critics were looking at it and being extremely
:07:45. > :07:48.
:07:48. > :07:58.negative. One critic called it" sonic torture". There is a lot of
:07:58. > :08:08.humouring it too. -- humour in it. To me it is like a Buster Keaton
:08:08. > :08:14.duo. There is a speech that one of the judges makes at the trial about
:08:14. > :08:23.women's liberation which is hilariously funny. It is not five
:08:23. > :08:29.hours of heavy, serious theatre. There are funny things that happen,
:08:29. > :08:35.there is music and dance. The audience completes the story by
:08:35. > :08:40.telling it themselves. The other remarkable thing to realise about
:08:40. > :08:44.your life at this particular time, in the 70s, when you were making a
:08:44. > :08:53.name as the minimalist composer, is that you were not even a full-time
:08:53. > :08:57.artist, you were driving a New York taxicab. I did that from four
:08:57. > :09:05.o'clock until 11 o'clock and then I worked on my music from midnight
:09:05. > :09:09.until six o'clock. In those days, New York was a different place. I
:09:09. > :09:13.could work three or four days at the most and earn enough money to
:09:13. > :09:19.support my family. It was a much less expensive place to live in
:09:19. > :09:23.those days. I would spend three or four days working and writing at
:09:23. > :09:32.night and have the other three or four days. It runs counter to so
:09:32. > :09:37.much of the way in which high art, if we can put it like that, works
:09:37. > :09:42.these days. Many artists survive on subsidies and grants these days. In
:09:42. > :09:47.New York, the chances are that the waiter and the driver of the cab is
:09:47. > :09:53.a poet or a writer or actor. Many people have day jobs. Is it better
:09:53. > :09:58.for creativity for it to be that way? It is hard to say. On the one
:09:58. > :10:03.hand, the well subsidised cultures, the work tends not to be that
:10:03. > :10:10.interesting. I am not sure why that is. The people that have to work
:10:10. > :10:16.harder at it, as we say in America, the things that don't kill you make
:10:16. > :10:23.you stronger. The survival, the commitment, the focus and stamina
:10:23. > :10:31.it takes to live a double life, and many people do that, you develop a
:10:31. > :10:37.commitment to the work which goes beyond. You do not take a day off.
:10:37. > :10:43.Is that true now? I used sitting in a studio for eight hours a day,
:10:43. > :10:47.writing? I do not have the day jobs anymore. You quit the taxi. I am
:10:47. > :10:53.performing too. I have another life. I began performing about that time
:10:53. > :10:58.too. Let's get back to the 70s and 80s and the development of your
:10:58. > :11:07.career. I call to a polarising figure. Many people could not
:11:07. > :11:12.figure out what you were. -- I called you. I have used the phrase,
:11:12. > :11:22.minimalist. He collaborated with people like David Bowley and Bryony
:11:22. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:35.know. -- David Bowie and Brian Eno. I work with all kinds of people.
:11:35. > :11:44.Did you ever try and do find yourself to yourself? That was not
:11:44. > :11:48.the point. -- define yourself. I work with people from different
:11:49. > :11:53.parts of the world, from Africa, China, Australia. I was interested
:11:53. > :12:03.in these encounters, encounters with people who did not have the
:12:03. > :12:04.
:12:04. > :12:08.same background. I went to the University of Chicago, I went to
:12:08. > :12:18.the Julie Owens School of Music, I was in music school for virtually
:12:18. > :12:23.
:12:23. > :12:26.20 years. -- Juilliard. Let's get to the heart of that question that
:12:26. > :12:35.you posed and I mentioned at the beginning of this interview. What
:12:35. > :12:39.his music? Many people would say music is an aural way of expressing
:12:40. > :12:48.the promotion, feeling, spirituality. Many people then
:12:48. > :12:58.listen to your music and find it very cold, mathematical and lacking
:12:58. > :12:59.
:12:59. > :13:08.in emotion. -- expressing the emotion. I heard that criticism a
:13:08. > :13:10.lot earlier. The music has changed somewhat. You brought up another
:13:11. > :13:15.interesting question about working with all of these different people
:13:15. > :13:20.and what it means to me. What I became convinced of was that the
:13:20. > :13:27.only difference between musicians and artists was the kind of talent
:13:27. > :13:32.they have, and it wasn't a question of gender, age, cultural background.
:13:32. > :13:38.The reason I worked with those people was because they were so
:13:38. > :13:48.talented. Composers traditionally took melodies from popular music
:13:48. > :13:50.
:13:50. > :13:59.and put it into symphonies, so I The second question about what
:13:59. > :14:08.music is, that is an interesting question. I have been playing since
:14:08. > :14:18.I was six years old. I picked up the piano well as 15. My brother
:14:18. > :14:27.
:14:27. > :14:33.was taking piano lessons and I At 15, I was asking the question,
:14:33. > :14:39.where does music come from? I thought, if I began to write music
:14:39. > :14:44.I could find out. I spend the next decades writing music and I never
:14:44. > :14:50.found out. Then I realised I was answering the wrong question. The
:14:50. > :14:56.question was, what was music? My next answer was, this has been a
:14:56. > :15:02.lifetime of thinking, music is the most eloquent language that human
:15:02. > :15:07.beings use to communicate with each other. People could say was
:15:07. > :15:12.painting or poetry, may be a social scientist will say to his customers.
:15:12. > :15:20.It is interesting you call it an eloquent language. There are very
:15:21. > :15:29.well-informed critics and other composers, one who has written
:15:29. > :15:35.recently, she wrote in a magazine, looking at your opus, saying,
:15:35. > :15:39.people like Bach, they had so many ideas. They developed many ideas in
:15:39. > :15:43.their music. The problem with Philip Glass is that he has one
:15:43. > :15:50.idea and he beats you senseless with it. When you hear that kind of
:15:50. > :15:57.thing what is your response? should listen to the music. There
:15:57. > :16:02.are 24 operas. There are 30 ballets. You understand the point? There is
:16:02. > :16:07.all this work but a lot of it sounds the same? But you have to
:16:07. > :16:14.listen and pay attention. This is not the problem of the composer.
:16:14. > :16:20.Plenty of people were here at the Barbican. It will be sold out every
:16:20. > :16:25.night. Plenty of people do not agree with that. It is a purse --
:16:25. > :16:33.perfectly intelligent opinion. It has get back to the question. It is
:16:33. > :16:41.an interesting question. I became satisfied with the language answer.
:16:41. > :16:48.He did not get to the mystery. Of music especially. Later, not very
:16:48. > :16:57.long ago, I was giving a talk to people. Someone said, Mr Glass,
:16:57. > :17:05.what his music? For I said, I did not know what I would say, music is
:17:05. > :17:11.a place. It is as real as Chicago or Indianapolis. It is an absolute
:17:11. > :17:17.place. Once you know whether places you can go there. That is my kind
:17:17. > :17:21.answer. It is not my last one, I have gone through three. I like
:17:21. > :17:31.that answer. It gives me a sense of what you are about. Coming back to
:17:31. > :17:35.this point, which people have alighted upon, the volume at which
:17:35. > :17:42.which you have become a pragmatist who will write music on commission,
:17:42. > :17:50.whether it is for a film, or even for a TV commercial, that has led
:17:50. > :17:57.to some people who love classical music to say you are a sell-out?
:17:57. > :18:03.love this discussion. I find nothing wrong with that. I went to
:18:03. > :18:08.my father's record store when I was a kid. At 12, I worked in the store,
:18:08. > :18:12.then I bought records from the store. One of the first things I
:18:12. > :18:18.saw, one of my earliest memories, someone came to the counter and
:18:18. > :18:22.gave my father $5 he gave them a record. A very simple transaction.
:18:22. > :18:28.I thought my father was a good guy. They did not see anything wrong
:18:28. > :18:35.with that. You think there are some snobs in Pascal music to have a
:18:35. > :18:40.problem with commercialism? I've did not use that word. What I have
:18:40. > :18:47.cherished more than anything else is independence. I have not worked
:18:47. > :18:54.at a school ever. I have all the degrees and I could have. And never
:18:54. > :18:59.was asked to. I wanted to be have to live on with my music. It was
:19:00. > :19:08.until 41, I had a day-job. At that point he began to make a living
:19:08. > :19:12.writing music. That has been 35 years. Something you said, was the
:19:12. > :19:17.disjunction between some of the opera and Symphony works you have
:19:17. > :19:25.written and the ads for big corporates you have done. You said,
:19:25. > :19:32.in response, a chef, a gourmet chef once in while may enjoy cooking a
:19:32. > :19:41.Berger. If you cook too many burgers, do you begin to lose some
:19:41. > :19:49.of the need skills you need? A good point. I'm still doing the Gourmet
:19:49. > :19:59.Cookery. This year I wrote a ninth and 10th Symphony. I'd done a few
:19:59. > :19:59.
:19:59. > :20:05.commercials, I would say, my vocation is writing classical music.
:20:05. > :20:11.I do not mind writing commercials. There is a point to that as well.
:20:11. > :20:19.Winner fellow comes to work in my studio, I say what are you doing?
:20:19. > :20:25.They may say I want to write art music. How will denote, -- harmony
:20:25. > :20:32.and composition? You have to go back and learn that. You cannot do
:20:32. > :20:39.classical music without knowing what you're doing. Commercial music
:20:39. > :20:46.cannot take too much of your time. You need a solid technique. That is
:20:46. > :20:54.good advice. Hit me ask you about radicalism? You said you were
:20:54. > :20:58.involved and changed, -- evolved and changed. In the 60s, you were
:20:58. > :21:08.seen as a radical composer, you took music in a different
:21:08. > :21:11.
:21:11. > :21:15.direction? You questioned the status quo. A few years ago, one of
:21:15. > :21:17.your pieces was on at the Metropolitan. A few of the
:21:17. > :21:24.protesters were outside the metropolitan and you went to talk
:21:24. > :21:27.to them. Did you talk to them as a representative of the musical
:21:27. > :21:33.establishment, order to identify with their message about the 1%
:21:33. > :21:40.against the 99%. I had met them the week before. They had joined --
:21:40. > :21:48.asked me to join him at the practice. I said, I will. I did a
:21:48. > :21:53.Mike check with them. I came out, it was the last performance of a
:21:53. > :21:59.film about the non-violent movement Dundee had started. This was a non-
:21:59. > :22:04.violent movement. They did not know it, they are based on that history.
:22:04. > :22:14.Of Mahatma Gandhi. I had a text I wanted to lose. It was the end of
:22:14. > :22:16.
:22:16. > :22:26.the opera, where people are talking about action and none action. He
:22:26. > :22:28.
:22:28. > :22:38.says, remember, I come into the world to force the ball back and
:22:38. > :22:39.
:22:39. > :22:43.put virtual on her seat again. you are worth, from a fantastically
:22:43. > :22:53.successful career, tens of millions of dollars, if you have become
:22:53. > :22:53.
:22:53. > :22:58.famous, can you be a radical? never said I was. The person I
:22:58. > :23:04.wrote the opera about was a from historical material. I never
:23:04. > :23:10.thought I was a radical. That was how I was characterised. I came
:23:10. > :23:19.into a world with a musical world was dedicated to very abstract
:23:19. > :23:25.music. It is 12 Time Music, music that people do not like to hear. --
:23:25. > :23:32.12 tone music. I wanted to go back to a tonal basis and at a rhythmic
:23:32. > :23:36.structure to it. I want to plant more Crich -- one more quick
:23:36. > :23:41.thought. You once said the hardest thing for a musician is not for
:23:41. > :23:48.them to find their own voice but to get rid of it. And find a new way
:23:48. > :23:52.to do things. Have you done that? have done that with my
:23:52. > :23:58.collaborations. They have been a way for me to put myself and a
:23:58. > :24:03.place I have not been before. In order to work from a person from